Also in the News - Part 2

[Zear0]

5 minutes ago, MPH said:

 

there’s videos of whole classrooms of school girls being kidnapped with voices telling them they are going to be sold as sex slaves. These are 10-14 year olds. 
 

its awful.

 

 

 

I also have a problem, on a humanitarian level and for reasons mentioned in my previous post, with Israel cutting off the electricity supply to the Palestinian areas. Also, there is talk of the tax money Israel collects and hands over to the Palestinian authorities being used as reparations for the killed Israelis  and to pay for the damage caused by the rocket attacks.

 

I understand the arguments of ‘ why give them power for them to then use it against us’ but  well..  but support for the rocket attacks is not a universally held Palestinian opinion..

 

 

the part that saddens me most about it all is that I don’t know of a solution that will suit both sides.

Your last point is where I've been at for a while with all this. The dream is a peaceful two-state solution which I, sadly, can never see happening. Severe conflict is inevitable and, given one side is significantly better equipped, how it's not escalated more severely sooner is some diplomatic achievement despite the appalling behaviour of both sides. 

 

I guess the above was said about N. Ireland for generations so there's a small hope. 

[foxile5]

26 minutes ago, MPH said:

 

there’s videos of whole classrooms of school girls being kidnapped with voices telling them they are going to be sold as sex slaves. These are 10-14 year olds. 
 

its awful.

 

 

 

I also have a problem, on a humanitarian level and for reasons mentioned in my previous post, with Israel cutting off the electricity supply to the Palestinian areas. Also, there is talk of the tax money Israel collects and hands over to the Palestinian authorities being used as reparations for the killed Israelis  and to pay for the damage caused by the rocket attacks.

 

I understand the arguments of ‘ why give them power for them to then use it against us’ but  well..  but support for the rocket attacks is not a universally held Palestinian opinion..

 

 

the part that saddens me most about it all is that I don’t know of a solution that will suit both sides.

The solution, as difficult as it is to accept, is going to play out shortly it looks like. A truly awful conflict that results in thousands displaced or dead.

[MPH]

13 minutes ago, foxile5 said:

The solution, as difficult as it is to accept, is going to play out shortly it looks like. A truly awful conflict that results in thousands displaced or dead.

 

I agree that this is the inevitable next step.

 

but where next after that? 
 

 

just deeper hatred and distrust on both sides.

 

Hamas may feel like they have just scored a valuable point and in many ways they have… but they will soon cry foul  when Israel tighten the borders and limit movement even more.

 

I just don’t like any of it. It’s all horrible. I hate all of it.

[foxile5]

18 minutes ago, MPH said:

 

I agree that this is the inevitable next step.

 

but where next after that? 
 

 

just deeper hatred and distrust on both sides.

 

Hamas may feel like they have just scored a valuable point and in many ways they have… but they will soon cry foul  when Israel tighten the borders and limit movement even more.

 

I just don’t like any of it. It’s all horrible. I hate all of it.

It's hard to predict given the longevity of this conflict. In many ways I don't think either side has the capacity to end it in any way anymore. Too much foul air.

 

The only end I can see is extermination of one group or the other and the horror that would have to be effected is almost too much to think about 

 

I hate it too MPH. It's ghastly.

[Lionator]

7 hours ago, MPH said:

 

I agree that this is the inevitable next step.

 

but where next after that? 
 

 

just deeper hatred and distrust on both sides.

 

Hamas may feel like they have just scored a valuable point and in many ways they have… but they will soon cry foul  when Israel tighten the borders and limit movement even more.

 

I just don’t like any of it. It’s all horrible. I hate all of it.

Will it even be a conflict or will Israel just destroy and occupy Gaza? We’ve literally just seen ethnic cleansing against Armenians and everybody turned a blind eye. Now Israel will do the same, which will radicalise a whole new group of Palestians which will keep Hamas going. Just idiots everywhere. 

[leicsmac]

Yeah, as others have mentioned, there's really only one of two ways this ends. Either with the complete extermination or subjugation of one side or the other, or the bigger powers that be actually show a modicum of responsibility, stop picking sides and use their strength to get the two sides to make peace, and enforce it. While dealing with the ideological differences that drive the thing in the first place.

 

Of course, the status quo leading to the former is much easier for the big boys than the latter, and therefore more likely.

