iniesta Posted 10 July 2023 Share Posted 10 July 2023 Just now, HighPeakFox said: That they are becoming a legitimised target in the minds of the ignorant and the angry due to the constant hatred written about them. It may be best that this forum is shut down then, I have read far worse about Leicester players on here, than I have about teachers in the Daily Mail Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
st albans fox Posted 10 July 2023 Share Posted 10 July 2023 1 minute ago, HighPeakFox said: That they are becoming a legitimised target in the minds of the ignorant and the angry due to the constant hatred written about them. Lack of respect = legitimised target that’s quite a leap Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HighPeakFox Posted 10 July 2023 Share Posted 10 July 2023 1 minute ago, st albans fox said: Lack of respect = legitimised target that’s quite a leap Whilst I agree that there are many degrees of separation, if you are repeatedly told something, it starts to become the truth in your head. After that, it can happen easily. It's EXACTLY how propganda works, history shows us over and over how it goes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iniesta Posted 10 July 2023 Share Posted 10 July 2023 2 minutes ago, foxile5 said: That the pervasive criticism of a particular grouping of people - NOT just by the daily mail - has an impact on the thinking of the public. 99% are just informed slightly but there are a small group of people who do violent or destructive things based on the confirmation bias they held making them think terrible things. Do you genuinely think this teacher was stabbed cos teachers bad narrative ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foxile5 Posted 10 July 2023 Share Posted 10 July 2023 Just now, iniesta said: Do you genuinely think this teacher was stabbed cos teachers bad narrative ? I think it was likely an element, yeah. You're trying to make this into X causing Y. It's not as simple as that. I'm not going to waste time trying to convince you. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iniesta Posted 10 July 2023 Share Posted 10 July 2023 1 minute ago, foxile5 said: I think it was likely an element, yeah. You're trying to make this into X causing Y. It's not as simple as that. I'm not going to waste time trying to convince you. I questioned your view that kid stabs teacher cos media, nothing more. You were actually the one who claimed x caused Y. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foxile5 Posted 10 July 2023 Share Posted 10 July 2023 (edited) 2 minutes ago, iniesta said: I questioned your view that kid stabs teacher cos media, nothing more. You were actually the one who claimed x caused Y. I think the media is a contributory factor. You keep saying 'because of' which implies a direct and causal relationship. The two are different. Edited 10 July 2023 by foxile5 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sparrowhawk Posted 10 July 2023 Share Posted 10 July 2023 10 minutes ago, iniesta said: Do you genuinely think this teacher was stabbed cos teachers bad narrative ? They've explained their thinking to you. More than once, and very clearly. If you genuinely don't understand the point they're making, it can surely only be because you don't want to. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sparrowhawk Posted 10 July 2023 Share Posted 10 July 2023 This BBC thing. How come the law says it's ok to shag someone aged 16 or 17 but not to have pictures of them? Any legal eagles on here who can explain that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunge Posted 10 July 2023 Share Posted 10 July 2023 I’m not really sure why iniesta’s getting a pasting here. I remember back in my schooldays hearing about one well-liked teacher who got attacked by a recently-ex student with a baseball bat because he refused to let him into the school gym. He didn’t do that because of media representation of the teaching profession. He did it because he was a thug. It’s entirely possible of course that this particular knife-wielder was influenced by the media, and I’m not condoning certain sections of the media always searching for their latest group to vilify or degrade. But it does occur to me that this kind of thing can happen and always has happened without any real thinking at all beyond opportunity. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nnfox Posted 10 July 2023 Share Posted 10 July 2023 Lots of kids carry knives, lots of kids think violence is ok, lots of kids put a low value on the lives of others. Not that many kids scroll through the Daily Mail. