Also in the News - Part 2

[samlcfc]

8 hours ago, Jon the Hat said:

This is exactly right, and while liberal fox does it in a much nicer way, he still implies we are bigots to question the insanity, to point out the very real risks to women, and indeed to kids unfortunate enough to find themselves encouraged into this nonsense who end up irreparably damaged and medicated for life.

I understand where pro-trans arguments with such passion come from, having trans friends who are perfectly well-adjusted and happy adults. This feeling can be bolstered when you see that they are vulnerable to getting assaulted in public places because they don't fit many people's societal paradigm.

 

At the end of the day, most well-meaning people are trying to look out for others welfare and it's certainly a hard subject to know where to land on given the circus around it in recent years.

 

I've also seen people question their gender identity briefly, somewhat due to peer pressure, and further seemingly start to feel more comfortable in themselves following conversations around the subject. In this respect, therapeutic models are a big part of pre-transition healthcare.

 

Beyond anecdotes, Gender Dysphoria is a specific diagnosis within the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders. Psychology is a science and there's a lot of research advising on strong positive results for those that do transition, which makes comments around irreparable damage a bit strong, especially when suicide is often seen amongst those suffering. Psychologists aren't magic and there are negative results amongst people who transition, but their aim is to safeguard lives within our best understanding.

 

Hopefully as time progresses, these results will become more positive with developing practices and beyond that, I imagine the best way to safeguard children whose issues can be explained and treated under other diagnoses, is investment in provision of Mental Healthcare. 

 

I have to work at the moment, but I will try to update with some research etc that might be helpful to the discussion.

 

 

 

 

[leicsmac]

9 minutes ago, samlcfc said:

I understand where pro-trans arguments with such passion come from, having trans friends who are perfectly well-adjusted and happy adults. This feeling can be bolstered when you see that they are vulnerable to getting assaulted in public places because they don't fit many people's societal paradigm.

 

At the end of the day, most well-meaning people are trying to look out for others welfare and it's certainly a hard subject to know where to land on given the circus around it in recent years.

 

I've also seen people question their gender identity briefly, somewhat due to peer pressure, and further seemingly start to feel more comfortable in themselves following conversations around the subject. In this respect, therapeutic models are a big part of pre-transition healthcare.

 

Beyond anecdotes, Gender Dysphoria is a specific diagnosis within the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders. Psychology is a science and there's a lot of research advising on strong positive results for those that do transition, which makes comments around irreparable damage a bit strong, especially when suicide is often seen amongst those suffering. Psychologists aren't magic and there are negative results amongst people who transition, but their aim is to safeguard lives within our best understanding.

 

Hopefully as time progresses, these results will become more positive with developing practices and beyond that, I imagine the best way to safeguard children whose issues can be explained and treated under other diagnoses, is investment in provision of Mental Healthcare. 

 

I have to work at the moment, but I will try to update with some research etc that might be helpful to the discussion.

 

 

 

 

... thank you for doing the logical, rather than emotive (as I have), heavy lifting here.

[Captain...]

27 minutes ago, samlcfc said:

I understand where pro-trans arguments with such passion come from, having trans friends who are perfectly well-adjusted and happy adults. This feeling can be bolstered when you see that they are vulnerable to getting assaulted in public places because they don't fit many people's societal paradigm.

 

At the end of the day, most well-meaning people are trying to look out for others welfare and it's certainly a hard subject to know where to land on given the circus around it in recent years.

 

I've also seen people question their gender identity briefly, somewhat due to peer pressure, and further seemingly start to feel more comfortable in themselves following conversations around the subject. In this respect, therapeutic models are a big part of pre-transition healthcare.

 

Beyond anecdotes, Gender Dysphoria is a specific diagnosis within the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders. Psychology is a science and there's a lot of research advising on strong positive results for those that do transition, which makes comments around irreparable damage a bit strong, especially when suicide is often seen amongst those suffering. Psychologists aren't magic and there are negative results amongst people who transition, but their aim is to safeguard lives within our best understanding.

 

Hopefully as time progresses, these results will become more positive with developing practices and beyond that, I imagine the best way to safeguard children whose issues can be explained and treated under other diagnoses, is investment in provision of Mental Healthcare. 

 

I have to work at the moment, but I will try to update with some research etc that might be helpful to the discussion.

