Also in the News - Part 2

[grobyfox1990]

35 minutes ago, yorkie1999 said:

They ain’t 8 year olds, they’re young adults , 15-16 year olds.

Well then they’re screwed. Or they’ll soon learn. Doubt they’ll get much sympathy from employers. 

[Zear0]

Think we've jumped the shark here gents.

[urban.spaceman]

Amazing self own from Tory MP.

 

 

 

[Steve_Guppy_Left_Foot]

If one of my kids came home from school and said dad I think I'm a cat I'd tell them to grow up and shut up l, I mean she's not Maureen ponderosa, just shut up. 

[urban.spaceman]

5 minutes ago, Steve_Guppy_Left_Foot said:

If one of my kids came home from school and said dad I think I'm a cat I'd tell them to grow up and shut up l, I mean she's not Maureen ponderosa, just shut up. 

Cats are magical.

[Zear0]

16 minutes ago, Steve_Guppy_Left_Foot said:

If one of my kids came home from school and said dad I think I'm a cat I'd tell them to grow up and shut up l, I mean she's not Maureen ponderosa, just shut up. 

[David Hankey]

18 minutes ago, urban.spaceman said:

Cats are magical.

and they have 9 lives, apparently.

[Sampson]

20 hours ago, leicsmac said:

We know that trees make noise when they fall and we are there to witness it, and that is proof enough that they also do when we don't. But then that's veering a little into the epistemological which always feels like a circle-jerk for its own sake to me (though sometimes a necessary one). Directly witnessing something empirically and it being repeated and corroborated in a credible environment makes it a fact rather than an opinion. And yeah, if someone cannot prove something either with their own evidence or by citing reliable sources, then it is only opinion, not fact.

But isn’t sound something created by the brain? Sound doesn’t really exist in nature it’s just how the brain of humans interprets particular waves? Snakes for example “feel” these waves rather than hear them and one way human’s can become deaf is through damaging that particular part of their brain and nothing to do with the ears or picking up these waves.

 

Sorry to go off topic and not relation to what tiki were talking about but it’s an interesting aside and I’m no scientist like yourself so may be wrong, but I was always led to believe the answer to the question “if no one is around in a forest and a tree falls does it make a sound?” is no. Because sound inherently requires an observer, as sound comes from within the observer, not outside the observer and is just how human’s (and many other animal’s) brains interpret and send signals to the rest of the body that particular waves have hit their ear drum.

Edited 25 June 2023 by Sampson

[leicsmac]

36 minutes ago, Sampson said:

But isn’t sound something created by the brain? Sound doesn’t really exist in nature it’s just how the brain of humans interprets particular waves? Snakes for example “feel” these waves rather than hear them and one way human’s can become deaf is through damaging that particular part of their brain and nothing to do with the ears or picking up these waves.

 

Sorry to go off topic and not relation to what tiki were talking about but it’s an interesting aside and I’m no scientist like yourself so may be wrong, but I was always led to believe the answer to the question “if no one is around in a forest and a tree falls does it make a sound?” is no. Because sound inherently requires an observer, as sound comes from within the observer, not outside the observer and is just how human’s (and many other animal’s) brains interpret and send signals to the rest of the body that particular waves have hit their ear drum.

Consider it similar to gravity. If a tree falls in the woods and there is no one to witness it, does it fall at all, or does it just go straight to lying on the ground because it wasn't witnessed by a human? It does of course fall in the same way as it would if it were observed, there's a billion fallen trees that have left damage to their surroundings during their fall as evidence. And that fall does have a physical signature that is interpreted by humans in the form of airborne vibrations that produce sound waves (among other signatures), whether or not it is observed.

 

That no human observer was there to witness an action of physics that then indubitably produced sound waves doesn't mean that it didn't happen.

 

Of course sound requires an observer to be perceived and there is some philosophical debate about something needing to be perceived to have actually happened, but events occur according to the laws of physics whether we are there to witness them or not.

[Sampson]

32 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

Consider it similar to gravity. If a tree falls in the woods and there is no one to witness it, does it fall at all, or does it just go straight to lying on the ground because it wasn't witnessed by a human? It does of course fall in the same way as it would if it were observed, there's a billion fallen trees that have left damage to their surroundings during their fall as evidence. And that fall does have a physical signature that is interpreted by humans in the form of airborne vibrations that produce sound waves (among other signatures), whether or not it is observed.

 

That no human observer was there to witness an action of physics that then indubitably produced sound waves doesn't mean that it didn't happen.

 

Of course sound requires an observer to be perceived and there is some philosophical debate about something needing to be perceived to have actually happened, but events occur according to the laws of physics whether we are there to witness them or not.

