Also in the News - Part 2

[David Hankey]

'Bojo', as per usual, will do what he wants and will get away with it until he is found out. A thoroughly despicable individual.

[weller54]

3 hours ago, RobHawk said:

Agreed, I don't believe in conservative politics but there was once a time we could discuss it and disagree. 

 

The Tory party as is (or at least a part of it) is the lowest of the low. It's beyond policies, it's outright criminal. 

Right wing extremists now 🤬🤬!!.. 

Dangerous lot! 

[Sampson]

3 hours ago, RobHawk said:

Agreed, I don't believe in conservative politics but there was once a time we could discuss it and disagree. 

 

The Tory party as is (or at least a part of it) is the lowest of the low. It's beyond policies, it's outright criminal. 

I do wonder sometimes how David Cameron sleeps at night by opening Pandora’s box with a referendum that had little appetite or debate for in the general public, but was to shut down a pretty minor internal party issue, then cowardly walking away and letting the hard right and the corrupt take over his party and the country. 

[David Hankey]

9 minutes ago, Sampson said:

I do wonder sometimes how David Cameron sleeps at night by opening Pandora’s box with a referendum that had little appetite or debate for in the general public, but was to shut down a pretty minor internal party issue, then cowardly walking away and letting the hard right and the corrupt take over his party and the country. 

I, too, wonder how many of our politicians sleep at night. Across the board there are too many miscreants who adopt a "do as I please attitude" instead of representing their constituents, those who elected them. For so many MPs it is life on the 'Gravy Train'.

[Bordersfox]

1 hour ago, Sampson said:

I do wonder sometimes how David Cameron sleeps at night by opening Pandora’s box with a referendum that had little appetite or debate for in the general public, but was to shut down a pretty minor internal party issue, then cowardly walking away and letting the hard right and the corrupt take over his party and the country. 

I suspect, puffed up with his Etonian imbued sense of entitlement and over confidence, that he sleeps just fine after a leisurely day spent in his luxury shepherd's hut.  Trotters up.  

Edited 16 June 2023 by Bordersfox

[HighPeakFox]

It should be a privilege to serve as an MP - sadly, too many see it as their right.

[David Hankey]

16 minutes ago, HighPeakFox said:

It should be a privilege to serve as an MP - sadly, too many see it as their right.

Many, unfortunately, do not understand the meaning of the word, privilege and certainly not honourable.

 

Many are in it for what they can get out of it, not interested in their constituents but just happy to ride on the 'Gravy Train'  -  and at our expense!!

Edited 16 June 2023 by David Hankey

[SpacedX]

27 minutes ago, HighPeakFox said:

It should be a privilege to serve as an MP - sadly, too many see it as their right.

And should be a privilege to serve the public - yet the same people are so self-serving. 

[iniesta]

Talk of the Conservative Party being far right or even right for that matter, should be taking place in the conspiracy/tin foil hat thread. 

[Sampson]

The 500 migrants being lost in the Mediterranean, hundreds likely dead, probably one of the worst disasters in modern European history being about the 6th story on the BBC website shows how sad it is that these people have been successfully dehumanised by the British press so much.

 

You can claim it’s because it’s not local, but a story about a rockfall having a near-miss on a Swiss village is one story above it.

[leicsmac]

7 hours ago, iniesta said:

Talk of the Conservative Party being far right or even right for that matter, should be taking place in the conspiracy/tin foil hat thread. 

I guess it depends on one's perspective.

 

However, looking at social policies, the Overton Window in the UK is demonstrably further to the right than practically any OECD country outside of the US (ever the Scripture-thumping outlier in such matters) and perhaps a couple of the East Asian countries. I think that's a matter of record.

 

4 hours ago, Sampson said:

The 500 migrants being lost in the Mediterranean, hundreds likely dead, probably one of the worst disasters in modern European history being about the 6th story on the BBC website shows how sad it is that these people have been successfully dehumanised by the British press so much.

 

You can claim it’s because it’s not local, but a story about a rockfall having a near-miss on a Swiss village is one story above it.

And this "othering" of people not immediately in one's line of sight spatially and temporally is additional evidence of the above.

[leicsmac]

https://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-us-canada-65936994

 

"President Joe Biden was speaking at the National Safer Communities Summit in Connecticut, calling for tougher gun control laws when he seemingly confused the audience by closing his speech with the phrase "God Save the Queen". "

 

The guy isn't there all the time, that's all there is to it. A reason why he wasn't my first or even my tenth choice.

 

However, picking him over any Repub option was a simple reasonably easy and obvious empirical matter of "less harm". It's just a shame that the US saw fit to make that the binary choice in the first place because apparently too many folks are so afraid of caring about other people beyond their own line of sight.