 

 

 

 

Great response, I started a post yesterday then just couldn't see the point. Unfortunately the extremists on both sides make any sort of rational debate difficult.

 

I do struggle with the trans debate, because whilst I don't think it should be made harder for trans people I also think that it is such a huge thing to undertake that it shouldn't ever be taken lightly. Puberty blockers, hormone therapy, major operations are serious business and with risks.

 

There also needs to be practical safeguarding on all sides whether it is prisons, changing rooms or safe spaces. The Isla Bryson incident is an anti trans campaigner's wet dream. It is clear to anyone she should not be detained with other women. However the tragic story of Brianna Ghey shows the other side of safeguarding. 

 

Ultimately the solution is in your first paragraph, the societal paradigm needs to change so everyone can feel comfortable living their best life and others don't feel threatened by the way someone else is living. We need more people like Sam Smith and Eddie Izzard just being themselves without taking hormones or having operations. Fix society and a lot of these issues disappear. Easier said than done.

Edited 16 February 2023 by Captain...

[ClaphamFox]

4 minutes ago, Captain... said:

Great response, I started a post yesterday then just couldn't see the point. Unfortunately the extremists on both sides make any sort of rational debate difficult.

 

I do struggle with the trans debate, because whilst I don't think it should be made harder for trans people I also think that it is such a huge thing to undertake that it shouldn't ever be taken lightly. Puberty blockers, hormone therapy, major operations are serious business and with risks.

 

There also needs to be practical safeguarding on all sides whether it is prisons, changing rooms or safe spaces. The Isla Bryson incident is an anti trans campaigner's wet dream. It is clear to anyone she should not be detained with other women. However the tragic story of Brianna Ghey shows the other side of safeguarding. 

 

Ultimately the solution is in your first paragraph, the societal paradigm needs to change so everyone can feel comfortable living their best life and others don't feel threatened by the way someone else is living. We need more people like Sam Smith and Eddie Izzard just being themselves without taking hormones or having operations. Fix society and a lot of these issues disappear. Easier said than done.

Some of the stuff coming out from whistleblowers who used to work at the Tavistock Institute is deeply disturbing. Apparently many clinicians and therapists who worked there were deeply concerned that they were pushing vulnerable, confused and in many cases autistic teenagers down an unnecessary medical path far too early, but anybody who tried to express their doubts was aggressively shut down. The leaders of the Institute were so under the influence of transgender charities that they neglected their duty of care as medical professionals. There's a book being published on the collapse of the Tavistock next week.

 

I think Sturgeon's mistake was to be the first leader in the UK to actually try to turn gender theology into concrete policy. In doing so she offered herself up as a guinea pig to test how this stuff would play out in reality, and thereby provide other party leaders with useful lesson to learn from. Like the SNP, the Labour Party and the Lib Dems at one point seemed to regard the gender issue as basically gay rights 2.0 - that the public would eventually accept self-ID in the same way that it accepted people's rights to choose their own sexual partners. Sturgeon's experience in Scotland would suggest this was a miscalculation. There are already signs that Labour has taken note and is subtly changing course.

[Captain...]

5 minutes ago, ClaphamFox said:

Some of the stuff coming out from whistleblowers who used to work at the Tavistock Institute is deeply disturbing. Apparently many clinicians and therapists who worked there were deeply concerned that they were pushing vulnerable, confused and in many cases autistic teenagers down an unnecessary medical path far too early, but anybody who tried to express their doubts was aggressively shut down. The leaders of the Institute were so under the influence of transgender charities that they neglected their duty of care as medical professionals. There's a book being published on the collapse of the Tavistock next week.

 

I think Sturgeon's mistake was to be the first leader in the UK to actually try to turn gender theology into concrete policy. In doing so she offered herself up as a guinea pig to test how this stuff would play out in reality, and thereby provide other party leaders with useful lesson to learn from. Like the SNP, the Labour Party and the Lib Dems at one point seemed to regard the gender issue as basically gay rights 2.0 - that the public would eventually accept self-ID in the same way that it accepted people's rights to choose their own sexual partners. Sturgeon's experience in Scotland would suggest this was a miscalculation. There are already signs that Labour has taken note and is subtly changing course.

That doesn't sound good about Tavistock, just going to be more fuel to the flames. 