My point wasn't necessarily a philosophical one - and it wasn't about the metaphor you were having, it was just an aside. I suppose it's just semantics about what you're considering to be "sound".  I wasn't disagreeing whether a tree falls and produces sound waves. It was more that sound waves inherently require an observer to be converted into sound, as sound is something that comes from the human brain, not necessarily nature. We call these waves "sound waves" because of how the human brain interprets them, but there's no reason they need to be called that, they are just particular waves, it's just that's how human brains interpret particular waves to send signals to the rest of the body - other animals don't and have evolved without this ability or interpret them differently by for example "feeling" the vibrations of these waves, just as other animals have brains with the ability to see the world differently - for example at more frames a second or see in black and white or can see infra-red or UV lights unlike humans. Other animals can also hear sounds that we cannot, as their brains can interpret waves of different frequencies than ours.

 

Sound is inherently a creation of the human brain and just how our brains have evolved to tell the rest of the body about certain waves at certain frequencies, and therefore inherently requires an observer. Or that's how I've always been led to believe it works. There's sound waves bouncing around us all the time from different objects that no human can hear as they aren't the right frequency for our brains to turn into sound in our heads. Colloquially, we wouldn't say these objects make a sound, even though they produce sound waves.

Edited 25 June 2023 by Sampson

[leicsmac]

10 minutes ago, Sampson said:

My point wasn't necessarily a philosophical one - and it wasn't about the metaphor you were having, it was just an aside. I suppose it's just semantics about what you're considering to be "sound".  I wasn't disagreeing whether a tree falls and produces sound waves. It was more that sound waves inherently require an observer to be converted into sound, as sound is something that comes from the human brain, not necessarily nature. We call these waves "sound waves" because of how the human brain interprets them, but there's no reason they need to be called that, they are just particular waves, it's just that's how human brains interpret particular waves to send signals to the rest of the body - other animals don't and have evolved without this ability or interpret them differently by for example "feeling" the vibrations of these waves, just as other animals have brains with the ability to see the world differently - for example at more frames a second or see in black and white or can see infra-red or UV lights unlike humans. Other animals can also hear sounds that we cannot, as their brains can interpret waves of different frequencies than ours.

 

Sound is inherently a creation of the human brain and just how our brains have evolved to tell the rest of the body about certain waves at certain frequencies, and therefore inherently requires an observer. Or that's how I've always been led to believe it works. There's sound waves bouncing around us all the time from different objects that no human can hear as they aren't the right frequency for our brains to turn into sound in our heads. Colloquially, we wouldn't say these objects make a sound, even though they produce sound waves.

That's all good, and there certainly is a semantic debate to be had about it all.

[moore_94]

 

[Grebfromgrebland]

Now while we're all distracted by kids who may or may not identify as cats there's stuff like this going on in our country almost daily.

 

We have our modern British version of a genocide of the poor going on and no one really cares as we're too up with our own problems and distractions.

 

To put extremely vulnerable kids in a hotel with a Nazi/fascist owner and those kids vanish can only make you think that the government is complicit in this. This family is so well known it would be like allowing Jimmy Saville to run a child minders.

 

[Jon the Hat]

14 minutes ago, Grebfromgrebland said:

Now while we're all distracted by kids who may or may not identify as cats there's stuff like this going on in our country almost daily.

 

We have our modern British version of a genocide of the poor going on and no one really cares as we're too up with our own problems and distractions.

 

To put extremely vulnerable kids in a hotel with a Nazi/fascist owner and those kids vanish can only make you think that the government is complicit in this. This family is so well known it would be like allowing Jimmy Saville to run a child minders.

 

There is no suggestion ­Hoogstraten or his children have had anything to do with missing children.

 

Most likely the kids are missing because they did a runner to find extended family who they always planned to meet up with.  The only way to stop this is to lock them up in a secure facility, which has its own obvious issues.

Edited 26 June 2023 by Jon the Hat

[Alf Bentley]

BBC names 6th suspect (now deceased) in the Stephen Lawrence murder: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-65989993

 

Looks like further shocking evidence of Met Police misconduct/mind-blowing incompetence/institutional racism/corruption (make your own assessment).

 

If true, it seems that a relative of the suspect reported his admission of involvement, but this wasn't followed up as it was incorrectly recorded in the police database. He also closely resembled a photofit based on witness descriptions.

An officer who was investigating the suspect was later ordered into compulsory retirement.....and the suspect remained at liberty, pursuing his drug habit and even pleading guilty to an attack on a black shop worker a few hundred metres from the Lawrence murder site - the victim reported being told he'd be "Stephen Lawrenced". 

[nnfox]

19 minutes ago, Alf Bentley said:

BBC names 6th suspect (now deceased) in the Stephen Lawrence murder: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-65989993

 

Looks like further shocking evidence of Met Police misconduct/mind-blowing incompetence/institutional racism/corruption (make your own assessment).

