leicsmac Posted 21 August 2023 Share Posted 21 August 2023 12 minutes ago, David Hankey said: The problem is that we are not dealing with "decent" people. If they were they wouldn't have committed the crime. No doubt all this is to do with the do-gooders and the European Court of Human Rights bollocks. ....the do-gooders and the ECHR that have been going since (at least) before 1980? https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2020/759/rule/24.12/made "Under section 11 of the 1980 Act, the court may pass a custodial sentence in the defendant’s absence if the case started with the defendant’s arrest and charge (and not with a summons or requisition)" But don't let that stop the Don-Quixote-tilting-at-windmills attempt. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leicsmac Posted 21 August 2023 Share Posted 21 August 2023 Again though, I'm hearing a lot of talk from a lot of places about compelling convicted defendants to appear for sentencing and it's a good idea, but I'm yet to hear how it would practically be achieved in all cases. Seems like emotionally-driven hot air, exactly the thing the legal system is meant to bypass. Want to make a solution work, there needs to be a practical roadmap for how. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Innovindil Posted 21 August 2023 Share Posted 21 August 2023 1 hour ago, leicsmac said: How, exactly? Duct tape a couple of bouncers would do the trick. Why are people so soft when it comes to punishing monsters. Time and a place for compassion, dealing with someone who murdered babies isn't it. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leicsmac Posted 21 August 2023 Share Posted 21 August 2023 4 minutes ago, Innovindil said: Duct tape a couple of bouncers would do the trick. Why are people so soft when it comes to punishing monsters. Time and a place for compassion, dealing with someone who murdered babies isn't it. Bound to a chair and gagged with duct tape, then? Well, I guess the state is supposed to have a monopoly on violence... Wouldn't it look just a little bit ridiculous for a supposedly civilised country, though? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zear0 Posted 21 August 2023 Share Posted 21 August 2023 4 minutes ago, Innovindil said: Duct tape a couple of bouncers would do the trick. Why are people so soft when it comes to punishing monsters. Time and a place for compassion, dealing with someone who murdered babies isn't it. Not sure people are concerned about being heavy handed with the buggers, more relates to their behaviour when/if they're dragged back into the dock. If you know, like Letby did, they're throwing away the key, these lowlives could behave in a manner that makes it even worse (being dismissive, agressive, rude etc. to the victim's family). Why I posted earlier at it being at the families discretion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Innovindil Posted 21 August 2023 Share Posted 21 August 2023 Just now, leicsmac said: Bound to a chair and gagged with duct tape, then? Well, I guess the state is supposed to have a monopoly on violence... Wouldn't it look just a little bit ridiculous for a supposedly civilised country, though? If it makes the victims feel a tiny bit better, I don't think so no. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leicsmac Posted 21 August 2023 Share Posted 21 August 2023 3 minutes ago, Zear0 said: Not sure people are concerned about being heavy handed with the buggers, more relates to their behaviour when/if they're dragged back into the dock. If you know, like Letby did, they're throwing away the key, these lowlives could behave in a manner that makes it even worse (being dismissive, agressive, rude etc. to the victim's family). Why I posted earlier at it being at the families discretion. I think the solution implied here would mean the defendant wouldn't be able to do any of those things by virtue of not being able to move or speak. 2 minutes ago, Innovindil said: If it makes the victims feel a tiny bit better, I don't think so no. A convict duct-taped to a chair and gagged for their public sentencing hearing, regardless of their crime doesn't seem overly banana-republic? Fair enough, man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FoxesDeb Posted 21 August 2023 Share Posted 21 August 2023 15 minutes ago, Innovindil said: Duct tape a couple of bouncers would do the trick. Why are people so soft when it comes to punishing monsters. Time and a place for compassion, dealing with someone who murdered babies isn't it. I don't think I could be in agreement with this under any circumstances, but especially not unless the evidence of guilt was completely and utterly watertight, which it very rarely is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Innovindil Posted 21 August 2023 Share Posted 21 August 2023 4 minutes ago, leicsmac said: I think the solution implied here would mean the defendant wouldn't be able to do any of those things by virtue of not being able to move or speak. A convict duct-taped to a chair and gagged for their public sentencing hearing, regardless of their crime doesn't seem overly banana-republic? Fair enough, man. I didn't say regardless of their crime. Clearly you're not strapping someone with a parking ticket down. But reserved for those truly evil monsters that get whole life orders? Absolutely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Innovindil Posted 21 August 2023 Share Posted 21 August 2023 1 minute ago, FoxesDeb said: I don't think I could be in agreement with this under any circumstances, but especially not unless the evidence of guilt was completely and utterly watertight, which it very rarely is. Not talking about pulling fingernails deb, just being forced to listen to the victims of your crimes. Weirdly somehow I feel a bed and 3 meals a day isn't punishment enough for this level of evilness. