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Wymsey

Also in the News - Part 2

By Wymsey, in General Chat

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Jon the Hat

Jon the Hat

Posted
Posted
14 hours ago, FoxesDeb said:

The point being made is clearly not about genitals being on show. It's about the very real fear many women have of men and the threat they feel from them. The whole point of safe havens for women is not so they don't have to see men's genitalia, it's so the fear is removed as far as possible by men not being present, at least that's how I understand it.

Indeed, although I think we can agree that seeing penis in the ladies also would not help, and some TRAs think this is fine.

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leicsmac

leicsmac

Posted
Posted (edited)
23 minutes ago, Jon the Hat said:

You keep bringing it up as if that trumps everything else.  Women are killed for being women every hour of every day.  Reducing their protections to protect another vulnerable group is a stupid idea.  Especially if you consider the massively disproportionate scale of the problem.

Well, yes, I am, and I will continue to do so, because:

 

- the demographic (trans folks) that would be less protected by measures being discussed here have not actually killed any women simply because they are women

 

and

 

- the last time I checked, the actual death of some people in one demographic on account of their identity might be considered at least as much a priority as ensuring good mental health protections and environments for another. Death trumps psychological trauma, as bad as that trauma may become.

 

Though I think you have a point here - perhaps if we wanted to actually address this issue properly, instead of focusing on measures that make a vulnerable demographic more vulnerable for the sake of protecting another (whichever direction that might fall in), we could instead focus on neutralising the primary cause of them both being vulnerable and open to harm in the first place, as "unobtainable" or "unrealistic" as that might be.

 

Predatory and bigoted men.

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Jon the Hat

Jon the Hat

Posted
Posted
14 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

Well, yes, I am, and I will continue to do so, because:

 

- the demographic (trans folks) that would be less protected by measures being discussed here have not actually killed any women simply because they are women

 

and

 

- the last time I checked, the actual death of some people in one demographic on account of their identity might be considered at least as much a priority as ensuring good mental health protections and environments for another. Death trumps psychological trauma, as bad as that trauma may become.

 

Though I think you have a point here - perhaps if we wanted to actually address this issue properly, instead of focusing on measures that make a vulnerable demographic more vulnerable for the sake of protecting another (whichever direction that might fall in), we could instead focus on neutralising the primary cause of them both being vulnerable and open to harm in the first place, as "unobtainable" or "unrealistic" as that might be.

 

Predatory and bigoted men.

Of course that would be great, but in the meantime giving men a free reign to invade womens spaces is a terrible terrible idea.  

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leicsmac

leicsmac

Posted
Posted
1 minute ago, Jon the Hat said:

Of course that would be great, but in the meantime giving men a free reign to invade womens spaces is a terrible terrible idea.  

I don't see how marginalising trans women by allowing them "separate but equal" provision because of a few predatory men acting as them (some of whom may be doing it for this exact end) is much better. Restricting an entire demographic for the actions of a few self identified members of it is something that has been frowned upon by history, and rightly so.

 

Of course, there needs to be a solution sought to all of these interconnected issues, but I don't think that's the one. Rather dealing with things on a case by case basis, and perhaps more education and therefore less fear all round.

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Lionator

Lionator

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It’s really weird that the ‘trans’ issue is such a big thing. It’s such a small problem yet absolutely dominates conversation. It should be simple that we create a non hostile environment for trans people (who are often likely to have significant mental health difficulties, I lost a friend to suicide who was transgender) while also empathically acknowledging the worries of some women. 
 

What I find the worst about this argument is how little empathy there is. There is nothing wrong with admitting that there is no right or wrong thing to do in this circumstance and that we should just be a bit kinder to everyone. 

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Facecloth

Facecloth

Posted
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Posted (edited)
25 minutes ago, Lionator said:

It’s really weird that the ‘trans’ issue is such a big thing. It’s such a small problem yet absolutely dominates conversation. It should be simple that we create a non hostile environment for trans people (who are often likely to have significant mental health difficulties, I lost a friend to suicide who was transgender) while also empathically acknowledging the worries of some women. 
 

What I find the worst about this argument is how little empathy there is. There is nothing wrong with admitting that there is no right or wrong thing to do in this circumstance and that we should just be a bit kinder to everyone. 

I agree, and I find myself a little disappointed by posters who's opinions I generally respect just brushing off the concerns of women as though they are secondary. There needs to be an answer that doesn't impinge in the rights of others or dismiss peoples concerns. Even irrational fears are legitimate. My girlfriends scared of spiders, I might chuckle when she screams at the sight of one, but I still deal with it for her and understand she's genuinely scared. I don't want anyone, man, woman, trans person whoever to feel left out or scared, especially in places they should feel the most safe and comfortable.

Edited by Facecloth
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RobHawk

RobHawk

Posted
Posted
25 minutes ago, Lionator said:

It’s really weird that the ‘trans’ issue is such a big thing. It’s such a small problem yet absolutely dominates conversation. It should be simple that we create a non hostile environment for trans people (who are often likely to have significant mental health difficulties, I lost a friend to suicide who was transgender) while also empathically acknowledging the worries of some women. 
 

What I find the worst about this argument is how little empathy there is. There is nothing wrong with admitting that there is no right or wrong thing to do in this circumstance and that we should just be a bit kinder to everyone. 

This nails it for me! 

