Also in the News - Part 2

[Grebfromgrebland]

Tories strategy of culture wars working perfectly here

[Jon the Hat]

6 hours ago, The Doctor said:

So on 1) their fears of trans women are irrational. trans people have been using single sex spaces in line with their identity for decades, have been legally protected in doing so for 13 years, and self ID laws exist in dozens of countries, without any increase in violence.

2) ignoring that that hasn't played out in reality, the same would apply in birth sex segregated spaces, the only difference is whether said predatory man tries to abuse trans women being allowed in women's spaces (which is already the case and hasn't been abused to any significant degree) or pretends to be a trans man. 

 

As for safe spaces for both, there's so many issues with the idea of "trans only" bathrooms and changing rooms (phrased that way might bring back memories of racial segregation?), but primary among them is logistics. There's been talk in recent pages of the financial waste in councils, who is funding and finding room to put these bathrooms in public spaces? Unless you want to go on a multimillion pound spending spree to accommodate less than 0.5% of the population, the end result of this "people should use the spaces associated with their birth sex" is giving trans people the option between exclusion from public life or a constant threat of violent crime against them. 

Yeah bloody irrational women!  Them are their stupid wanting to be safe ideas.

 

On your second point, it absolutely has played out in reality and you denying it just makes you look stupid. Yes the number of cases are relatively low (and now one is claiming otherwise), but dismissing them disempowers women.   We have a number of high-profile cases of convicted sex offenders identifying as women to access womens prisons for a start.  

[Jon the Hat]

38 minutes ago, Grebfromgrebland said:

Tories strategy of culture wars working perfectly here

Again dismissing women as unable to have their own agency without claiming they are victims of manipulation by politicians.  

[leicsmac]

Yeah, this topic has been covered at very great length on here before, I don't really see the need to rehash it.

 

The only thing I'll say is that there is only one "side" of this matter where people are actually being murdered specifically because of it and who they are, and no other reason.

[leicsmac]

3 hours ago, Zear0 said:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-66712589

 

"Ex-Proud Boys leader Enrique Tarrio jailed for 22 years for Capitol riot"

 

Lots of those "political prisoners" popping up now.

 

Still need the ringleader and inspiration, though.

[The Doctor]

5 hours ago, dsr-burnley said:

I have a suspicion you're not recognising my distinction between "safe spaces" and public toilets.  What I have been talking about all along, from my first mention of the JK Rowling v Emma Watson row about safe spaces, is what used to be called women's refuges.  (Perhaps they still are.)  It isn't helpful to tell the women in the refuges that their fears of men or trans women are irrational.  Their fears need to be met, but in a sympathetic manner, not a flat out "this man is actually a trans woman so he/she is sharing your space whether you like it or not".

 

Let me put it very bluntly.  If a woman is frightened of people with penises, then putting a person with a penis into her space and saying "this is a woman" is not the best way to help her. 

Then my response would be to actually listen to what the gender critical movement is saying, because it's not just about rape crisis centres, it's about the complete exclusion of trans people from public life. But also, if a trans woman is trying to access a rape crisis centre it's because she is one of the 50% of trans women who've experienced sexual violence in their lifetime which, honestly makes your "turn them away" position even more abhorrent given we're explicitly talking about a woman in her most vulnerable position.

 

The logistics argument still applies, based off the last census the UK adult population is ~40m, of which 0.1% are trans women, so ~40k adult trans women in the UK. If sexual violence rates match America, ~20k will face sexual violence in their lifetime. As an absolute number that is a tiny amount spread across all 4 countries. Who is funding the operating costs of these centres for trans women, particularly in rural areas where any centre is hard to come by, or are we simply saying to trans women who've experienced sexual violence that their rape/assault doesn't matter?

[The Doctor]

4 hours ago, Jon the Hat said:

Yeah bloody irrational women!  Them are their stupid wanting to be safe ideas.

 

On your second point, it absolutely has played out in reality and you denying it just makes you look stupid. Yes the number of cases are relatively low (and now one is claiming otherwise), but dismissing them disempowers women.   We have a number of high-profile cases of convicted sex offenders identifying as women to access womens prisons for a start.  

It has not played out to any statistically significant degree, and collective guilt of an entire demographic for the actions of one person is very obviously unjust. If someone said no woman should be allowed a driver's license because Myra Hindley had one and drove to abduct murder victims, we'd recognise that as absolutely batshit crazy misogyny, so why then does "no trans woman should be allowed in public spaces because Isla Bryson was and she's a rapist" get treated as a legitimate argument rather than batshit crazy transphobia 

[Daggers]

6 hours ago, ozleicester said:

The only things being revealed are the ignorance of the parents and the genitalia of the baby

Wife went for her first scan when we were living in Colombia. 
 

“Would you like to know what you’re having?” said the person masquerading as a proper qualified doctor. 
 

Then, in very broken English, he pointed to a region of white noise and confusion: “She as, ow you say, a very beautiful c***.”

 

We changed gynaecologist. 

