Also in the News - Part 2

[Jon the Hat]

1 minute ago, grobyfox1990 said:

Damnnnnnn if there’s this much talk on the topic on a football forum imagine all the $$$$$$$$ involved in a decade or so time when the kids become adults and start taking people to court for decisions made when they were clearly far too young and/or without proper consent. Investment firms and class action advocates must be licking their lips 

You know it.  There are going to be some people going to jail and lots of bankrupt companies.

[leicsmac]

3 minutes ago, grobyfox1990 said:

Damnnnnnn if there’s this much talk on the topic on a football forum imagine all the $$$$$$$$ involved in a decade or so time when the kids become adults and start taking people to court for decisions made when they were clearly far too young and/or without proper consent. Investment firms and class action advocates must be licking their lips 

 

Just now, Jon the Hat said:

You know it.  There are going to be some people going to jail and lots of bankrupt companies.

Time will tell, I guess.

 

Either way, again this is a disagreement on what the bigger (and therefore priority) problem is.

[Jon the Hat]

18 minutes ago, Lionator said:

The anti-trans movement is a moral panic! 
 

I respect what you’re saying and I don’t think you’re intending to be cruel but imagine you were a person with gender dysphoria (who you say you feel sorry for), imagine somebody else exposing you to your parents. 

These kids need help, no doubt, but lying to them that they can pause puberty, change their sex and be happier is not supported by the facts.  Proper support, counselling and looking at underlying issues are key.

[Wymsey]

The Titanic viewing capsule missing in the Atlantic only has about 60 hours of oxygen available for those on board. 

[ClaphamFox]

2 hours ago, ozleicester said:

you are one of them

How on earth do you know that? Do you know him personally? Or do you just assume that anybody who doesn’t unquestioningly accept every facet of trans theology must be part of the ‘Christian right’? (Hint: the large majority of people who have concerns about how this stuff, in the UK at least, are neither Christian nor right-wing).

 

You may have seen this audio clip that has been doing the rounds over the past couple of days. It was recorded at Rye College in East Sussex on Friday and shows a teacher becoming completely deranged because a couple of female students dare to challenge her on trans issues. When parents hear teachers aggressively push a particular viewpoint and trying to shut down discussion with threats, naturally they will have concerns. At the beginning of the clip, they are discussing a pupil in the class who identifies as a cat, but then they go on to discuss gender.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited 20 June 2023 by ClaphamFox

[Jon the Hat]

1 minute ago, leicsmac said:

 

Time will tell, I guess.

 

Either way, again this is a disagreement on what the bigger (and therefore priority) problem is.

You can work on more than one issue at once.  Educate people to accept that we are all different, to respect one another, and to treat each other with love, while not lying to a generation of confused kids and helping them **** up their lives, allowing for same sex spaces and enuring trans women compete fairly against their male contemporaries instead of ruining women's sports.  For example.

[leicsmac]

1 minute ago, ClaphamFox said:

How on earth do you know that? Do you know him personally? Or do you just assume that anybody who doesn’t unquestioningly accept every facet of trans theology must be part of the ‘Christian right’? (Hint: the large majority of people who have concerns about how this stuff, in the UK at least, are neither Christian nor right-wing).

 

You may have seen this audio clip that has been doing the rounds over the past couple of days. It was recorded at Rye College in East Sussex on Friday and shows a teacher becoming completely deranged because a couple of female students dare to challenge her on trans issues. When parents hear teachers aggressively push a particular viewpoint and trying to shut down discussion with threats, naturally they will have concerns.

 

 

 

 

 

Of course not, but a fair few of them that drive the narrative are. Whether they are in the UK or not is (in part) immaterial anyway - these viewpoints and issues transcend national borders, thanks to the internet.

[Captain...]

1 hour ago, The Doctor said:

False. 

 

https://transequality.org/sites/default/files/docs/usts/USTS Full Report - FINAL 1.6.17.pdf

 

"Respondents were most likely to identify as queer (21%), and they also identified as pansexual (18%), gay, lesbian, or same-gender-loving (16%), straight (15%), bisexual

(14%), and asexual (10%)" 

 

Self reported sexualities so the gay kids you're talking about would be the 15% who ID as straight.

I don't think that disproves his point, if anything it confirms that there is a link between being LGBQA and trans. 