Edited 17 June 2023 by leicsmac

[iniesta]

10 hours ago, leicsmac said:

I guess it depends on one's perspective.

 

However, looking at social policies, the Overton Window in the UK is demonstrably further to the right than practically any OECD country outside of the US (ever the Scripture-thumping outlier in such matters) and perhaps a couple of the East Asian countries. I think that's a matter of record.

 

And this "othering" of people not immediately in one's line of sight spatially and temporally is additional evidence of the above.

What Tory social policies are far right/right?

 

Just look at a list of the OECD countries - I take it you haven’t been to some of them in some time, they are miles away from being more ‘progressive’ than the UK.

[leicsmac]

6 minutes ago, iniesta said:

What Tory social policies are far right/right?

 

Just look at a list of the OECD countries - I take it you haven’t been to some of them in some time, they are miles away from being more ‘progressive’ than the UK.

Actually, you're right, Hungary under Orban and Turkey under Erdogan are there, as well as a couple of other questionable candidates.

 

I would stipulate that the extreme difficulty of gaining legal immigration routes and "hostile environment" policy is rather skewed to the right, as is the drug policy and the lack of adequate funding for both universal healthcare systems and education, believing that private options for both are better, though they may come under economic rather than social policy.

[Zear0]

13 minutes ago, iniesta said:

What Tory social policies are far right/right?

 

Just look at a list of the OECD countries - I take it you haven’t been to some of them in some time, they are miles away from being more ‘progressive’ than the UK.

UK conservatism has traditionally been more left than global conservatives.  It's a bit daft to just cherry pick social policies when economically they're about the most right-wing in the world (see below).

 

Regarding social policies that are right wing:

• Minimum service level bill (anti-strike bill).  I'd say this is both economical and social as it's a attach on individuals rights.
• 2 child welfare cap that literally puts children into poverty.
• Rwanda...
• Crime and policing bill
• Health and care act removing the requirement for the NHS to provide care for all (privitisation)

Just because we're not as far right as Italy, Poland or Hungary does not mean we're some left leaning nation.  By practically any measure, this is the most right-wing government in living memory. 

 

https://www.ft.com/content/d5f1d564-8c08-4711-b11d-9c6c7759f2b8

 

 

 

 

[Grebfromgrebland]

Add to that the policing bill and illegal migration bill. That puts us closer to Russia and Hungary than the rest of the Western world.

[iniesta]

49 minutes ago, Zear0 said:

UK conservatism has traditionally been more left than global conservatives.  It's a bit daft to just cherry pick social policies when economically they're about the most right-wing in the world (see below).

 

Regarding social policies that are right wing:

• Minimum service level bill (anti-strike bill).  I'd say this is both economical and social as it's a attach on individuals rights.
• 2 child welfare cap that literally puts children into poverty.
• Rwanda...
• Crime and policing bill
• Health and care act removing the requirement for the NHS to provide care for all (privitisation)

Just because we're not as far right as Italy, Poland or Hungary does not mean we're some left leaning nation.  By practically any measure, this is the most right-wing government in living memory. 

 

https://www.ft.com/content/d5f1d564-8c08-4711-b11d-9c6c7759f2b8

 

 

 

 

I did not cherry pick anything - the previous poster mentioned social policies and I asked what they were. The Tories are further to the left than 97 New Labour - (gay marriage - illegal under Mr Blair) would you describe them as fascistic?

 

I am not sticking up for the Tories, I probably hate them more than you, but for different reasons - but to describe them as right wing/far right is laughable and disingenuous. 

[iniesta]

55 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

Actually, you're right, Hungary under Orban and Turkey under Erdogan are there, as well as a couple of other questionable candidates.

 

I would stipulate that the extreme difficulty of gaining legal immigration routes and "hostile environment" policy is rather skewed to the right, as is the drug policy and the lack of adequate funding for both universal healthcare systems and education, believing that private options for both are better, though they may come under economic rather than social policy.

There is no drug policy in this country - go in to any pub / nightclub and you’ll see it is not policed. 
 

hostile environment when we are experiencing record immigration levels? Really?

 

Is the NHS underfunded - or managed badly? They seem to get a lot of money. 

[leicsmac]

1 minute ago, iniesta said:

There is no drug policy in this country - go in to any pub / nightclub and you’ll see it is not policed. 
 

hostile environment when we are experiencing record immigration levels? Really?

 

Is the NHS underfunded - or managed badly? They seem to get a lot of money. 

Well, yes. Intent matters and those are the exact words of the policy. To say nothing of the whole Rwanda matter.