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leicsmac Posted 10 July 2023 Share Posted 10 July 2023 5 minutes ago, Dunge said: I’m not really sure why iniesta’s getting a pasting here. I remember back in my schooldays hearing about one well-liked teacher who got attacked by a recently-ex student with a baseball bat because he refused to let him into the school gym. He didn’t do that because of media representation of the teaching profession. He did it because he was a thug. It’s entirely possible of course that this particular knife-wielder was influenced by the media, and I’m not condoning certain sections of the media always searching for their latest group to vilify or degrade. But it does occur to me that this kind of thing can happen and always has happened without any real thinking at all beyond opportunity. The point people are trying to make is that the odds of one motive against another have shifted and that it is cultural influence, including that of the media, that is responsible for for that shift - and that such influences are pervasive in todays society, despite the efforts of those who think it's all no big deal to claim that every human being is sovereign and somehow immune to such effects. 1 minute ago, nnfox said: Lots of kids carry knives, lots of kids think violence is ok, lots of kids put a low value on the lives of others. Not that many kids scroll through the Daily Mail. See above. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nnfox Posted 10 July 2023 Share Posted 10 July 2023 7 minutes ago, leicsmac said: The point people are trying to make is that the odds of one motive against another have shifted and that it is cultural influence, including that of the media, that is responsible for for that shift - and that such influences are pervasive in todays society, despite the efforts of those who think it's all no big deal to claim that every human being is sovereign and somehow immune to such effects. See above. Cultural influence on kids is massive. It always has been. Nowadays, easy access from anywhere at anytime to gratuitous violence and sexualised images has a huge role to play, as does the celebrity of drill music that glorifies drugs, violence and misogyny. I just find it weird that of all the cultural influence that's out there, it's the main stream media and Daily Mail that's singled out here as a contributory factor on this forum. I'm not saying it isn't, but would think that it rates at about a 1 out of 10 in significance, if that. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leicsmac Posted 10 July 2023 Share Posted 10 July 2023 3 minutes ago, nnfox said: Cultural influence on kids is massive. It always has been. Nowadays, easy access from anywhere at anytime to gratuitous violence and sexualised images has a huge role to play, as does the celebrity of drill music that glorifies drugs, violence and misogyny. I just find it weird that of all the cultural influence that's out there, it's the main stream media and Daily Mail that's singled out here as a contributory factor on this forum. I'm not saying it isn't, but would think that it rates at about a 1 out of 10 in significance, if that. I wish the Mail had never been mentioned in this discussion tbh because it is just one small part of a concerted cultural influence directed against teachers and other figures. It is the overall campaign, of which it is a small part, which is the real problem and which could (italicised for emphasis) have had a hand in this awful incident. Givers of knowledge and those actually seeking to help other people by doing so (whether that's teachers or other related professions) are being targeted because they are challenging the idea that belief and prejudiced opinion carries equal weight to fact - and feeding those beliefs and prejudices is not only profitable for many, but actually considered moral for some, so they don't want these "intellectual lefties" getting in the way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunge Posted 10 July 2023 Share Posted 10 July 2023 4 minutes ago, leicsmac said: The point people are trying to make is that the odds of one motive against another have shifted and that it is cultural influence, including that of the media, that is responsible for for that shift - and that such influences are pervasive in todays society, despite the efforts of those who think it's all no big deal to claim that every human being is sovereign and somehow immune to such effects. See above. Cultural influence has always been a thing though. Its source is new and it’s more widespread rather than localised these days but as a concept it’s been around for an age. Maybe it’ll turn out that the perpetrator here will have been scouring online right wing forums or something. I’m not saying that media reporting isn’t an influence on abuse and aggression - attitudes towards immigration being the obvious example of this. But still many times in cases like this people will do things because they’re either nasty, unwell or both, and the victim had the misfortune simply to be there. *And I do believe that every human being is sovereign and has to take responsibility between a basic right and wrong like this. I really don’t like the argument otherwise because of the implications for society. That some are not taking enough responsibility for their actions is another matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leicsmac Posted 10 July 2023 Share Posted 10 July 2023 7 minutes ago, Dunge said: Cultural influence has always been a thing though. Its source is new and it’s more widespread rather than localised these days but as a concept it’s been around for an age. Maybe it’ll turn out that the perpetrator here will have been scouring online