 

The worry is, and I'm basing this on 0 facts, that whilst coming to terms with their sexuality people tend to tie in their gender identity with their sexuality.

 

All of this that is being discussed on this thread is so far removed from the real issue, which is that we still live in a binary world where boys and girls are supposed to act in a certain way and if you don't act, think, feel like you are expected to then there must be something wrong with you. When there isn't. In some cases transitioning is seen as the solution when it isn't. The solution is a more tolerant open and varied society where people are free to be their true selves and express their true feeling without a) judgement or b) irreversible medical procedures and a cocktail of hormones.

 

[Jon the Hat]

4 minutes ago, ClaphamFox said:

How on earth do you know that? Do you know him personally? Or do you just assume that anybody who doesn’t unquestioningly accept every facet of trans theology must be part of the ‘Christian right’? (Hint: the large majority of people who have concerns about how this stuff, in the UK at least, are neither Christian nor right-wing).

 

You may have seen this audio clip that has been doing the rounds over the past couple of days. It was recorded at Rye College in East Sussex on Friday and shows a teacher becoming completely deranged because a couple of female students dare to challenge her on trans issues. When parents hear teachers aggressively push a particular viewpoint and trying to shut down discussion with threats, naturally they will have concerns.

 

 

 

 

 

Safeguarding?  Sounds more like threats to me, and those views are protected by law.  Good luck teacher.

[ClaphamFox]

2 minutes ago, Captain... said:

I don't think that disproves his point, if anything it confirms that there is a link between being LGBQA and trans. 

 

The worry is, and I'm basing this on 0 facts, that whilst coming to terms with their sexuality people tend to tie in their gender identity with their sexuality.

 

All of this that is being discussed on this thread is so far removed from the real issue, which is that we still live in a binary world where boys and girls are supposed to act in a certain way and if you don't act, think, feel like you are expected to then there must be something wrong with you. When there isn't. In some cases transitioning is seen as the solution when it isn't. The solution is a more tolerant open and varied society where people are free to be their true selves and express their true feeling without a) judgement or b) irreversible medical procedures and a cocktail of hormones.

 

This surely has to be the holy grail? 

[Captain...]

9 minutes ago, ClaphamFox said:

How on earth do you know that? Do you know him personally? Or do you just assume that anybody who doesn’t unquestioningly accept every facet of trans theology must be part of the ‘Christian right’? (Hint: the large majority of people who have concerns about how this stuff, in the UK at least, are neither Christian nor right-wing).

 

You may have seen this audio clip that has been doing the rounds over the past couple of days. It was recorded at Rye College in East Sussex on Friday and shows a teacher becoming completely deranged because a couple of female students dare to challenge her on trans issues. When parents hear teachers aggressively push a particular viewpoint and trying to shut down discussion with threats, naturally they will have concerns. At the beginning of the clip, they are discussing a pupil in the class who identifies as a cat, but then they go on to discuss gender.

 

 

 

 

 

There's a lot to unpack in that, but my main take away is I would hate to be a teacher.

[The Doctor]

7 minutes ago, grobyfox1990 said:

Damnnnnnn if there’s this much talk on the topic on a football forum imagine all the $$$$$$$$ involved in a decade or so time when the kids become adults and start taking people to court for decisions made when they were clearly far too young and/or without proper consent. Investment firms and class action advocates must be licking their lips 

Given the regret rates are a fraction of a percentage (detransitioners make up like 2% of the trans population and detransition due to regret is a tiny proportion of that, primary reason is for safety and as a result of transphobic bullying), plus the UK already having competency assessments for kids to consent (gillick competence) and the level of gatekeeping in trans healthcare (continued access to puberty blockers on the nhs has been made dependent on agreeing to participate in clinical studies, while the waiting lists for adult care run at least 3 years with assessments designed to be humiliating and find justification for denying care (your doctor never needs to know about your masturbatory habits but they ask and expect you to answer, and trans women have anecdotally been declined as a result of nonsense like "doesn't own enough pairs of shoes"), that wouldn't be a smart money bet. 

 

to be frank, the "mass wave of detransitioners and lawsuits" is the anti-trans movements equivalent of the rapture, a complete fiction that is always right around the corner 

[The Doctor]

9 minutes ago, Captain... said:

I don't think that disproves his point, if anything it confirms that there is a link between being LGBQA and trans. 

 

 

It 100% does. Jon's claim is that it's predominantly gay kids being transitioned, the ratio of gay to straight people transitioning is equal.