[Lionator]

7 hours ago, Grebfromgrebland said:

Tories strategy of culture wars working perfectly here

Not really, culture wars would probably work if people were generally better off and the country was falling apart. Thankfully the majority don’t really care about gender issues when they’re struggling financially and see blatant corruption on the news everyday. 

[Jon the Hat]

6 hours ago, leicsmac said:

Yeah, this topic has been covered at very great length on here before, I don't really see the need to rehash it.

 

The only thing I'll say is that there is only one "side" of this matter where people are actually being murdered specifically because of it and who they are, and no other reason.

No one is being killed for using womens bathrooms or participating in womens sports unfairly, so to conflate those issues with bigoted violence is tenuous at best.

[leicsmac]

19 minutes ago, Jon the Hat said:

No one is being killed for using womens bathrooms or participating in womens sports unfairly, so to conflate those issues with bigoted violence is tenuous at best.

I'm not the one conflating them or through conflating them considering that the former is an issue of higher priority than the latter. Others are.

 

But the two issues are related from the standpoint that they involve the same demographic of people.

[Alf Bentley]

10 hours ago, Zear0 said:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-66712589

 

"Ex-Proud Boys leader Enrique Tarrio jailed for 22 years for Capitol riot"

 

 

Don't know about this bloke, but some of the Proud Boys jailed now seem to regret their actions.

 

Perhaps they should change their name from The Proud Boys to The Ashamed Boys? 

[Daggers]

39 minutes ago, Jon the Hat said:

No one is being killed for using womens bathrooms or participating in womens sports unfairly, so to conflate those issues with bigoted violence is tenuous at best.

Life isn’t compartmentalised. Things inform other things. You know this. 

[ozleicester]

2 hours ago, Daggers said:

Wife went for her first scan when we were living in Colombia. 
 

“Would you like to know what you’re having?” said the person masquerading as a proper qualified doctor. 
 

Then, in very broken English, he pointed to a region of white noise and confusion: “She as, ow you say, a very beautiful c***.”

 

We changed gynaecologist. 

The only thing that would improve this.... is if the last word is... c.o.c.k.  

Edited 6 September 2023 by ozleicester

[urban.spaceman]

Labour are smashing it at the minute  

 

https://x.com/uklabour/status/1699333134112727258?s=46

[StanSP]

So Gillian Keegan siphoned £1m of the rebuilding schools pot and gave it to her husband's company

 

If only people would do their jobs properly, eh

 

[Captain...]

10 hours ago, dsr-burnley said:

I have a suspicion that if the solution proposed would be to have fewer "safe spaces" on the grounds that men will start to behave better, that wouldn't go down well either.

We should be focussing on the how and why male behaviour makes women and trans woman and trans men and queer men and even a lot cis males feel threatened. We've allowed a society to develop where toxic aggressive masculinity is encouraged and praised. We see it in sport, in business, in entertainment, in politics everywhere we look there are countless examples of aggressive behaviour unchecked. 

 

Work on reducing the threat of men and you never know we might even be able to use the same toilets one day.

[dsr-burnley]

4 hours ago, The Doctor said:

Then my response would be to actually listen to what the gender critical movement is saying, because it's not just about rape crisis centres, it's about the complete exclusion of trans people from public life. But also, if a trans woman is trying to access a rape crisis centre it's because she is one of the 50% of trans women who've experienced sexual violence in their lifetime which, honestly makes your "turn them away" position even more abhorrent given we're explicitly talking about a woman in her most vulnerable position.

 

The logistics argument still applies, based off the last census the UK adult population is ~40m, of which 0.1% are trans women, so ~40k adult trans women in the UK. If sexual violence rates match America, ~20k will face sexual violence in their lifetime. As an absolute number that is a tiny amount spread across all 4 countries. Who is funding the operating costs of these centres for trans women, particularly in rural areas where any centre is hard to come by, or are we simply saying to trans women who've experienced sexual violence that their rape/assault doesn't matter?

I know transgender politics isn't all about rape crisis centres, but that isn't a reason to refuse to talk about rape crisis centres.

 

Women-only refuges are for women, specifically because they are frightened of men.  A trans woman with a penis should be looked after in a different place, because she is one of the people that the current residents are trying to avoid.  In my book it is no more abhorrent that a trans woman should be turned away from one of these places than it would be to turn away a battered husband from these places.  They need help, but not at the expense of the prime reason for these places existing.

 

Trans women who are fully castrated and treated and have a new birth certificate, that's a different matter.  Trans women who still have penises, they are (sexually) men and shouldn't be in refuges for abused women.

[dsr-burnley]

10 minutes ago, Captain... said:

Work on reducing the threat of men and you never know we might even be able to use the same toilets one day.

My friend has a daughter at school and she (and the other girls) won't use the all-inclusive toilets not because of fear, but because the boys are so mucky.

 

Besides, female urinals will never be practical.

[Captain...]

