Also in the News - Part 2

[Jon the Hat]

12 hours ago, Lionator said:

When look at the association between childhood neglect/trauma and gender dysphoria then it probably isn't a good idea to report the child to the people who have inflicted suffering upon them.

Most of these kids don’t have gender disphoria though, they just don’t fit the current stereotype and are being encouraged to believe the myth that this means they are in fact the opposite sex.  Which is criminally negligent bullshit, especially when factors such as those you mention are not properly explored.

[Jon the Hat]

5 hours ago, Captain... said:

The very clumsily worded Sun article is implying that teachers have to warn parents of any evidence of trans behaviour.

 

That's really not the case as it later goes onto say that safeguarding will be top priority. 

 

As I've said above they need to protect the children and the teachers and teachers accepting someone's trans identity without consulting the parents could, sadly, lead to threats, protests, legal action and violence.

 

It's a simple solution that will give teachers an out if asked to use someone's trans identity without causing offence. I can use your trans identity if your parents give permission. If the parents are going to freak at the idea of a trans child then it is probably not a good idea for a teacher to use that name/pronouns in public as it will easily get back to them.

 

 

The fact is that teachers do not have the right to decide whether a child can change their name and pronouns.  It's not their remit.  They have responsibilities regarding what they can and cannot report to parents, and that is not at issue here.  As long as the stay within their remit, they will have no issues.  Unfortunately, there are an increasing number of cases where teachers have done just that, and this is directed at stopping that.  

[Jon the Hat]

12 hours ago, Lionator said:

It's basically genocide of Trans people through the back door (aka drive them to suicide). 

You need to stop reading Mermaids / Stonewall nonsense.

[Jon the Hat]

12 hours ago, leicsmac said:

Yeah, that's fair. The issue is that the "some people" I mention often do have the power and influence to act exactly in the way you describe here.

 

And when that is combined with an issue like this, you have both Hanlons and Greys Laws/Razor happening. Paraphrased:

 

"Never attribute to malice what can be explained by ignorance, but any sufficiently advanced incompetence/ignorance is indistinguishable from malice".

Yes we must not trust parents to know their children.  Obviously teachers who spend far less time with them, often with 30+ other kids in the room, are much better informed.  Honestly they cannot even get bullying under control in most schools.  If they could we wouldn't have so many miserable kids looking for a way to escape.

[Jon the Hat]

6 hours ago, LiberalFox said:

I'm surprised people are giving this so much attention.

 

It's designed to appeal to conservative people who believe that children are being 'transed' (cis children somehow groomed or brainwashed into believing they are trans). Also designed to appeal to the same people who think half the girl's sports teams are filled with cis boys who pretend to be girls. Oh and cis boys identifying as trans to go into the girl's toilets. None of this shit happens in the real world of course. 

 

I don't think these rules are saying that teachers have to report children to their parents for not being boyish/girlish enough. At least I hope that isn't the case. 

 

 

I think it is pretty poor the way you belittle the interests of women and girls.  There are stories every day, all the way up to the top of elite sport of trans women unfairly competing against women.  They are unfairly taking the opportunities of women and girls.  They can quite fairly continue to compete in the mens category, they are not being excluded from anything.  Those losing out are the comment and girls who lose points, places sponsorship and opportunity every single time they are beaten by a male athlete.

[ozleicester]

53 minutes ago, Jon the Hat said:

 

 

43 minutes ago, Jon the Hat said:

 

 

40 minutes ago, Jon the Hat said:

 

 

38 minutes ago, Jon the Hat said:

 

 

25 minutes ago, Jon the Hat said:

 

You dont know ANYTHING about these young and you clearly dont give two shits about them. Just care about maintaining your self centred and blinkered view of the world.

[leicsmac]

1 hour ago, Jon the Hat said:

Yes we must not trust parents to know their children.  Obviously teachers who spend far less time with them, often with 30+ other kids in the room, are much better informed.  Honestly they cannot even get bullying under control in most schools.  If they could we wouldn't have so many miserable kids looking for a way to escape.

Some parents are abusive. Some parents are bigoted. (The headlines written by the Sun/Mail are designed to appeal to exactly that, otherwise they wouldn't do it because they wouldn't sell.) Some parents are both.

 

Of course, a fair few teachers aren't role models either, which is why you don't place the entire responsibility for safeguarding a child on any one party, especially on a matter like this. If a child approaches a teacher (on another third party) with information they want to keep secret from their parents because it may lead to abuse if they disclose it (or this matter or otherwise), then that should be taken seriously, rather than simply assuming the parents know best and informing them no matter what.

[Jon the Hat]

3 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

Some parents are abusive. Some parents are bigoted. (The headlines written by the Sun/Mail are designed to appeal to exactly that, otherwise they wouldn't do it because they wouldn't sell.) Some parents are both.