 

It shows that the majority of trans people are also LGBQA, but that is on self identified responses so it's post transition, not pre transition which is Jon's claim 

[Jon the Hat]

18 minutes ago, Captain... said:

I don't think that disproves his point, if anything it confirms that there is a link between being LGBQA and trans. 

 

The worry is, and I'm basing this on 0 facts, that whilst coming to terms with their sexuality people tend to tie in their gender identity with their sexuality.

 

All of this that is being discussed on this thread is so far removed from the real issue, which is that we still live in a binary world where boys and girls are supposed to act in a certain way and if you don't act, think, feel like you are expected to then there must be something wrong with you. When there isn't. In some cases transitioning is seen as the solution when it isn't. The solution is a more tolerant open and varied society where people are free to be their true selves and express their true feeling without a) judgement or b) irreversible medical procedures and a cocktail of hormones.

 

Absolutely agree. What is sad to me is I feel 20 years ago gender roles were being ripped up, and now it seems they are back with a vengeance and not in a good way.

[The Doctor]

Just now, Jon the Hat said:

Absolutely agree. What is sad to me is I feel 20 years ago gender roles were being ripped up, and now it seems they are back with a vengeance and not in a good way.

... And it's the anti-trans movement that are aggressively enforcing them .

 

It's not trans people harassing women with short hair out of toilets for being men: 

 

It's not trans people attacking drag shows and suggesting that feminine presenting men are grooming kids.

 

It's not trans people passing laws banning "cross dressing": https://www.thepinknews.com/2023/06/09/florida-transformers-convention-tfcon-anti-drag-cross-dressing-cosplay/

 

It is consistently the anti-trans movement and the christofascists like Ron De Santis that the anti-trans movement has allied with, that are rigidly enforcing gender roles and the gender binary. 

 

 

[Jon the Hat]

14 minutes ago, The Doctor said:

It 100% does. Jon's claim is that it's predominantly gay kids being transitioned, the ratio of gay to straight people transitioning is equal.

 

It shows that the majority of trans people are also LGBQA, but that is on self identified responses so it's post transition, not pre transition which is Jon's claim 

And gay people make up what proportion of the population?  7% or so? So then if half of people transitioning are gay you are way more likely to be transing a gay kid.

[Jon the Hat]

1 minute ago, The Doctor said:

... And it's the anti-trans movement that are aggressively enforcing them .

 

It's not trans people harassing women with short hair out of toilets for being men: 

 

It's not trans people attacking drag shows and suggesting that feminine presenting men are grooming kids.

 

It's not trans people passing laws banning "cross dressing": https://www.thepinknews.com/2023/06/09/florida-transformers-convention-tfcon-anti-drag-cross-dressing-cosplay/

 

It is consistently the anti-trans movement and the christofascists like Ron De Santis that the anti-trans movement has allied with, that are rigidly enforcing gender roles and the gender binary. 

 

 

Yes I agree,  Florida is mad as a box of frogs.

 

The anti-trans movement is not a thing though, there are lots of people concerned for lots of reasons, and just be the sky fairy mob don't like it, doesn't mean I am wrong to be concerned.

Edited 20 June 2023 by Jon the Hat

[Jon the Hat]

25 minutes ago, The Doctor said:

Given the regret rates are a fraction of a percentage (detransitioners make up like 2% of the trans population and detransition due to regret is a tiny proportion of that, primary reason is for safety and as a result of transphobic bullying), plus the UK already having competency assessments for kids to consent (gillick competence) and the level of gatekeeping in trans healthcare (continued access to puberty blockers on the nhs has been made dependent on agreeing to participate in clinical studies, while the waiting lists for adult care run at least 3 years with assessments designed to be humiliating and find justification for denying care (your doctor never needs to know about your masturbatory habits but they ask and expect you to answer, and trans women have anecdotally been declined as a result of nonsense like "doesn't own enough pairs of shoes"), that wouldn't be a smart money bet. 

 

to be frank, the "mass wave of detransitioners and lawsuits" is the anti-trans movements equivalent of the rapture, a complete fiction that is always right around the corner 

The number of detransition is not known so not sure where you got that figure from?  

[The Doctor]

3 minutes ago, Jon the Hat said:

And gay people make up what proportion of the population?  7% or so? So then if half of people transitioning are gay you are way more likely to be transing a gay kid.