10 hours ago, dsr-burnley said:

I have a suspicion you're not recognising my distinction between "safe spaces" and public toilets.  What I have been talking about all along, from my first mention of the JK Rowling v Emma Watson row about safe spaces, is what used to be called women's refuges.  (Perhaps they still are.)  It isn't helpful to tell the women in the refuges that their fears of men or trans women are irrational.  Their fears need to be met, but in a sympathetic manner, not a flat out "this man is actually a trans woman so he/she is sharing your space whether you like it or not".

 

Let me put it very bluntly.  If a woman is frightened of people with penises, then putting a person with a penis into her space and saying "this is a woman" is not the best way to help her. 

So a trans woman without a penis is fine in these spaces?

 

What about a trans man who has had loads of hormone replacement is jacked on testosterone and got a big old beard, but can't afford willy surgery?

 

Who's going to pay for all these extra bouncers on toilets inspecting the contents of everyone's pants?

 

Yes I'm being flippant, the point is it cannot be about genitals, it cannot be the logistical impossibility of providing toilets and changing rooms to cover all possibilities. The actual practicalities of it quite simple. Women's toilets are all cubicles so unless I've misunderstood how women use them I don't see an issue. I assume the genitals stay covered until they have entered the cubicle and locked the door and they don't enter the toilet block take all their clothes off then find a cubicle.

 

Changing rooms for swimming pools will often have private cubicles for changing in for either a trans person to change in or a women that feels threatened to use, I wouldn't be against legislation saying these need to be more common, it benefits a lot of people outside the trans debate. 

 

Crisis centres are a different matter but never having been to one I assume it is not a big open space and most people's genitals will stay covered, there will be private spaces and understanding of people's feelings.

[ClaphamFox]

23 minutes ago, Captain... said:

We should be focussing on the how and why male behaviour makes women and trans woman and trans men and queer men and even a lot cis males feel threatened. We've allowed a society to develop where toxic aggressive masculinity is encouraged and praised. We see it in sport, in business, in entertainment, in politics everywhere we look there are countless examples of aggressive behaviour unchecked. 

 

Work on reducing the threat of men and you never know we might even be able to use the same toilets one day.

Unfortunately male violence against women has existed forever and in every society the world has ever known, and will likely never be completely eliminated. That doesn't mean that 'work on reducing the threat of men' should not take place (of course it should), but the idea that we can somehow get rid of it through education is fanciful in the extreme. While men and women continue to pose a massively asymmetric risk to one another, there will always be a need for spaces where, for reasons of safety and privacy, men are not allowed - including those who identify as women.

Edited 6 September 2023 by ClaphamFox

[Captain...]

6 minutes ago, dsr-burnley said:

My friend has a daughter at school and she (and the other girls) won't use the all-inclusive toilets not because of fear, but because the boys are so mucky.

 

Besides, female urinals will never be practical.

Again the problem there is males, boys being gross. 

 

Female's can and do use urinals at festivals with a bit of help from a She Pee, we could also go down the French hole in the ground squatters. I can think of many times the queue for the ladies is huge and the gents has no queue and free cubicles. Split it out as sitting and standing rather than male and female, more toilets for women to use and more options when it is busy.

[FoxesDeb]

29 minutes ago, Captain... said:

So a trans woman without a penis is fine in these spaces?

 

What about a trans man who has had loads of hormone replacement is jacked on testosterone and got a big old beard, but can't afford willy surgery?

 

Who's going to pay for all these extra bouncers on toilets inspecting the contents of everyone's pants?

 

Yes I'm being flippant, the point is it cannot be about genitals, it cannot be the logistical impossibility of providing toilets and changing rooms to cover all possibilities. The actual practicalities of it quite simple. Women's toilets are all cubicles so unless I've misunderstood how women use them I don't see an issue. I assume the genitals stay covered until they have entered the cubicle and locked the door and they don't enter the toilet block take all their clothes off then find a cubicle.

 

Changing rooms for swimming pools will often have private cubicles for changing in for either a trans person to change in or a women that feels threatened to use, I wouldn't be against legislation saying these need to be more common, it benefits a lot of people outside the trans debate. 

 

Crisis centres are a different matter but never having been to one I assume it is not a big open space and most people's genitals will stay covered, there will be private spaces and understanding of people's feelings.

The point being made is clearly not about genitals being on show. It's about the very real fear many women have of men and the threat they feel from them. The whole point of safe havens for women is not so they don't have to see men's genitalia, it's so the fear is removed as far as possible by men not being present, at least that's how I understand it.

[RoboFox]

2 hours ago, StanSP said:

So Gillian Keegan siphoned £1m of the rebuilding schools pot and gave it to her husband's company

 

If only people would do their jobs properly, eh

 

Senior Tory in nepotism corruption shocker. 

 

Speaks volumes about their arrogance and contempt for the electorate that they continue to do this despite being caught out time and again. They don't care.

 

Reprehensible scum.

[Brizzle Fox]

2 hours ago, StanSP said:

So Gillian Keegan siphoned £1m of the rebuilding schools pot and gave it to her husband's company

 

If only people would do their jobs properly, eh

 

Seriously though, I think we should thank her for that.....