Also in the News - Part 2

[leicsmac]

56 minutes ago, Dahnsouff said:

Let me put it another way

 

Capital(ism) does not mean just money, the ability to gauge something anyone could wish to attain by a metric of their choosing, the desirable quality, is an extremely potent way to direct the trends available in the free market. For example, only buying using using ethical choices, by using any metric you wish to define IS still capitalism, Its just not based on money, and something we have made huge use of.

 

Would this have been possible with socialism and a more centrally dictated policy? Do not see how, despite the blanket belief by some that goodness is inherent in such a model

 

Yes we need an ethical system of capitalism and what we have now is utterly broken, but capitalism is not too blame

 

As the saying goes, "Guns don't kill people....."

I can see where you're coming from, but as people (rightly) point out the bastardisation of the socialist model in the USSR as proof it cannot work, so people should (rightly) point out the gross inequality brought about by the present system of capitalism as proof it cannot work, either.

 

Principle means little, practice means everything, in these matters.

 

If there was more inclination toward altruism and empathy that humans exhibited anyway, then maybe... but is there any evidence humans can be ethical on the level needed for that to work well?

[bovril]

6 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

I think that those two things are intertwined - the misinformation leads to mistrust and dislike of the "other", and conflict naturally results. Misinformation is just one of the ways such conflict is bred.

 

If that were 100% true, the UK would be an outlier in terms of what's going on re unrest and polarisation. That really isn't the case, and while the news media have their part in the beginning, the rise and misuse of social media is something that I think has had a major impact and something we should underestimate at our extreme peril.

I think tbh the UK is something of an outlier in recent years when you look at how wealth and living standards have dropped over the last 15 years compared to similar countries. 

[leicsmac]

2 minutes ago, bovril said:

I think tbh the UK is something of an outlier in recent years when you look at how wealth and living standards have dropped over the last 15 years compared to similar countries. 

Economically? Quite possibly.

 

Socially and politically? It's been happy time for the bigoted reactionaries, in a lot of places, and it has been for several years now.

[bovril]

1 minute ago, leicsmac said:

Economically? Quite possibly.

 

Socially and politically? It's been happy time for the bigoted reactionaries, in a lot of places, and it has been for several years now.

We're talking about the influence of media though, and the extraordinarily bad macroeconomic decisions that the UK has made recently has been because the voters wanted them. I can't think of many other large democracies where that's been the case (Italy maybe?). 

 

If Britain isn't as polarised as much as other places perhaps it's because people are apathetic? France to me is the Western European country with the best short term economic prospects and yet always seems to be more unstable socially. 

[Dahnsouff]

29 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

I can see where you're coming from, but as people (rightly) point out the bastardisation of the socialist model in the USSR as proof it cannot work, so people should (rightly) point out the gross inequality brought about by the present system of capitalism as proof it cannot work, either.

 

Principle means little, practice means everything, in these matters.

 

If there was more inclination toward altruism and empathy that humans exhibited anyway, then maybe... but is there any evidence humans can be ethical on the level needed for that to work well?

That is a bit of deflection though, for some on here if not you personally, as no system is flawless and is utterly reliant on the actors within the system yet you imply this capitalism we see is fully representative of capitalism, yet Russia's socialism is not....

 

Yes, our cash capitalism is about 90% broken to such a degree I can see no way to reverse it in the near future, but on the point of altruism - why not?

 

Lead by example, don`t fly, make a sacrifice, don`t buy fast fashion, speak with a small voice that could grow into a scream by not supporting those you do not agree with.

You don't need to be rich to make these choices, you have to have the intent and start small as nothing hurts this fetid cash capitalism more than social derived choices that focus not on what they believe you want, but what you want is not something they offer,  but something that only the few are offering, and those few will become the norm.

 

Its our job, as we have the power to change it by use of capital redirection and you don`t need a centralised conscious for this and to rely on one is just kicking the can down the road to the next self serving leaders we deign to elect.

 

Of course being delayed/confused/distracted by those who would proliferate this short term greed, is the first battle we face.

 

</rant>

Edited 30 June 2023 by Dahnsouff

[leicsmac]

12 minutes ago, bovril said:

We're talking about the influence of media though, and the extraordinarily bad macroeconomic decisions that the UK has made recently has been because the voters wanted them. I can't think of many other large democracies where that's been the case (Italy maybe?). 