[leicsmac]

26 minutes ago, ClaphamFox said:

Some of the stuff coming out from whistleblowers who used to work at the Tavistock Institute is deeply disturbing. Apparently many clinicians and therapists who worked there were deeply concerned that they were pushing vulnerable, confused and in many cases autistic teenagers down an unnecessary medical path far too early, but anybody who tried to express their doubts was aggressively shut down. The leaders of the Institute were so under the influence of transgender charities that they neglected their duty of care as medical professionals. There's a book being published on the collapse of the Tavistock next week.

 

I think Sturgeon's mistake was to be the first leader in the UK to actually try to turn gender theology into concrete policy. In doing so she offered herself up as a guinea pig to test how this stuff would play out in reality, and thereby provide other party leaders with useful lesson to learn from. Like the SNP, the Labour Party and the Lib Dems at one point seemed to regard the gender issue as basically gay rights 2.0 - that the public would eventually accept self-ID in the same way that it accepted people's rights to choose their own sexual partners. Sturgeon's experience in Scotland would suggest this was a miscalculation. There are already signs that Labour has taken note and is subtly changing course.

 

19 minutes ago, Captain... said:

That doesn't sound good about Tavistock, just going to be more fuel to the flames. 

The flames are already burning tbh - as you said, Brianna Ghey was murdered this week   Even if it turns out that her murder was nothing to do with her identity, numerous other examples exist - when was the last time someone was killed purely because their gender identity lined up in a way they didn't feel they had to change?

[leicsmac]

Anyhow, an international news digest:

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-64659795

 

That all sounds rather dystopian.

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-64659861

 

This on the other hand just sounds petty.

[LiberalFox]

To me as a non-binary person a lot of this is just disturbing to read. I can understand it's not helpful just to call people a bigot. But from the people who are clearly anti-trans, they in their own words are telling me that my attempts to reason with them are taken as polite ways of calling them bigots. And they seem to be primarily bothered in these discussions in trying to seek validation for the beliefs they already hold. This is in line with what other trans and non-binary people tell me and that is that once people have immersed themselves in transphobia, whether that's from the news media or from people they know then it's not really possible to reason with them.

 

Even more moderate people like @Captain...seem credulous to transphobic beliefs and seem to be 'both sidesing' the issue.

 

Quote

'There also needs to be practical safeguarding on all sides whether it is prisons, changing rooms or safe spaces. The Isla Bryson incident is an anti trans campaigner's wet dream. It is clear to anyone she should not be detained with other women. However the tragic story of Brianna Ghey shows the other side of safeguarding.' 

If you read my response earlier in the topic I explain how there was never any danger from Isla Bryson having an initial assessment in an isolated part of a women's prison. I've tried to distance myself a bit from the Brianna Ghey murder because it's too upsetting. But it's disturbing to compare something that was never dangerous but got exploited by the tabloids with the murder of a trans person as though they are somehow equally important. That's how it feels like at the moment. A rapist randomly calls themselves a woman and that's all over the press for days and it results in trans people losing rights. Then a young trans girl is murdered and that gets almost no attention.

 

Trans people's biggest issue is being a minority. And as a minority you are vulnerable to being made a 'debate' or an 'issue' for the wider public to discuss and solve. A lot this stuff wouldn't bother me if I knew it was just people chatting shit on the internet. But I fear transphobia is going to get nastier for a while and there will be attempts to pass anti-trans legislation over here as there already is in the USA. It doesn't affect me personally in a massive way because I'm sure medical transition isn't right for me and I feel like as a functioning adult I have a stable identity and sense of self outside of my gender identity. But it does make me worry for binary trans people and it's sad that children are probably going to be denied the correct care in line with current best practice because of government interference in the medical system. I also fear some sort of Section 28 style law restricting what can be taught to children and making it harder to support children who are gender questioning. Which would be stupid especially now that they can just use the internet and talk to absolutely anyone who could be an unsafe person. 

 

I don't want to spend too much time on this though. In some ways if people just want to have a debate then it just gives me a picture of what kind of things people are believing. 

[Captain...]

12 minutes ago, LiberalFox said:

To me as a non-binary person a lot of this is just disturbing to read. I can understand it's not helpful just to call people a bigot. But from the people who are clearly anti-trans, they in their own words are telling me that my attempts to reason with them are taken as polite ways of calling them bigots. And they seem to be primarily bothered in these discussions in trying to seek validation for the beliefs they already hold. This is in line with what other trans and non-binary people tell me and that is that once people have immersed themselves in transphobia, whether that's from the news media or from people they know then it's not really possible to reason with them.