 

If true, it seems that a relative of the suspect reported his admission of involvement, but this wasn't followed up as it was incorrectly recorded in the police database. He also closely resembled a photofit based on witness descriptions.

An officer who was investigating the suspect was later ordered into compulsory retirement.....and the suspect remained at liberty, pursuing his drug habit and even pleading guilty to an attack on a black shop worker a few hundred metres from the Lawrence murder site - the victim reported being told he'd be "Stephen Lawrenced". 

I think that actually the 'Institutional Racism' part of the whole thing diverted a lot of attention away from the downright incompetence.  Shockingly badly investigated from the get-go.

[Jon the Hat]

8 minutes ago, nnfox said:

I think that actually the 'Institutional Racism' part of the whole thing diverted a lot of attention away from the downright incompetence.  Shockingly badly investigated from the get-go.

It’s all tied in together.  They didn’t care enough to do their job properly.

[leicsmac]

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-66016948

 

An airport employee has died after being sucked into a passenger plane engine in Texas.

 

Oooof, turbine blender. Nasty way to go.

[fox_up_north]

1 hour ago, Jon the Hat said:

It’s all tied in together.  They didn’t care enough to do their job properly.

Quite. I've known coppers. A lot really want to do a good job but we're seeing a pattern here that certain officers don't care enough, possibly because "it's just a black stabbing". 

[st albans fox]

40 minutes ago, fox_up_north said:

Quite. I've known coppers. A lot really want to do a good job but we're seeing a pattern here that certain officers don't care enough, possibly because "it's just a black stabbing". 

i can understand how it wasn't investigated properly at the beginning because its obvious that corrupt coppers ensured that the six weren't able to be prosecuted 

 

surely there are strong indications that subsequent enquiries likely failed to protect those bent policemen ??  in some ways this is even worse

[nnfox]

2 hours ago, Jon the Hat said:

It’s all tied in together.  They didn’t care enough to do their job properly.

It's not really that straight forward though.  The MacPherson Report makes remarks that the first officers on the scene could not be shown to be racist.  In fact, the very first officer on the scene was off duty and on his way home with his wife, saw Stephen Lawrence on the ground and a person trying to attract help.  The officer stopped, assisted with first aid, called for an ambulance and was generally commended for his actions.  More officers turned up and did what they thought best, with no evidence of any racist motive.  What was found was that their first aid training was woefully inadequate and the initial scene management was essentially incompetent by the senior officers on the night, which had damaging consequences further down the line. 

 

Whilst it was shown that the Met were racist "through processes, attitudes and behaviour, leading to unwitting prejudice, ignorance, thoughtlessness and racial stereotyping", it isn't the case that all officers were racist.  General incompetence seemed to be rife.

 

 

[marbles]

2 hours ago, leicsmac said:

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-66016948

 

An airport employee has died after being sucked into a passenger plane engine in Texas.

 

Oooof, turbine blender. Nasty way to go.

Is it really?

I would think it would be sudden and quick.  
Sounds like it might meet 2 of the 3 criteria for how I’d like to go

[Countryfox]

That ginger topped waste of space HRH Princess Fergie of York (VIP) was diagnosed with breast cancer ..  but fear not fellow Foxtalkers  ..  she was whisked ..  whisked I say !! ..  into hospital,  and has undergone successful surgery.   Great news for her and also great news that those long hospital waiting times now seem to be a thing of the past .. 

[leicsmac]

25 minutes ago, marbles said:

Is it really?

I would think it would be sudden and quick.  
Sounds like it might meet 2 of the 3 criteria for how I’d like to go

Yeah, fair to say, if they didn't see it coming.

 

More nasty for the poor bastards who have to clean up what's left afterwards, though.

[The Doctor]

4 hours ago, Alf Bentley said:

BBC names 6th suspect (now deceased) in the Stephen Lawrence murder: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-65989993

 

Looks like further shocking evidence of Met Police misconduct/mind-blowing incompetence/institutional racism/corruption (make your own assessment).

 

If true, it seems that a relative of the suspect reported his admission of involvement, but this wasn't followed up as it was incorrectly recorded in the police database. He also closely resembled a photofit based on witness descriptions.

An officer who was investigating the suspect was later ordered into compulsory retirement.....and the suspect remained at liberty, pursuing his drug habit and even pleading guilty to an attack on a black shop worker a few hundred metres from the Lawrence murder site - the victim reported being told he'd be "Stephen Lawrenced". 

"Clive Driscoll, the officer who convicted two of Stephen's killers, said Cressida Dick suggested in 2012 he should not bother going after the other suspects, even though the trial judge had urged police to pursue them. Mr Driscoll went on to arrest White, but was then made to retire before he could complete his investigation"

 

Why is it Cressida has her hands directly in pretty much every met police scandal?