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Hankey Posted 21 August 2023 Share Posted 21 August 2023 18 minutes ago, leicsmac said: Bound to a chair and gagged with duct tape, then? Well, I guess the state is supposed to have a monopoly on violence... Wouldn't it look just a little bit ridiculous for a supposedly civilised country, though? "Civilised society"!! How often to we hear that? Letby was most certainly not civilised. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paninistickers Posted 21 August 2023 Share Posted 21 August 2023 1 minute ago, Innovindil said: Not talking about pulling fingernails deb, just being forced to listen to the victims of your crimes. Weirdly somehow I feel a bed and 3 meals a day isn't punishment enough for this level of evilness. I know it doesn't sound much, but I wonder (hope) if in fact it is the 'best' punishment.. Lucy Letby has around 50 years now with everything stripped away from her. Hope. Ambition. Things to look forward to. Travel. Fun. Even self educating in a subject is totally pointless. She's walking dead. For 50 years. I'd like to think that she suffers in that time. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leicsmac Posted 21 August 2023 Share Posted 21 August 2023 3 minutes ago, Innovindil said: I didn't say regardless of their crime. Clearly you're not strapping someone with a parking ticket down. But reserved for those truly evil monsters that get whole life orders? Absolutely. Right, I said it, and I think that while what this woman did was utterly heinous and she should spend the rest of her life in jail, there's a reason the state doesn't get to inflict direct violence on anyone as a punishment for crime any more. 1 minute ago, David Hankey said: "Civilised society"!! How often to we hear that? Letby was most certainly not civilised. She certainly wasn't. And the distinction between her and the justice system that convicted her - and wider society that backs it - is actually rather important. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post SpacedX Posted 21 August 2023 Popular Post Share Posted 21 August 2023 (edited) 56 minutes ago, David Hankey said: No doubt all this is to do with the do-gooders and the European Court of Human Rights bollocks. Oh dear God. Edited 21 August 2023 by Line-X 5 9 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lionator Posted 21 August 2023 Share Posted 21 August 2023 2 minutes ago, Line-X said: Oh dear God. Honestly I would never call anyone who voted to leave the EU thick or stupid, because there’s very valid reasons why people wanted change. However anyone who would support the removal of their human rights would be daft as hell. You do not appreciate what you’d be losing. I just can’t wait for the ‘Churchill was woke’ posts. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bovril Posted 21 August 2023 Share Posted 21 August 2023 8 minutes ago, Paninistickers said: I know it doesn't sound much, but I wonder (hope) if in fact it is the 'best' punishment.. Lucy Letby has around 50 years now with everything stripped away from her. Hope. Ambition. Things to look forward to. Travel. Fun. Even self educating in a subject is totally pointless. She's walking dead. For 50 years. I'd like to think that she suffers in that time. Yeah she'd probably rather die to be honest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lionator Posted 21 August 2023 Share Posted 21 August 2023 3 hours ago, ClaphamFox said: But would it really be worth doing that for a sentencing when the families of the victims are in attendance? Will it really be beneficial to have a defendant shouting over impact statements, making gestures to the victim's families, putting their hands over their ears, screaming while the judge delivers the verdict, etc? The reading of impact statements and the judge's sentencing should surely be a sombre, dignified occasion - what's the point in dragging somebody into the dock only to have to remove them again because they're disrupting proceedings? It just seems counterproductive. There was an example given the other day discussing the Lee Rigby case and the two defendants who were dragged to the dock. They ended up putting two prison guards in hospital and retraumatising his family. Given they were getting a whole life order, you’d have to ask what is the point? 