 

Even more moderate people like @Captain...seem credulous to transphobic beliefs and seem to be 'both sidesing' the issue.

 

If you read my response earlier in the topic I explain how there was never any danger from Isla Bryson having an initial assessment in an isolated part of a women's prison. I've tried to distance myself a bit from the Brianna Ghey murder because it's too upsetting. But it's disturbing to compare something that was never dangerous but got exploited by the tabloids with the murder of a trans person as though they are somehow equally important. That's how it feels like at the moment. A rapist randomly calls themselves a woman and that's all over the press for days and it results in trans people losing rights. Then a young trans girl is murdered and that gets almost no attention.

 

Trans people's biggest issue is being a minority. And as a minority you are vulnerable to being made a 'debate' or an 'issue' for the wider public to discuss and solve. A lot this stuff wouldn't bother me if I knew it was just people chatting shit on the internet. But I fear transphobia is going to get nastier for a while and there will be attempts to pass anti-trans legislation over here as there already is in the USA. It doesn't affect me personally in a massive way because I'm sure medical transition isn't right for me and I feel like as a functioning adult I have a stable identity and sense of self outside of my gender identity. But it does make me worry for binary trans people and it's sad that children are probably going to be denied the correct care in line with current best practice because of government interference in the medical system. I also fear some sort of Section 28 style law restricting what can be taught to children and making it harder to support children who are gender questioning. Which would be stupid especially now that they can just use the internet and talk to absolutely anyone who could be an unsafe person. 

 

I don't want to spend too much time on this though. In some ways if people just want to have a debate then it just gives me a picture of what kind of things people are believing. 

I'm sorry if my comments appeared to equate the tragedy of Brianna with the ridiculousness of the Isla Bryson situation. It was just 2 high profile current affairs. What happened with Brianna Ghey is so tragic and just highlights the dangers of stirring up anti trans feelings. Yet the handling of the Isla Bryson case, even though no women were put in danger, has just fed the anti trans agenda and it was largely avoidable.

 

I don't think 'both sideing' should be seen as a bad thing I am neither trans nor a vulnerable woman I need to be able to look at both sides to try and form an opinion. Isla Bryson should in no way be in a female prison, but that doesn't mean trans women should all go to a male prison, that is equally ludicrous. Then I think should there be a third type of prison for trans people? but that doesn't seem like a solution either. Then do you take each trans person on a case by case basis? If so how do you judge? You can't base it on genitalia that's dehumanising, but you need to consider the safety of a trans man who has not yet had surgery are they at greater risk in a male prison? However if they have had a lot of hormone therapy should they be in a female prison where they will be considerably stronger than an average female? Then I think maybe we should focus on prisons not being places of violence where strength is the dominant force and every prisoner is 'vulnerable in the showers'. Maybe we should have mixed prisons (obviously not with violent rapists). Again that doesn't solve the here and now. So we're back to square one.

 

It's tough to work through what the correct course of action is, take sport for example if Tyson Fury came out as a woman there is absolutely no way he should be allowed to fight in the women's heavy weight division. However if Caster Semenya came out as a man of course there should be no barrier to her competing in male competitions. The problem is there is no clear right and wrong it's all about trying to balance safety and fairness with rights and compassion. I don't think there is a solution that will satisfy everyone.

[samlcfc]

8 hours ago, samlcfc said:

I understand where pro-trans arguments with such passion come from, having trans friends who are perfectly well-adjusted and happy adults. This feeling can be bolstered when you see that they are vulnerable to getting assaulted in public places because they don't fit many people's societal paradigm.

 

At the end of the day, most well-meaning people are trying to look out for others welfare and it's certainly a hard subject to know where to land on given the circus around it in recent years.

 

I've also seen people question their gender identity briefly, somewhat due to peer pressure, and further seemingly start to feel more comfortable in themselves following conversations around the subject. In this respect, therapeutic models are a big part of pre-transition healthcare.

 

Beyond anecdotes, Gender Dysphoria is a specific diagnosis within the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders. Psychology is a science and there's a lot of research advising on strong positive results for those that do transition, which makes comments around irreparable damage a bit strong, especially when suicide is often seen amongst those suffering. Psychologists aren't magic and there are negative results amongst people who transition, but their aim is to safeguard lives within our best understanding.

