Also in the News - Part 2

[UniFox21]

39 minutes ago, Collymore said:

There's so many sounds recorded in the ocean and it travels so far and keeps its strength unlike the air. I'd imagine the sensitivity and the amount of equipment they had down there it would have been very noisy even on a quiet day. 

Exactly.

As well as the amount of ocean traffic (boats, subs etc) probably in tandem with animal life noises too. 

 

 

[The Doctor]

1 hour ago, bovril said:

Very sad but irony levels off the chart that this group of rich guys probably got killed by corner cutting and their own arrogance while looking for... The Titanic

I mean James Cameron literally said it:

 

 

he's got an important point in there about the impact of this on deep sea exploration. I said earlier no-one should be going to the Titanic, but deep sea exploration more generally is an important field of research and it's going to take a huge hit in terms of public confidence and funding as a result of how people will respond to this shit show of an uncertified, untested sub with a questionable design by a company who's CEO described safety as "a waste" taking passengers to a place that is notoriously inhospitable even by deep sea standards

 

 

 

1 hour ago, Collymore said:

Surely a cable connected from the surface that would give comms, air and also a tether is a sensible and fairly cost effective choice? Seems a crazy design. 

At the depths they were planning on going to, no, you'd struggle to manufacture sure a cable

[yorkie1999]

2 hours ago, UniFox21 said:

Exactly.

As well as the amount of ocean traffic (boats, subs etc) probably in tandem with animal life noises too. 

 

 

And icebergs cracking.

[Collymore]

Turns out the US military picked up the implosion on their secret long range monitoring system and they straight away told the coast guard what they'd heard. I find it odd with that information why the coast guard even had a rescue mission at all and why it wasn't a recovery mission straight away.

 

They gave a bit of false hope.

[Collymore]

7 hours ago, UniFox21 said:

Exactly.

As well as the amount of ocean traffic (boats, subs etc) probably in tandem with animal life noises too. 

 

 

Yes, turned out to be other boats in the area. 

[leicsmac]

24 minutes ago, Collymore said:

Turns out the US military picked up the implosion on their secret long range monitoring system and they straight away told the coast guard what they'd heard. I find it odd with that information why the coast guard even had a rescue mission at all and why it wasn't a recovery mission straight away.

 

They gave a bit of false hope.

Because "OpSec" is more important than either money or human lives (and therefore they didn't want that information to go public right away).

 

Apparently.

[Jon the Hat]

3 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

Because "OpSec" is more important than either money or human lives (and therefore they didn't want that information to go public right away).

 

Apparently.

OpSec is human lives.  Likeley meant they had a sub in the area and that information is never shared.

[leicsmac]

54 minutes ago, Jon the Hat said:

OpSec is human lives.  Likeley meant they had a sub in the area and that information is never shared.

That's the standard response from such parties, yes. Even when there is no such danger or reason.

 

Pardon me for being (often accurately) cynical about parties who are in no way directly answerable to the people they supposedly serve and enact a cost as a result. Unaccountable power corrupts.

[ozleicester]

Just a reminder
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-06-17/greek-boat-reunion-syrian-refugees-500-dead/102492320

[The Doctor]

9 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

That's the standard response from such parties, yes. Even when there is no such danger or reason.

 

Pardon me for being (often accurately) cynical about parties who are in no way directly answerable to the people they supposedly serve and enact a cost as a result. Unaccountable power corrupts.

I mean, part of it will be the whole "can't let out how sensitive our submarine sound detection is" but also, it's a brief bit of noise and the ocean is a noisy place. The Titanic itself is constantly making similar noises as it breaks apart, the Titan is tiny in comparison and right next to the Titanic. Without the attempts to find it and to confirm the wreckage they couldn't just say "oh we heard it implode". They heard a probable implosion but with plenty of other possible sources and would have to try and confirm anyway.

 

Put yourself in the alternative universe where it didn't implode, but got trapped on a bit of the wreck, and a noise similar to an implosion was detected from the wreck continuing to break apart, and the sub was written off as having imploded. The scandal if it was then discovered to have not imploded and all 5 were just dead from carbon dioxide poisoning, but no attempt to find the sub was made...

[Collymore]

48 minutes ago, The Doctor said:

I mean, part of it will be the whole "can't let out how sensitive our submarine sound detection is" but also, it's a brief bit of noise and the ocean is a noisy place. The Titanic itself is constantly making similar noises as it breaks apart, the Titan is tiny in comparison and right next to the Titanic. Without the attempts to find it and to confirm the wreckage they couldn't just say "oh we heard it implode". They heard a probable implosion but with plenty of other possible sources and would have to try and confirm anyway.