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Dunge

Dunge

Posted
Posted
11 minutes ago, Lionator said:

It’s really weird that the ‘trans’ issue is such a big thing. It’s such a small problem yet absolutely dominates conversation. It should be simple that we create a non hostile environment for trans people (who are often likely to have significant mental health difficulties, I lost a friend to suicide who was transgender) while also empathically acknowledging the worries of some women. 
 

What I find the worst about this argument is how little empathy there is. There is nothing wrong with admitting that there is no right or wrong thing to do in this circumstance and that we should just be a bit kinder to everyone. 

As a percentage of people it’s a small thing but there are sizeable impacts. Whether there is offence attached to words like “he”, “she”, “woman” or “mother” is significant. The decisions on where trans people fit into competitive sport will likely last a generation or longer. I think people did kind of ignore it for years (and yes, laugh at it too), but now it’s centre stage and society is being forced to determine where to/if they should draw the line on various aspects of the debate. Activists on both sides are responsible for that.

 

I’ve been listening to the debate, on here and elsewhere, trying to work out where the lines should be drawn. I still don’t really know although I’ve heard some arguments that I think are stronger than others.

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leicsmac

leicsmac

Posted
Posted
15 minutes ago, Facecloth said:

I agree, and I find myself a little disappointed by posters who's opinions I generally respect just brushing off the concerns of women as though they are secondary. There needs to be an answer that doesn't impinge in the rights of others or dismiss peoples concerns. Even irrational fears are legitimate. My girlfriends scared of spiders, I might chuckle when she screams at the sight of one, but I still deal with it for her and understand she's genuinely scared. I don't want anyone, man, woman, trans person whoever to feel left out or scared, especially in places they should feel the most safe and comfortable.

TBH I think you may count me in that category and I hear that.

 

I'll freely admit my own viewpoint on the matter is skewed because I have seen, very directly, the consequences of discrimination and flat out bigoted violence against trans people - and the damage it has done to people I care for deeply and whom simply want to be left alone and treated with a modicum of societal respect.

 

You are absolutely right in that there is a solution out there that can provide necessary comfort and protection to two demographics, rather than it being one or the other. We just need to find it.

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Lionator

Lionator

Posted
Posted
37 minutes ago, Dunge said:

As a percentage of people it’s a small thing but there are sizeable impacts. Whether there is offence attached to words like “he”, “she”, “woman” or “mother” is significant. The decisions on where trans people fit into competitive sport will likely last a generation or longer. I think people did kind of ignore it for years (and yes, laugh at it too), but now it’s centre stage and society is being forced to determine where to/if they should draw the line on various aspects of the debate. Activists on both sides are responsible for that.

 

I’ve been listening to the debate, on here and elsewhere, trying to work out where the lines should be drawn. I still don’t really know although I’ve heard some arguments that I think are stronger than others.

This is a completely different issue imo as there’s obviously advantages/disadvantages. 
 

With regard to your second paragraph, there lies the problem. We’re constantly looking for a place to draw a line when right now there is no right place to draw that line. And it’s ok for us to admit that, this is a very complex issue. While we figure out a way as society further evolves, we just need to be more respectful of one an other. 

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Dunge

Dunge

Posted
Posted
11 minutes ago, Lionator said:

This is a completely different issue imo as there’s obviously advantages/disadvantages. 
 

With regard to your second paragraph, there lies the problem. We’re constantly looking for a place to draw a line when right now there is no right place to draw that line. And it’s ok for us to admit that, this is a very complex issue. While we figure out a way as society further evolves, we just need to be more respectful of one an other. 

I have to say, with some of the issues like “guidance for teachers”, I more and more come to the conclusion that it needs to be done on a case-by-case basis and that issuing one set of rules that have to be adhered to is the wrong approach.

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marbles

marbles

Posted
Posted
3 hours ago, Facecloth said:

I agree, and I find myself a little disappointed by posters who's opinions I generally respect just brushing off the concerns of women as though they are secondary. There needs to be an answer that doesn't impinge in the rights of others or dismiss peoples concerns. Even irrational fears are legitimate. My girlfriends scared of spiders, I might chuckle when she screams at the sight of one, but I still deal with it for her and understand she's genuinely scared. I don't want anyone, man, woman, trans person whoever to feel left out or scared, especially in places they should feel the most safe and comfortable.

It’s hypocritical.

The same posters who brush off womens opinions/rights when it comes to trans issues - are the same who champion womens opinions/rights when it comes to abortion issues.


Pick an opinion and stay consistent.

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Dunge

Dunge

Posted
Posted (edited)
32 minutes ago, marbles said:

It’s hypocritical.

The same posters who brush off womens opinions/rights when it comes to trans issues - are the same who champion womens opinions/rights when it comes to abortion issues.


Pick an opinion and stay consistent.

Not entirely. On trans issues I consider myself as listening to all opinions. On abortion issues I’ve long since concluded that I’m pro choice.

 

ie If you think these are the same teams then you’re wrong.

Edited by Dunge
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marbles

marbles

Posted
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15 minutes ago, Dunge said:

Not entirely. On trans issues I consider myself as listening to all opinions. On abortion issues I’ve long since concluded that I’m pro choice.

 

ie If you think these are the same teams then you’re wrong.

Sort of, but not really the point I was getting at.

I had to hear “nothing is more important than the rights of women.  We must protect women!”………well, now those same people are saying something different.

 

 

 

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Grebfromgrebland

Grebfromgrebland

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Can we please stop talking about the trans issue. It's been manufactured by the Tory party and right wing media to cause arguments among the population and distract from far more important and relevant issues.

 

It's divide and rule.

 

Sad thing is that it's working like a treat on this forum.

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