 

Of course, a fair few teachers aren't role models either, which is why you don't place the entire responsibility for safeguarding a child on any one party, especially on a matter like this. If a child approaches a teacher (on another third party) with information they want to keep secret from their parents because it may lead to abuse if they disclose it (or this matter or otherwise), then that should be taken seriously, rather than simply assuming the parents know best and informing them no matter what.

I literally said that above, but that is not the same as supporting name change / pronouns without parental consent.

[leicsmac]

Just now, Jon the Hat said:

I literally said that above, but that is not the same as supporting name change / pronouns without parental consent.

That would depend very much on the situation, though I would add that if a kid wanted to change their names and pronouns and was afraid of their parents response to the degree they didn't want their consent, but wanted to do it anyway, then it would be more than just a teacher that would have to become involved because that would then be a child protection issue.

[Jon the Hat]

45 minutes ago, ozleicester said:

You dont know ANYTHING about these young and you clearly dont give two shits about them. Just care about maintaining your self centred and blinkered view of the world.

On the contrary, unlike most people commenting I currently have children in both primary and secondary school.  I care a great deal.  I am also very supportive of kids being themselves, I just don't believe that buying into the gender trans nonsense is an any way a positive thing for the kids.  I am also very concerned that those transitioning are primarily gay kids, and this whole movement is homophobic.  There are so many concerns that I find it hard to comprehend how anyone can be fully supportive and not question it.  For those who genuinely have gender dysphoria, I have sympathy, but in the main this is not what we are talking about.

[leicsmac]

3 minutes ago, Jon the Hat said:

On the contrary, unlike most people commenting I currently have children in both primary and secondary school.  I care a great deal.  I am also very supportive of kids being themselves, I just don't believe that buying into the gender trans nonsense is an any way a positive thing for the kids.  I am also very concerned that those transitioning are primarily gay kids, and this whole movement is homophobic.  There are so many concerns that I find it hard to comprehend how anyone can be fully supportive and not question it.  For those who genuinely have gender dysphoria, I have sympathy, but in the main this is not what we are talking about.

Like I said. "Societal cost" for the sake of maintaining the status quo, then, "Collateral damage".

 

Pardon if that reading appears uncharitable but it is accurate. Sympathy without action doesn't mean much - it's "thoughts and prayers" when another kid gets gunned down in a school in the US all over again.

 

Anyhow, hopefully a medium can be reached where such things are judged on a case-by-case basis, but of course that would take a lot of time and resources.

[Jon the Hat]

2 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

Like I said. "Societal cost" for the sake of maintaining the status quo, then, "Collateral damage".

 

Pardon if that reading appears uncharitable but it is accurate. Sympathy without action doesn't mean much - it's "thoughts and prayers" when another kid gets gunned down in a school in the US all over again.

 

Anyhow, hopefully a medium can be reached where such things are judged on a case-by-case basis, but of course that would take a lot of time and resources.

The societal cost of the affirmative model will be a lot higher than the societal cost of actually dealing with the underlying issues which lead kids to react like this.  The scandal here is waving through life changing decisions made by kids without sufficient challenge because dickheads talk about conversion therapy.  Last time I looked being gay didn't involve chopping your bits off.  By definition this should be appropriately managed to ensure it is really the right thing.  Telling people they can change their sex is a massive lie and should be called out as such.

[leicsmac]

10 minutes ago, Jon the Hat said:

The societal cost of the affirmative model will be a lot higher than the societal cost of actually dealing with the underlying issues which lead kids to react like this.  The scandal here is waving through life changing decisions made by kids without sufficient challenge because dickheads talk about conversion therapy.  Last time I looked being gay didn't involve chopping your bits off.  By definition this should be appropriately managed to ensure it is really the right thing.  Telling people they can change their sex is a massive lie and should be called out as such.

You have absolutely no way of knowing that and certainly no way of proving it, so that's an assertion, not fact, for the record. And do you really think those on the "other side" of the issue have given up on wanting "conversion therapy", or indeed applying it where they can?

 

That being said, this is all assertions (including from myself) and hardly scientific, so points of view are points of view.

[Jon the Hat]

1 hour ago, leicsmac said:

You have absolutely no way of knowing that and certainly no way of proving it, so that's an assertion, not fact, for the record. And do you really think those on the "other side" of the issue have given up on wanting "conversion therapy", or indeed applying it where they can?

 

That being said, this is all assertions (including from myself) and hardly scientific, so points of view are points of view.

Indeed, and there is no basis on which to say my assertion is wrong because there is little evidence ether way.  So I will err on the side of caution and insist that allowing kids to make life changing decisions when they are teens is a bad idea for which they will hold us responsible later on.  Some already are.  