 

Put yourself in the alternative universe where it didn't implode, but got trapped on a bit of the wreck, and a noise similar to an implosion was detected from the wreck continuing to break apart, and the sub was written off as having imploded. The scandal if it was then discovered to have not imploded and all 5 were just dead from carbon dioxide poisoning, but no attempt to find the sub was made...

I'm not sure how it works exactly but I'd imagine that all types of sources in the ocean have their own sound signature and an implosion of a sub, even of that relatively small size would have been pretty noticeable. Add to the fact at the same time the sub lost communication it would have made it almost certain they had lost their lives straight away. 

 

 

[SpacedX]

9 minutes ago, Collymore said:

I'm not sure how it works exactly but I'd imagine that all types of sources in the ocean have their own sound signature and an implosion of a sub, even of that relatively small size would have been pretty noticeable. Add to the fact at the same time the sub lost communication it would have made it almost certain they had lost their lives straight away. 

 

 

The loss of communication had plagued Titan previously. The fact that it had not deterred previous dives tells you all that you need to know. It now seems pretty unequivocal that in this case the loss of communications was instantaneously caused by catastrophic failure of the hull and as you say, the sound detected is now recognised to be due to implosion. 

 

The knocking at intervals that was detected is strange though. The hull was carbon fibre and it wouldn't have resonated or 'rang' like steel, it would have been muffled in comparison, rather like knocking on a tree trunk. 

[WigstonWanderer]

What I can’t understand is why they didn’t check the area where it was last located first thing. Perhaps the unmanned subs weren’t available.

[urban.spaceman]

New political scandal just dropped.

 

Amazing scoop. 
 

 

[The Doctor]

1 hour ago, Collymore said:

I'm not sure how it works exactly but I'd imagine that all types of sources in the ocean have their own sound signature and an implosion of a sub, even of that relatively small size would have been pretty noticeable. Add to the fact at the same time the sub lost communication it would have made it almost certain they had lost their lives straight away. 

 

 

It would have been very likely scenario yes, however due diligence they would have to treat it as a find and rescue mission until they found evidence of the implosion. There's liability waivers against oceangate so the families can't sue for that but not against the coast guard etc if a search and rescue wasn't even attempted 

[The Doctor]

29 minutes ago, urban.spaceman said:

New political scandal just dropped.

 

Amazing scoop. 
 

 

He's a really flakey leader who's committed hundreds and thousands of infractions, labour must hold an immediate leadership election 

[fazzyfox]

46 minutes ago, urban.spaceman said:

New political scandal just dropped.

 

Amazing scoop. 
 

 

The evidence is wafer thin and lacks a reliable sauce

[yorkie1999]

2 hours ago, ozleicester said:

Just a reminder
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-06-17/greek-boat-reunion-syrian-refugees-500-dead/102492320

A reminder of what?

[RoboFox]

The 4 guys (CEO excluded) in that thing most likely embarked on the expedition knowing the risks, but yet believing that the vessel was safe.

 

Small mercies in that they were probably all killed before their nervous systems even had time to react. The alternative was a horrible thought and I suppose the idea of these people sat at the bottom of the sea with dwindling oxygen made for a great story, but ultimately it was never really a possibility.

 

Don't mess with the ocean and can we perhaps consider not using the wreck of the Titanic as a tourist destination? 

 

Edited 23 June 2023 by RoboFox

[ClaphamFox]

1 minute ago, RoboFox said:

The 4 guys (CEO excluded) in that thing most likely embarked on the expedition knowing the risks, but yet believing that ultimately the vessel was safe.

 

Small mercies in that they were probably all killed before their nervous systems even had time to react. The alternative was a horrible thought and I suppose the idea of these people sat at the bottom of the ocean with dwindling oxygen made for a great story, but ultimately it was never really a possibility.

 

Don't mess with the ocean and just leave that ship alone. 

Submersibles have been diving to greater depths than the Titanic for decades and have an exemplary safety record. The problem in this case was not that they were attempting something unusual or foolhardy, but rather - apparently - that the craft they were using was created using unsuitable materials and hadn't been tested properly. It was an outlier, not the norm. The deaths of these five people was a tragedy and may turn out to be a horrific tale of corporate negligence, but it's not a parable about the unique perils of deepwater exploration or even visiting the Titanic, both of which have been proven to be very safe if conducted properly.

[Leeds Fox]

5 hours ago, leicsmac said:

Because "OpSec" is more important than either money or human lives (and therefore they didn't want that information to go public right away).

 

Apparently.

If they told the coastguards, the USN didn’t put any lives at further risk at the risk of maintaining OpSec.

 

The information would never have hit the coastguards desks if they wanted the information remaining classified. 