right wing forums or something. I’m not saying that media reporting isn’t an influence on abuse and aggression - attitudes towards immigration being the obvious example of this. But still many times in cases like this people will do things because they’re either nasty, unwell or both, and the victim had the misfortune simply to be there. *And I do believe that every human being is sovereign and has to take responsibility between a basic right and wrong like this. I really don’t like the argument otherwise because of the implications for society. That some are not taking enough responsibility for their actions is another matter. I don't like the implications either- they are extremely unfortunate. However, I think that the extent of such influence in at least some cases is self evident, and I don't think we can shy away from the idea that a human being can be manipulated into doing something against the interest of other people or even themselves, even defying basic ideas of right and wrong. And look to consider and address the situation accordingly rather than burying our collective heads in a sand of idealism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corky Posted 10 July 2023 Share Posted 10 July 2023 Terrifying how freely knife use appears to have become. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StanSP Posted 10 July 2023 Share Posted 10 July 2023 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
st albans fox Posted 10 July 2023 Share Posted 10 July 2023 4 minutes ago, StanSP said: Mark Stephens on fivelive said that the met have looked at the evidence and currently see no case to bring. Presumably the sun have protected themselves by not mentioning any names infact only on SM have names been outed Interesting times - I say we all sue musk ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nnfox Posted 10 July 2023 Share Posted 10 July 2023 And this is exactly why these media frenzies are utterly despicable. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StanSP Posted 10 July 2023 Share Posted 10 July 2023 2 minutes ago, st albans fox said: Mark Stephens on fivelive said that the met have looked at the evidence and currently see no case to bring. Presumably the sun have protected themselves by not mentioning any names infact only on SM have names been outed Interesting times - I say we all sue musk ! It's an interesting one. Sun seem to have broken the story even knowing there may not have been much of a story, so to speak. It's pretty much their standard of practice to do such a thing. It also begs the question of what the mother's intentions were in going to the press (and that being The Sun). Has she fabricated anything? Has she made things worse for her child? Maybe us as the public still aren't getting the full picture, but I feel sorry for the young person in all of this. And anyone at BBC who has had their name dragged into all of it based on nothing (so far). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ARTY_FOX Posted 10 July 2023 Share Posted 10 July 2023 I suspect some sort of deal has gone on and we'll never know the fulk story Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foxile5 Posted 10 July 2023 Share Posted 10 July 2023 6 minutes ago, ARTY_FOX said: I suspect some sort of deal has gone on and we'll never know the fulk story The presenter in question has been totally ****ed over during this very quick process. It's terrifying at which the speed of it has happened. Potentially a career and family lost in twenty four hours. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gubbins Posted 10 July 2023 Share Posted 10 July 2023 2 hours ago, leicsmac said: Givers of knowledge and those actually seeking to help other people by doing so (whether that's teachers or other related professions) are being targeted because they are challenging the idea that belief and prejudiced opinion carries equal weight to fact - and feeding those beliefs and prejudices is not only profitable for many, but actually considered moral for some, so they don't want these "intellectual lefties" getting in the way. This might be right in a general sense but likely isn't in this specific incident. Its infinitely more likely that the pupil here is just either mentally unwell or as a few others on here have mentioned is a standard teenage scumbag who has a grudge for something like being put in detention too often Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foxile5 Posted 10 July 2023 Share Posted 10 July 2023 4 minutes ago, Gubbins said: This might be right in a general sense but likely isn't in this specific incident. Its infinitely more likely that the pupil here is just either mentally unwell or as a few others on here have mentioned is a standard teenage scumbag who has a grudge for something like being put in detention too often But, and this is the point I think being made, the response is informed by the current climate of overt and unwarranted Jesus criticism of that group. The action and response is amplified by the perception presented in the media and not as a direct result of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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