The problem here is the insistence that wanting to see teens have some proper counselling and psychological assessment before they make life changing decisions is akin to gay conversion therapy.  It isn't, and not doing do when so many of these kids are gay or autistic is criminal negligence.

[leicsmac]

10 minutes ago, Jon the Hat said:

Indeed, and there is no basis on which to say my assertion is wrong because there is little evidence ether way.  So I will err on the side of caution and insist that allowing kids to make life changing decisions when they are teens is a bad idea for which they will hold us responsible later on.  Some already are.  

The problem here is the insistence that wanting to see teens have some proper counselling and psychological assessment before they make life changing decisions is akin to gay conversion therapy.  It isn't, and not doing do when so many of these kids are gay or autistic is criminal negligence.

Fair enough, as usual on this topic we have a disagreement on where the proper balance of power and issue lies.

[Jon the Hat]

Just now, leicsmac said:

Fair enough, as usual on this topic we have a disagreement on where the proper balance of power and issue lies.

If in doubt assume the American hospitals and big pharma who are making fortunes from surgery and ongoing medical treatments are probably not the ones to back

[leicsmac]

4 minutes ago, Jon the Hat said:

If in doubt assume the American hospitals and big pharma who are making fortunes from surgery and ongoing medical treatments are probably not the ones to back

And nor are the pious Puritan conservatives determined to be the arbiters of morality, making their own fortunes from moral panic and working to have vulnerable folks back in the closet or worse.

 

So...yeah.

[Daggers]

There are times I reckon I could sit down and share a beer with Jon and find him OK company (for a Tory).

 

Then there’s this Jon - who writes this shite. This Jon I’d happily punch in the tits. 

[Jon the Hat]

5 minutes ago, Daggers said:

There are times I reckon I could sit down and share a beer with Jon and find him OK company (for a Tory).

Then there’s this Jon - who writes this shite. This Jon I’d happily punch in the tits. 

Ah you'd love me in person, I am a lot more reasonable.  I was just at a Pride breakfast.

 

More importantly, who told you I have tits?  Where you on Cable beach at the weekend?

[Jon the Hat]

39 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

And nor are the pious Puritan conservatives determined to be the arbiters of morality, making their own fortunes from moral panic and working to have vulnerable folks back in the closet or worse.

 

So...yeah.

Yeah **** those people, and the Christian right.  Not my types at all.  Moral panic helps no one.

[ozleicester]

2 hours ago, Jon the Hat said:

On the contrary, unlike most people commenting I currently have children in both primary and secondary school.  I care a great deal.  I am also very supportive of kids being themselves, I just don't believe that buying into the gender trans nonsense is an any way a positive thing for the kids.  I am also very concerned that those transitioning are primarily gay kids, and this whole movement is homophobic.  There are so many concerns that I find it hard to comprehend how anyone can be fully supportive and not question it.  For those who genuinely have gender dysphoria, I have sympathy, but in the main this is not what we are talking about.

you dont know ANYTHING about THESE people and your puritanical outdated views should have no impact on their life

You pretend you care, but really if it doesnt fit your blinkered world view, you run screaming and judging and trying to impose your hate and ignorance on others.

 

[ozleicester]

25 minutes ago, Jon the Hat said:

Yeah **** those people, and the Christian right.  Not my types at all.  Moral panic helps no one.

you are one of them

[The Doctor]

3 hours ago, Jon the Hat said:

.  I am also very concerned that those transitioning are primarily gay kids, and this whole movement is homophobic.  

False. 

 

https://transequality.org/sites/default/files/docs/usts/USTS Full Report - FINAL 1.6.17.pdf

 

"Respondents were most likely to identify as queer (21%), and they also identified as pansexual (18%), gay, lesbian, or same-gender-loving (16%), straight (15%), bisexual

(14%), and asexual (10%)" 

 

Self reported sexualities so the gay kids you're talking about would be the 15% who ID as straight.

[Lionator]

2 hours ago, Jon the Hat said:

Yeah **** those people, and the Christian right.  Not my types at all.  Moral panic helps no one.

The anti-trans movement is a moral panic! 
 

I respect what you’re saying and I don’t think you’re intending to be cruel but imagine you were a person with gender dysphoria (who you say you feel sorry for), imagine somebody else exposing you to your parents. 

Edited 20 June 2023 by Lionator

[grobyfox1990]

Damnnnnnn if there’s this much talk on the topic on a football forum imagine all the $$$$$$$$ involved in a decade or so time when the kids become adults and start taking people to court for decisions made when they were clearly far too young and/or without proper consent. Investment firms and class action advocates must be licking their lips