 

Hopefully as time progresses, these results will become more positive with developing practices and beyond that, I imagine the best way to safeguard children whose issues can be explained and treated under other diagnoses, is investment in provision of Mental Healthcare. 

 

I have to work at the moment, but I will try to update with some research etc that might be helpful to the discussion.

 

 

From a psychological point of view, I thought it was interesting to see the below when I went looking for a bit of reading on the subject. Note: This isn't the extent of research on the matter.

 

I guess some of the takeaway in the context of popular discussion, is that we should try not to let organisational failures undermine science and cause more harm than good when moving forward with policy etc. Behind the arguing of activists and talking heads, there are people just looking for an opportunity to get better and even save their own lives.

 

Without being massively knowledgable on the subject, I feel that where the science is validating transgender people, it is also relevant to discussions such as those around safeguarding prisoners.

 

Where this and similar safeguarding concerns exist in society, they are primarily around protecting people from people with bad-intentions. Transgender people may make up a tiny minority of a population, but that doesn't prevent bad people from exisiting in that population. We need to find a way of dealing with those people without attaching the problems they cause to a group they share parts of their identity with.

 

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

• Bauer, et al., 2015: Transition reducing the risk of suicide attempts. Less attempts further along in process.

 

• Moody, et al., 2013: Facilitating transtion in addition to family and social acceptance, as largest factors to reducing suicide risk.

 

• Young Adult Psychological Outcome After Puberty Suppression and Gender Reassignment: A clinical protocol of a multidisciplinary team with mental health professionals, physicians, and surgeons, including puberty suppression, ... cross-sex hormones and gender reassignment surgery, provides trans youth the opportunity to develop into well-functioning young adults. All showed significant improvement in their psychological health, and they had notably lower rates of internalizing psychopathology than previously reported among trans children living as their natal sex. Well-being was similar to or better than same-age young adults from the general population.

 

• The only disorders more common among trans people are those associated with abuse and discrimination - mainly anxiety and depression. Early transition virtually eliminates these higher rates of depression and low self-worth, and dramatically improves trans youth's mental health Trans kids who socially transition early and not subjected to abuse are comparable to cisgender children in measures of mental health.

 

• Dr Ryan Gorton: "In a cross-sectional study of 141 transgender patients, Kuiper and Cohen-Kittenis found that after medical intervention and treatments, suicide fell from 19% to 0% in transgender men and from 24% to 6% in transgender women”

 

• Murad, et al., 2010: Significant decrease in suicidality post-treatment. The average reduction was from 30 percent pretreatment to 8 percent post treatment.

 

• De Cuypere, et al., 2006: Rate of suicide attempts dropped from 29.3 percent to 5.1 percent after receiving medical treatment among Dutch patients treated from 1986-2001.

 

• McNeil, et al., 2012: Suicidal ideation and actual attempts reduced after transition, with 63% thinking about or attempting suicide more before they transitioned and only 3% thinking about or attempting suicide more post-transition.

 

• Smith Y, 2005: Participants improved on 13 out of 14 mental health measures after treatmen

 

• Lawrence, 2003: Surveyed post-op trans folk: "Participants reported overwhelmingly that they were happy with their SRS results and that SRS had greatly improved the quality of their lives

 

• Reduction in Mental Health Treatment Utilization Among Transgender Individuals After Gender-Affirming Surgeries: A Total Population Study: "Conclusions: "... the longitudinal association between gender-affirming surgery and reduced likelihood of mental health treatment lends support to the decision to provide gender-affirming surgeries to transgender individuals who seek them."

 

• This 2010 meta-analysis of 28 different studies, which found that transition is extremely effective at reducing dysphoria and improving quality of life.

Edited 16 February 2023 by samlcfc

[samlcfc]

7 hours ago, leicsmac said:

Anyhow, an international news digest:

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-64659795

 

That all sounds rather dystopian.

 

I feel so bad for these people. I'm glad they are managing to get their own people in to either validate their concerns, or validate that what they are being told is true with regards to safety.

 

If they do experience health issues, I can't imagine the fight they'd have on their hands to get someone to take responsibility.

[Captain...]