 

If Britain isn't as polarised as much as other places perhaps it's because people are apathetic? France to me is the Western European country with the best short term economic prospects and yet always seems to be more unstable socially. 

I agree regarding the economic decisions in the UK.

 

I do however think that social media has played a large part in the ascendancy of political figures with social policy that is....shall we say, less than optimal, which has then led to polarisation. And that has happened in quite a few places, including the UK.

 

10 minutes ago, Dahnsouff said:

That is a bit of deflection though, for some on here if not you personally, as no system is flawless and it utterly reliant on the actors within the system

Yes, our cash capitalism is about 90% broken to such a degree I can see no way to reverse it in the near future, but on the point of altruism - why not?

 

Lead by example, don`t fly, make a sacrifice, don`t buy fast fashion, speak with a small voice that could grow into a scream by not supporting those you do not agree with.

You don't need to be rich to make these choice, you have to have the intent and start small as nothing hurts this fetid cash capitalism more than social derived choices that focus not on what they believe you  want, make them know you want something that only the few offering, and those few become the norm.

 

Its our job, its democracy, we have the power to change it and you don`t need a centralised conscious for this and to rely on one is just promoting their preferred norm,.

 

Of course being delayed/confused/distracted by those who would proliferate this short term greed, is the first battle we face.

 

</rant>

On the bolded:

 

- Exactly, which is why I pointed it out and mentioned that in all cases like this, it is the actors within the system, not the theoretical aims of the system, that matter.

 

- The idealist in me wants to believe this. The cynic looks around at the world and the future right now and quite frankly doesn't buy it at all, seeing as civilisation is either not treating global problems with anywhere the seriousness they deserve and when such problems do arise, simply retreating into a nest of tribalism and mistrust (look at what happened during Covid, and that was a mere comparative light touch).

[Dahnsouff]

Just now, leicsmac said:

...

 

- The idealist in me wants to believe this. The cynic looks around at the world and the future right now and quite frankly doesn't buy it at all, seeing as civilisation is either not treating global problems with anywhere the seriousness they deserve and when such problems do arise, simply retreating into a nest of tribalism and mistrust (look at what happened during Covid, and that was a mere comparative light touch).

....then you may as well close the door on your way out  

[leicsmac]

2 minutes ago, Dahnsouff said:

....then you may as well close the door on your way out  

Or seek to change the system, fundamentally.

 

We can be so much better than we are. But that effort of will needed in order to succeed takes more than everyone suddenly agreeing to be so.

[Dahnsouff]

11 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

Or seek to change the system, fundamentally.

 

We can be so much better than we are. But that effort of will needed in order to succeed takes more than everyone suddenly agreeing to be so.

But you ignore your premise or deem that there is some innate value in alternate systems, which you yourself admit to be false, so you are running away from people to the same people in different hats

 

Maybe an Autocratic system is the answer after all.....actually....

 

..relax, I know

 

Edited 30 June 2023 by Dahnsouff

[leicsmac]

8 minutes ago, Dahnsouff said:

But you ignore your premise or deem that there is some innate value in alternate systems, which you yourself admit to be false, so you are running away from people to the same people in different hats

 

Maybe an Autocratic system is the answer after all.....actually....

 

..relax, I know

 

Allow me to clarify then:

 

Alternate systems, at worst, lead to 1984.

The present system, at worst, leads to either Mad Max-style fiefdoms or actual extinction, or one followed by the other.

 

I know which one I would rather gamble on, considering that when death is on the table for a species, every single other option is better.

[Dahnsouff]

11 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

Allow me to clarify then:

 

Alternate systems, at worst, lead to 1984.

The present system, at worst, leads to either Mad Max-style fiefdoms or actual extinction, or one followed by the other.

 

I know which one I would rather gamble on, considering that when death is on the table for a species, every single other option is better.

I really am not trying to be awkward, but alternate systems have not offered success obvious too me, but yes your anywhere but here catches that and I understand that. However the current system would allow a way forward albeit with constraints on greed achieved through collective direct action on cash capital grounds, and I am unsure what an alternate system uses as a steering mechanism.