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BKLFox Posted 21 August 2023 Share Posted 21 August 2023 There or not there Its a tough 1either way, what about those monsters that sit & grin at the family members in the court room showing no remorse & despite being given a life sentence the family members have to deal with that last (& lasting) image of the person that's killed their love 1, i'm sure it would be hard to switch that off in your head by saying who's grinning now with someone like that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Lionator Posted 21 August 2023 Popular Post Share Posted 21 August 2023 5 minutes ago, BKLFox said: There or not there Its a tough 1either way, what about those monsters that sit & grin at the family members in the court room showing no remorse & despite being given a life sentence the family members have to deal with that last (& lasting) image of the person that's killed their love 1, i'm sure it would be hard to switch that off in your head by saying who's grinning now with someone like that. As horrific as it is, we should never make laws based on highly emotive individual cases. For example, I’m sure people say Letby should be put to death but for every Letby there is an Andrew Makinson. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Footballwipe Posted 21 August 2023 Share Posted 21 August 2023 These crimes are grotesque as it is, but watching the country clamour to degrade itself back to medieval times when they take place really is quite sad. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bordersfox Posted 21 August 2023 Share Posted 21 August 2023 (edited) 11 minutes ago, Lionator said: Honestly I would never call anyone who voted to leave the EU thick or stupid, because there’s very valid reasons why people wanted change. However anyone who would support the removal of their human rights would be daft as hell. You do not appreciate what you’d be losing. I just can’t wait for the ‘Churchill was woke’ posts. People often misquote Winston Churchill as having said that we can judge the level of civilisation in a society by the way it treats its prisoners. In fact, it was Fyodor Dostoyevsky who said: "The degree of civilisation in a society is revealed by entering its prisons." Winston Churchill actually said that a society's attitude to its prisoners, its "criminals", is the measure of "the stored up strength of a nation". He also said. We must not forget that when every material improvement has been effected in prisons, when the temperature has been rightly adjusted, when the proper food to maintain health and strength has been given, when the doctors, chaplains and prison visitors have come and gone, the convict stands deprived of everything that a free man calls life. We must not forget that all these improvements, which are sometimes salves to our consciences, do not change that position. Fvck me Churchill was a right woke warrior wasn't he after all? Always was suspicious of a man who wore silk onezies. Edited 21 August 2023 by Bordersfox 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leicsmac Posted 21 August 2023 Share Posted 21 August 2023 Something suggested to me that could be used as a method to compel someone to attend a sentencing hearing when adding time would be of no use: loss of some of the privileges some prisoners have within the prison itself. That is used elsewhere. Not sure how effective it would be, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FoxesDeb Posted 21 August 2023 Share Posted 21 August 2023 36 minutes ago, Innovindil said: Not talking about pulling fingernails deb, just being forced to listen to the victims of your crimes. Weirdly somehow I feel a bed and 3 meals a day isn't punishment enough for this level of evilness. Like I said earlier though, I'm not sure I see the benefit of it. If someone really is callous enough to commit these kinds of crimes I doubt listening to their victims would move them, and could possibly do more harm to the poor victims having to watch. I still have a bit of an issue with doling out what I would see as extreme punishment in cases where we cannot be 100% certain we have convicted the right person, too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guesty Posted 21 August 2023 Share Posted 21 August 2023 When you watch this she goes through the reasons it's not really workable. If you've not got time to watch. She basically says the sentencing is one of the most important points in a trial. It's all about the victim, victims family, the law and why the judge has reached the sentence they have. It shouldn't be about any actions the perpetrator might carryout during the sentencing. Like shouting abuse, screaming about their innocence or even crying and wailing loudly as if they're the victim. She says more, but basically: when facing a whole life sentence there's not really much you can do to encourage someone to attend. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grebfromgrebland Posted 21 August 2023 Share Posted 21 August 2023 1 hour ago, leicsmac said: I think the solution implied here would mean the defendant wouldn't be able to do any of those things by virtue of not being able to move or speak. A convict duct-taped to a chair and gagged for their public sentencing hearing, regardless of their crime doesn't seem overly banana-republic? Fair enough, man. We're a lot more like a banana republic than you give us credit for. We've literally got a government that wants to get rid of the ECHR. The level of corruption is off the scale and we worship a king. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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