12 minutes ago, samlcfc said:

 

From a psychological point of view, I thought it was interesting to see the below when I went looking for a bit of reading on the subject. Note: This isn't the extent of research on the matter.

 

I guess some of the takeaway in the context of popular discussion, is that we should try not to let organisational failures undermine science and cause more harm than good when moving forward with policy etc. Behind the arguing of activists and talking heads, there are people just looking for an opportunity to get better and even save their own lives.

 

Without being massively knowledgable on the subject, I feel that where the science is validating transgender people, it is also relevant to discussions such as those around safeguarding prisoners.

 

Where this and similar safeguarding concerns exist in society, they are primarily around protecting people from people with bad-intentions. Transgender people may make up a tiny minority of a population, but that doesn't prevent bad people from exisiting in that population. We need to find a way of dealing with those people without attaching the problems they cause to a group they share parts of their identity with.

 

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

• Bauer, et al., 2015: Transition reducing the risk of suicide attempts. Less attempts further along in process.

 

• Moody, et al., 2013: Facilitating transtion in addition to family and social acceptance, as largest factors to reducing suicide risk.

 

• Young Adult Psychological Outcome After Puberty Suppression and Gender Reassignment: A clinical protocol of a multidisciplinary team with mental health professionals, physicians, and surgeons, including puberty suppression, ... cross-sex hormones and gender reassignment surgery, provides trans youth the opportunity to develop into well-functioning young adults. All showed significant improvement in their psychological health, and they had notably lower rates of internalizing psychopathology than previously reported among trans children living as their natal sex. Well-being was similar to or better than same-age young adults from the general population.

 

• The only disorders more common among trans people are those associated with abuse and discrimination - mainly anxiety and depression. Early transition virtually eliminates these higher rates of depression and low self-worth, and dramatically improves trans youth's mental health Trans kids who socially transition early and not subjected to abuse are comparable to cisgender children in measures of mental health.

 

• Dr Ryan Gorton: "In a cross-sectional study of 141 transgender patients, Kuiper and Cohen-Kittenis found that after medical intervention and treatments, suicide fell from 19% to 0% in transgender men and from 24% to 6% in transgender women”

 

• Murad, et al., 2010: Significant decrease in suicidality post-treatment. The average reduction was from 30 percent pretreatment to 8 percent post treatment.

 

• De Cuypere, et al., 2006: Rate of suicide attempts dropped from 29.3 percent to 5.1 percent after receiving medical treatment among Dutch patients treated from 1986-2001.

 

• McNeil, et al., 2012: Suicidal ideation and actual attempts reduced after transition, with 63% thinking about or attempting suicide more before they transitioned and only 3% thinking about or attempting suicide more post-transition.

 

• Smith Y, 2005: Participants improved on 13 out of 14 mental health measures after treatmen

 

• Lawrence, 2003: Surveyed post-op trans folk: "Participants reported overwhelmingly that they were happy with their SRS results and that SRS had greatly improved the quality of their lives

 

• Reduction in Mental Health Treatment Utilization Among Transgender Individuals After Gender-Affirming Surgeries: A Total Population Study: "Conclusions: "... the longitudinal association between gender-affirming surgery and reduced likelihood of mental health treatment lends support to the decision to provide gender-affirming surgeries to transgender individuals who seek them."

 

• This 2010 meta-analysis of 28 different studies, which found that transition is extremely effective at reducing dysphoria and improving quality of life.

Whilst I agree with sentiment, the safeguarding issue is not just about protection from trans people with bad intentions, which will be a tiny minority. The safeguarding issue arises around woman feeling vulnerable whilst in a "safe space". The argument is that vulnerable woman, such as victims of abuse and assault, which is a worryingly high number, will get triggered and feel threatened by the meer presence of a trans woman in their toilets/ changing rooms/sauna etc. Regardless of their intentions. Just the presence of a trans woman in a gender segregated area could cause distress to some people.

 

Now I'm not 100% in agreement with this argument, but I do understand it and it is not for me (not a vulnerable woman) to dismiss this argument as just transphobia. Obviously there are different stages of transition and each trans woman will look different with some appearing more masculine, and therefore threatening than others. Again like the prison situation I don't know how you solve this issue without creating trans spaces which seems exclusionary rather than inclusive, not to mention impractical. There is also the increased risk of a trans woman being abused verbally and physically for being in the wrong space.