 

No believing in the actors in either system means we have to assert control from somewhere within the system we have, or by totalitarian means. (As you suggest)

Edited 30 June 2023 by Dahnsouff

[leicsmac]

2 minutes ago, Dahnsouff said:

I really am not trying to be awkward, but alternate systems have not offered success obvious too me, but yes your anywhere but here catches that and I understand that. However the current system would allow a way forward albeit with constraints on greed achieved through collective direct action on cash capital grounds, and I am unsure what an alternate system uses as a steering mechanism.

 

No believing in the actors in either system means we have to assert control from somewhere within the system we have, or by totalitarian means. (As you suggest)

I would very much like to see the former and I do think it's possible to do so - but if we don't act in a timely fashion to do so, the day may come where it's a choice between the latter or civilisational collapse.

[The Doctor]

 

 

Happy last day of pride, the supreme court has decided that enforcing non discrimination laws against LGBT couples is compelled speech 

 

There is of course one huge problem that the illegitimate court has ignored... The entire case is fake. The guy who was alleged to have attempted to make the homophobe make him a wedding website never did. A legitimate court would of course throw the case out and have the ADF and claimant charged with perjury, but instead here we are

[leicsmac]

18 minutes ago, The Doctor said:

 

 

Happy last day of pride, the supreme court has decided that enforcing non discrimination laws against LGBT couples is compelled speech 

 

There is of course one huge problem that the illegitimate court has ignored... The entire case is fake. The guy who was alleged to have attempted to make the homophobe make him a wedding website never did. A legitimate court would of course throw the case out and have the ADF and claimant charged with perjury, but instead here we are

A fictional case to go with their prejudice against by and large decent consenting adults that is likewise entirely based on fiction.

 

Perversely fitting.

[The Doctor]

9 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

A fictional case to go with their prejudice against by and large decent consenting adults that is likewise entirely based on fiction.

 

Perversely fitting.

Yep. I'd play them at their own game and refuse to serve Christians or conservatives but somehow I imagine there'd be a different standard for that...

[leicsmac]

7 minutes ago, The Doctor said:

Yep. I'd play them at their own game and refuse to serve Christians or conservatives but somehow I imagine there'd be a different standard for that...

No doubt. The hypocrisy and engineered power disparity for the purposes of cruelty is, of course, the point.

[Zear0]

Do like this group. 

 

 

[Daggers]

So, now anyone with a Dremel can be a dentist and you can be a surgeon if you’ve completed an NVQ in carpentry.

 

Someone tell me this is going to be over soon - I can’t take much more of these cvnts before exploding.

[Daggers]

 

[Parafox]

1 hour ago, Daggers said:

 

Regarding the first statemnet:

 

The GMC publishes advice to doctors on the standards expected of them in the form of the document 'Good Medical Practice'. It discusses the duties of a doctor registered with the GMC. This covers many of the principles of the original Hippocratic Oath.

 

[Daggers]

4 minutes ago, Parafox said:

Regarding the first statemnet:

 

The GMC publishes advice to doctors on the standards expected of them in the form of the document 'Good Medical Practice'. It discusses the duties of a doctor registered with the GMC. This covers many of the principles of the original Hippocratic Oath.

 

But they no longer swear an oath. 

[Parafox]

2 minutes ago, Daggers said:

But they no longer swear an oath. 

Exactly my point. Ms Morgan is wrong. She clearly just stated something she thought to be true but was in fact, wrong.

 

In some medical universities though, graduates are given a choice of swearing the oath but it's not compulsory.

Edited 30 June 2023 by Parafox

[Daggers]

2 minutes ago, Parafox said:

Exactly my point. Ms Morgan is wrong. She clearly just stated something she thought to be true but was in fact, wrong.

That’s me and my reading skills hitting a home run again then 😁

[Parafox]

1 minute ago, Daggers said:

That’s me and my reading skills hitting a home run again then 😁

Well, you are from Kettering. 

[The Doctor]

2 hours ago, Daggers said:

So, now anyone with a Dremel can be a dentist and you can be a surgeon if you’ve completed an NVQ in carpentry.

 

Someone tell me this is going to be over soon - I can’t take much more of these cvnts before exploding.

Sounds good to me, I've got a dremel. Reckon i could make a killing doing some private dentistry given how impossible it is to find an actual dentist.