Not really how it works. The majority of trans people are LGBQA after transition, and there's huge solidarity between trans people and cis LGB people. The claim trans people are homophobic and are opposed by LGB people is coming from straight people, not LGB people. https://www.gaytimes.co.uk/originals/lesbians-are-not-anti-trans/

 

2 minutes ago, Jon the Hat said:

Yes I agree,  Florida is mad as a box of frogs.

 

The anti-trans movement is not a thing though, there are lots of people concerned for lots of reasons, and just be the sky fairy mob don't like it, doesn't mean I am wrong to be concerned.

It absolutely is a thing though. Stop and think for a second. Ask yourself why this fuss was basically non existent a decade ago - and remember that Goodwin v UK which lead to the GRA was 2 decades ago, it's not a "we want legal rights" thing. The actual answer is that it's because America passed gay marriage 8 years ago with Obergefell. That was of course unacceptable to the anti-LGBT arseholes, and so they targeted down trans rights in a divide and conquer approach (because LGBT rights have consistently been advanced through group solidarity between the LGB and the T). This isn't speculation, it's well documented: https://www.splcenter.org/hatewatch/2017/10/23/christian-right-tips-fight-transgender-rights-separate-t-lgb

 

And so groups like the LGB Alliance and WoLF, Fair Play for Women etc were set up and funded by the far right (why do you think that small organisations like LGBA are based out of 55 tufton street) and began a media blitz to manufacture an anti-trans moral panic, which unfortunately a lot of people have been taken in by.

[The Doctor]

7 minutes ago, Jon the Hat said:

The number of detransition is not known so not sure where you got that figure from?  

Same source I sent you earlier:

 

 

8% detransition at some point, 5% of the 8% because it wasn't for them, total rate of detransition because of regret would be 0.4% of people who transition. Anything else with a 99.6% success rate would be hailed as a miracle treatment 

[leicsmac]

53 minutes ago, Jon the Hat said:

You can work on more than one issue at once.  Educate people to accept that we are all different, to respect one another, and to treat each other with love, while not lying to a generation of confused kids and helping them **** up their lives, allowing for same sex spaces and enuring trans women compete fairly against their male contemporaries instead of ruining women's sports.  For example.

Certainly we can and should work on more than one issue at once. But again the disagreement will come regarding which is the issue that is bigger, priority and therefore needs more time and resources*.

 

*other people's mileage may vary on this, but for me that's the issue that involves actual dead bodies as a direct result of bigotry.

[Jon the Hat]

8 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

Certainly we can and should work on more than one issue at once. But again the disagreement will come regarding which is the issue that is bigger, priority and therefore needs more time and resources*.

 

*other people's mileage may vary on this, but for me that's the issue that involves actual dead bodies as a direct result of bigotry.

As far as I know that number is 1 in the UK?

[Daggers]

Fantastic coverage of last big HR’s debate and vote:

https://thecritic.co.uk/bored-of-these-things/

[Captain...]

12 minutes ago, The Doctor said:

Same source I sent you earlier:

 

 

8% detransition at some point, 5% of the 8% because it wasn't for them, total rate of detransition because of regret would be 0.4% of people who transition. Anything else with a 99.6% success rate would be hailed as a miracle treatment 

I do think you're simplifying those statistics, yes 5% put down the reason as regret, but a number of the others will involve a form of regret. The 4% who said the initial transition did not reflect their gender identity is regret in other words and certainly not a success.

 

Too hard, pressure from friends/family etc, can't find a job, too much discrimination. They are not exclusive to regret. You also have to factor in pride. It is easier to say that it was down to external factors than "I made a mistake". You can also be pretty sure there are a number of people who have transitioned that regret it, but are too proud to say they made a mistake and detransition. Obviously all of that is unquantifiable. From a statistics point of view 8% of detransition leaves a 92% success rate, which isn't bad.

 

The amount that detransition for medical reasons (the only one that you can completely discount regret as a factor) is minimal.

 

It will be interesting to track that rate over the next few years, if there is an increase in detransition (regardless of reason given) it could be evidence that transition has been wrongly encouraged over the last few years.

[leicsmac]

45 minutes ago, Jon the Hat said:

As far as I know that number is 1 in the UK?

I'm reasonably sure the numbers of outright murder because of it, to say nothing of suicides as a result of it, are bigger than that.