 

So what do you do? You can't tell the millions of victims of abuse to just get over it and you can't tell a trans woman that she's not allowed to use female spaces.

 

[LiberalFox]

Greatly appreciate you putting up those studies @samlcfc

 

I sometimes forget just how clear cut the studies are as to the benefits of transition for those who need it.

 

 

 

 

[samlcfc]

3 minutes ago, Captain... said:

Whilst I agree with sentiment, the safeguarding issue is not just about protection from trans people with bad intentions, which will be a tiny minority. The safeguarding issue arises around woman feeling vulnerable whilst in a "safe space". The argument is that vulnerable woman, such as victims of abuse and assault, which is a worryingly high number, will get triggered and feel threatened by the meer presence of a trans woman in their toilets/ changing rooms/sauna etc. Regardless of their intentions. Just the presence of a trans woman in a gender segregated area could cause distress to some people.

Good point, well raised.

 

Some of the issues are going to be pretty difficult to deal with. I guess we have to try and move forward as positively as possible, allowing for structural changes in society to follow as appropriate in due course.

 

Obviously this only slightly covers it, but I'd personally love to see more done to provide and increase acceptance of mental health treatment. Even outside of the transgender subject, it'd be great to see people be treated for their trauma using the methods that exist but are not available. It's shitty to think that people are suffering from health problems that treatments are available for, purely because they exist in the mind.

[Captain...]

17 minutes ago, samlcfc said:

Good point, well raised.

 

Some of the issues are going to be pretty difficult to deal with. I guess we have to try and move forward as positively as possible, allowing for structural changes in society to follow as appropriate in due course.

 

Obviously this only slightly covers it, but I'd personally love to see more done to provide and increase acceptance of mental health treatment. Even outside of the transgender subject, it'd be great to see people be treated for their trauma using the methods that exist but are not available. It's shitty to think that people are suffering from health problems that treatments are available for, purely because they exist in the mind.

In terms of structural changes in society you can see it on a smaller scale with more and more independent bars and coffee shops having more inclusive toilets. Although it is easier to have unisex toilets in a small cafe. The change needs to come at a wider level.

 

On the subject of normalising mental health and treatment. It's quite interesting watching kids TV these days, cbeebies is full of programmes that promote diversity and inclusivity with children with all kinds of physical and mental conditions just being visible. Hopefully that will help normalise these conditions in the eyes of the young leading to a kinder and more understanding generation.

[Free Falling Foxes]

2 hours ago, Captain... said:

It's quite interesting watching kids TV these days, cbeebies is full of programmes that promote diversity and inclusivity with children with all kinds of physical and mental conditions just being visible. Hopefully that will help normalise these conditions in the eyes of the young leading to a kinder and more understanding generation.

About 12 years ago, I noticed my then 6 year old grandson using some basic sign language.

It transpired it was being taught to him at school. Whether there was a deaf child in the school I know not, but I thought it was a great idea.

Sadly though, non of my other grandchildren seem to have been exposed to it since.

[Captain...]

29 minutes ago, Free Falling Foxes said:

About 12 years ago, I noticed my then 6 year old grandson using some basic sign language.

It transpired it was being taught to him at school. Whether there was a deaf child in the school I know not, but I thought it was a great idea.

Sadly though, non of my other grandchildren seem to have been exposed to it since.

Mr tumble does lots of signing, at our nursery they also do lots of signing. 

[Zear0]

The missus taught our lad to sign and he was able to communicate with it before he could talk. Highly recommend giving it a go and picking up a baby sign book. 

[tom27111]

6 minutes ago, Zear0 said:

The missus taught our lad to sign and he was able to communicate with it before he could talk. Highly recommend giving it a go and picking up a baby sign book. 

 

Almost like learning a different language and something that could be very useful in life.

 

This is impressive!

 

 

 

 

Edited 16 February 2023 by tom27111

[Jon the Hat]

5 hours ago, LiberalFox said:

Greatly appreciate you putting up those studies @samlcfc

 

I sometimes forget just how clear cut the studies are as to the benefits of transition for those who need it.

 

 

 

 

The problem is that those who need it are a tiny subset of the current population calling themselves trans.  These genuine cases are rare and should be well resourced and supported.  The Tavistock whistleblowing however shows the exact opposite is happening, and the unquestioning affirmation of any child with doubts is an absolute tragedy for many.  Again you have overtly implied I am anti-trans, whereas actually I have a huge amount of sympathy for those cases, and indeed for those like yourself who don't care for the typical gender roles and prefer to express themselves differently.  Good for you, I hope you find that to be beneficial for your happinnes.  