 

WRT the NHS, health outcomes didn't seem to be this much of a problem under a Labour government, bad management or not. That would suggest it is indeed a funding rather than personnel issue.

 

NB. A comment on the previous post; gay marriage is something of a cherry-pick on social policy that a great deal of the rank and file Tories were against at the time and was likely part of the coalition deal with the Lib Dems anyway - would they have done it with a majority of their own? I really think it is itself disingenuous to suggest that the Tories are in fact more progressive on LGBT policy than either of the other "big" UK parties, either in 1997, 2010 or today.

 

[Jon the Hat]

I agree, the Tory leadership have certainly left me well behind.

[Daggers]

1 hour ago, iniesta said:

There is no drug policy in this country - go in to any pub / nightclub and you’ll see it is not policed. 
 

hostile environment when we are experiencing record immigration levels? Really?

 

Is the NHS underfunded - or managed badly? They seem to get a lot of money. 

Good trolling 😂

[iniesta]

1 hour ago, leicsmac said:

Well, yes. Intent matters and those are the exact words of the policy. To say nothing of the whole Rwanda matter.

 

WRT the NHS, health outcomes didn't seem to be this much of a problem under a Labour government, bad management or not. That would suggest it is indeed a funding rather than personnel issue.

 

NB. A comment on the previous post; gay marriage is something of a cherry-pick on social policy that a great deal of the rank and file Tories were against at the time and was likely part of the coalition deal with the Lib Dems anyway - would they have done it with a majority of their own? I really think it is itself disingenuous to suggest that the Tories are in fact more progressive on LGBT policy than either of the other "big" UK parties, either in 1997, 2010 or today.

 

Yes, I’m sure Tony Blair’s figures for health outcomes were just as legitimate as his crime statistics.

They quite clearly are more progressive than New Labour, nothing disingenuous about it. Would a far right government allow LGBT groups within its ranks? 

 

[leicsmac]

14 minutes ago, iniesta said:

Yes, I’m sure Tony Blair’s figures for health outcomes were just as legitimate as his crime statistics.

They quite clearly are more progressive than New Labour, nothing disingenuous about it. Would a far right government allow LGBT groups within its ranks? 

 

They were more progressive in 2010 than New Labour in 1997, not more progressive at the same time - that's the disingenuous part here. FWIW I personally don't think the Tories have been hard right on that issue since Section 28, but it's simply untrue that they have been more socially progressive on the matter than other leading parties at the same moment in time.

 

And while figures might possibly be cooked in the way described in the first sentence, if we cannot use them then the entire discussion is redundant because nothing can be proven.

[iniesta]

3 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

They were more progressive in 2010 than New Labour in 1997, not more progressive at the same time - that's the disingenuous part here. FWIW I personally don't think the Tories have been hard right on that issue since Section 28, but it's simply untrue that they have been more socially progressive on the matter than other leading parties at the same moment in time.

 

And while figures might possibly be cooked in the way described in the first sentence, if we cannot use them then the entire discussion is redundant because nothing can be proven.

Im not here to be a Tory apologist, I’m just sick of hearing that they are far-right. In my view, they hold no conservative values or principles, they are a liberal party. There is a cigarette paper between all 3 of our so-called main parties. 

 

You spoke earlier about the Overton window being skewed to the right, do you realise how ridiculous that sounds to somebody with genuine right wing views (not this ‘conservative’ party)? 

[leicsmac]

1 minute ago, iniesta said:

Im not here to be a Tory apologist, I’m just sick of hearing that they are far-right. In my view, they hold no conservative values or principles, they are a liberal party. There is a cigarette paper between all 3 of our so-called main parties. 

 

You spoke earlier about the Overton window being skewed to the right, do you realise how ridiculous that sounds to somebody with genuine right wing views (not this ‘conservative’ party)? 

Yep, I said that and I stand by the assertion that the UK Conservative party in terms of overall social policy (not just individual parts of it) and other policies too is more right wing than many comparable countries in the OECD, and that such a party has gained a plurality of votes in the UK means the Overton Window is tilted more rightwards in the UK than in a lot of those comparable places. Evidently we disagree there, and fair enough - it's certainly not something I can prove scientifically, so assertion is all I have.

 

NB. With respect, you're welcome to your "genuine right wing" views as anyone in a democratic society is, but if I am getting the definition of that term correct, I am likewise free to say that other people holding such viewpoints have presented (and in some cases still present) an actual threat to the health of friends and people I hold dear, both legislatively (not in the UK) and literally (in the UK). And that is to say nothing of the casual disregard for the future both natural and human that often comes with it. So, it's safe to say our worldviews do not align.