[Leeds Fox]

3 hours ago, Collymore said:

I'm not sure how it works exactly but I'd imagine that all types of sources in the ocean have their own sound signature and an implosion of a sub, even of that relatively small size would have been pretty noticeable. Add to the fact at the same time the sub lost communication it would have made it almost certain they had lost their lives straight away. 

 

 

Yes exactly. Even if they didn’t want to say what technology had detected the sound, they could’ve still made it clear it was heard. 
 

A P8 Poseidon could’ve been over that area within hours and picked up such noises.

 

Getting the information to the relevant parties and maintaining the anonymity of the submarine.

 

FWIW, maintaining the secrecy of the submarine probably outweighs the risk of giving its location up to save some people that had likely already perished (as per the noise it picked up itself). 
 

I know many won’t agree with that but on the basis of risk vs reward, it’s IMO correct.

 

Either way, I think they’d have got the information out regardless, just under a different guise. 

Edited 23 June 2023 by Leeds Fox

[leicsmac]

30 minutes ago, Leeds Fox said:

If they told the coastguards, the USN didn’t put any lives at further risk at the risk of maintaining OpSec.

 

The information would never have hit the coastguards desks if they wanted the information remaining classified. 

... but they didn't tell them the specifics unless the whole rescue operation was then trotted out purely for show? It would be be rather pointless when you can be almost absolutely sure the vessel has been lost with all hands.

 

 

23 minutes ago, Leeds Fox said:

Yes exactly. Even if they didn’t want to say what technology had detected the sound, they could’ve still made it clear it was heard. 
 

A P8 Poseidon could’ve been over that area within hours and picked up such noises.

 

Getting the information to the relevant parties and maintaining the anonymity of the submarine.

 

FWIW, maintaining the secrecy of the submarine probably outweighs the risk of giving its location up to save some people that had likely already perished (as per the noise it picked up itself). 
 

I know many won’t agree with that but on the basis of risk vs reward, it’s IMO correct.

 

Either way, I think they’d have got the information out regardless, just under a different guise. 

I agree with all of this, but a comment on the bolded:

 

I think it is a stupid and puerile world that we live in that revealing the location of a seafaring vessel is more important than even one human life, let alone five, because it's true at the present time that revealing that location would put more lives at risk and that logic is sound.

 

The logic is impeccable, it's just a judgement on how stupidly tribal a species we can be.

[st albans fox]

18 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

... but they didn't tell them the specifics unless the whole rescue operation was then trotted out purely for show? It would be be rather pointless when you can be almost absolutely sure the vessel has been lost with all hands.

 

 

I agree with all of this, but a comment on the bolded:

 

I think it is a stupid and puerile world that we live in that revealing the location of a seafaring vessel is more important than even one human life, let alone five, because it's true at the present time that revealing that location would put more lives at risk and that logic is sound.

 

The logic is impeccable, it's just a judgement on how stupidly tribal a species we can be.

they couldn’t give them guaranteed confirmation that the vessel was lost - hence the rescue mission had to continue 

 

the vessel is missing and the craft has four days of oxygen ….but we think it has suffered a catastrophic failure so we’re not bothering to search. Not sure how that plays out in the media.
The gentlemen involved were immensely wealthy - it could be that their families accepted to underwrite the cost of the rescue mission. 

 

what would you be saying if there was no rescue mission launched on the basis that a noise resembling an implosion had been picked up at the right time on Sunday ?  Presumably you’d be asking how they can be certain.. I do wonder if this information was shared with the French,  British or Canadian authorities before yesterday. 

[leicsmac]

13 minutes ago, st albans fox said:

they couldn’t give them guaranteed confirmation that the vessel was lost - hence the rescue mission had to continue 

 

the vessel is missing and the craft has four days of oxygen ….but we think it has suffered a catastrophic failure so we’re not bothering to search. Not sure how that plays out in the media.
The gentlemen involved were immensely wealthy - it could be that their families accepted to underwrite the cost of the rescue mission. 

 

what would you be saying if there was no rescue mission launched on the basis that a noise resembling an implosion had been picked up at the right time on Sunday ?  Presumably you’d be asking how they can be certain.. I do wonder if this information was shared with the French,  British or Canadian authorities before yesterday. 

I think there was possibly a middle ground here.

 

Say that the vessel was in all likelihood lost with all hands, but equipment is going out there to salvage and investigate and (in the incredible possibility that they may have survived) look for survivors, same as the aftermath of a catastrophic plane crash. Rather that than blowing the whole thing up into an international media "race against the clock". That was rather dishonest for base purposes IMO.

Edited 23 June 2023 by leicsmac