 

Please though don't conflate this with the idea that you can change your sex at all, let alone by filling in a bit of paper, or that filling in that bit of paper should give you the right to override the hard won sex based rights which women have fought for.

Edited 16 February 2023 by Jon the Hat

[leicsmac]

32 minutes ago, Jon the Hat said:

The problem is that those who need it are a tiny subset of the current population calling themselves trans. 

Citation needed for a rather extraordinary claim IMO, otherwise Hitchens Razor applies.

 

33 minutes ago, Jon the Hat said:

The Tavistock whistleblowing however shows the exact opposite is happening, and the unquestioning affirmation of any child with doubts is an absolute tragedy for many. 

The studies by @samlcfc above, as a rule, directly contradict this.

 

34 minutes ago, Jon the Hat said:

The problem is that those who need it are a tiny subset of the current population calling themselves trans.  These genuine cases are rare and should be well resourced and supported.  The Tavistock whistleblowing however shows the exact opposite is happening, and the unquestioning affirmation of any child with doubts is an absolute tragedy for many.  Again you have overtly implied I am anti-trans, whereas actually I have a huge amount of sympathy for those cases, and indeed for those like yourself who don't care for the typical gender roles and prefer to express themselves differently.  Good for you, I hope you find that to be beneficial for your happinnes.  

 

Please though don't conflate this with the idea that you can change your sex at all, let alone by filling in a bit of paper, or that filling in that bit of paper should give you the right to override the hard won sex based rights which women have fought for.

I'm intrigued to know what support is had in mind here if transitioning is somehow off the table.

[Jon the Hat]

8 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

Citation needed for a rather extraordinary claim IMO, otherwise Hitchens Razor applies.

 

The studies by @samlcfc above, as a rule, directly contradict this.

 

I'm intrigued to know what support is had in mind here if transitioning is somehow off the table.

The studies though are based on small samples mostly from a period in which the counselling and mental health assessments which are so badly missing now were in place.  Even the reports coming out of the Tavistock recognize that the Dutch protocol did not ignore other factors.  We also have no ****ing idea whether people who have been treated in the last 5 years or so have better outcomes due to the complete failure to monitor this.

Support should ensure proper assessment of underlying factors before any medical intervention is proposed.  We would clearly see a huge reduction in people identfying as Trans if this were the case.

[Jon the Hat]

I return to the point though that the idea you can change your sex is complete nonsense being sold to these people by a medical / pharmaceutical industry who are making fortunes from it.  In any other circumstance where proper debate and study was permitted without being decried as bigotry which would be a huge red flag.  

[leicsmac]

1 minute ago, Jon the Hat said:

The studies though are based on small samples mostly from a period in which the counselling and mental health assessments which are so badly missing now were in place.  Even the reports coming out of the Tavistock recognize that the Dutch protocol did not ignore other factors.  We also have no ****ing idea whether people who have been treated in the last 5 years or so have better outcomes due to the complete failure to monitor this.

Support should ensure proper assessment of underlying factors before any medical intervention is proposed.  We would clearly see a huge reduction in people identfying as Trans if this were the case.

If you want more recent studies showing exactly the same thing, I would do some digging when I have time. I'd be reasonably sure they exist.

 

Agree with the bolded, but the last sentence is again pure conjecture with no evidence.

 

1 minute ago, Jon the Hat said:

I return to the point though that the idea you can change your sex is complete nonsense being sold to these people by a medical / pharmaceutical industry who are making fortunes from it.  In any other circumstance where proper debate and study was permitted without being decried as bigotry which would be a huge red flag.  

 

15 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

I'm intrigued to know what support is had in mind here if transitioning is somehow off the table.

Still intrigued.

[leicsmac]

6 hours ago, samlcfc said:

I feel so bad for these people. I'm glad they are managing to get their own people in to either validate their concerns, or validate that what they are being told is true with regards to safety.

 

If they do experience health issues, I can't imagine the fight they'd have on their hands to get someone to take responsibility.

The problem with such issues in the US is that often such things come down to who has the best lawyers. And these chemical companies can afford the very best.