 

[Torquay Gunner]

55 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

Yeah, as others have mentioned, there's really only one of two ways this ends. Either with the complete extermination or subjugation of one side or the other, or the bigger powers that be actually show a modicum of responsibility, stop picking sides and use their strength to get the two sides to make peace, and enforce it. While dealing with the ideological differences that drive the thing in the first place.

 

Of course, the status quo leading to the former is much easier for the big boys than the latter, and therefore more likely.

 

There has been subjugation of one side over the other since 1948, hence this bloody mess.  There is no end in sight and will sadly continue, as there is no world wide political will to stop it, how many UN resolutions have Israel ignored?

[leicsmac]

19 minutes ago, Torquay Gunner said:

There has been subjugation of one side over the other since 1948, hence this bloody mess.  There is no end in sight and will sadly continue, as there is no world wide political will to stop it, how many UN resolutions have Israel ignored?

Sadly so. As above, it is a massive failure of the UN Security Council that they cannot or will not prevent this kind of thing from happening.

 

NB. Just for clarity,  by "complete subjugation" I'm thinking where one side or the other has complete control, and the other side cannot fight at all and are functionally enslaved. That's clearly not the case here at the present time.

 

 

Edited 8 October 2023 by leicsmac

[Nalis]

11 hours ago, Zear0 said:

Your last point is where I've been at for a while with all this. The dream is a peaceful two-state solution which I, sadly, can never see happening. Severe conflict is inevitable and, given one side is significantly better equipped, how it's not escalated more severely sooner is some diplomatic achievement despite the appalling behaviour of both sides. 

 

I guess the above was said about N. Ireland for generations so there's a small hope. 

Problem about the Norn Iron situation is that right now its the best you are going to get because, similar to Israel/Palestine, both sides will never agree on the same outcome in terms of being part of the UK or part of Ireland. If there's a united Ireland we'd be back to a civil war as theres no way unionists would stand for it.

 

There are more 'peace walls' dividing communities now than there was during The Troubles, and most communities are in favour of them as a neccessary evil.

[SpacedX]

I expect that the death toll will increase in Western Afghanistan and possible aftershocks. Some of the buildings in Herat are very old and similar to the Berber villages in the Atlas Mountains that were devastated last month, consist of mud and clay housing. 

[MPH]

Here is my concern.

 

Netanyahu has gone on tv telling those living in the City of Gaza to leave as they are coming for Hamas.

 

 

I believe that he will use this as validation to target every Male living in the area. Which would be nothing short genocide imho.

 

Bit from an Israeli point of view  they will feel justified due to those men not leaving the area and the fact that Hamza fighters will try and blend back in to society.

 

 

I mean, what did Hamas THINK the response would be?  How did they think a strong  well equipped military nation would respond?

 

 

it’s the ordinary citizens on both sides of the equation  that will suffer. I don’t give a flying monkey’s about  either sides military- let them duke it out. It’s the citizens I feel sorry for.

 

 

 

[st albans fox]

1 hour ago, MPH said:

Here is my concern.

 

Netanyahu has gone on tv telling those living in the City of Gaza to leave as they are coming for Hamas.

 

 

I believe that he will use this as validation to target every Male living in the area. Which would be nothing short genocide imho.

 

Bit from an Israeli point of view  they will feel justified due to those men not leaving the area and the fact that Hamza fighters will try and blend back in to society.

 

 

I mean, what did Hamas THINK the response would be?  How did they think a strong  well equipped military nation would respond?

 

 

it’s the ordinary citizens on both sides of the equation  that will suffer. I don’t give a flying monkey’s about  either sides military- let them duke it out. It’s the citizens I feel sorry for.

 

 

 

Hamas are completely invested in chaos, aggression and fighting. They have no interest in any peace.  They are Iran’s mouthpiece in the southwest  of Israel (Gaza) whilst hezbollah do that job to the north. (Lebanon)

it seems likely that this is all to do with the potential normalisation of relations agreement between Israel and Saudi that would have seen US arms heading into Saudi ( Iran wont like that).  This agreement is likely to be in tatters once the next few days are done. 

[Unabomber]

Can someone please explain to me what is going on with this conflict as if talking to a child? I really don’t know what’s happening but it seems worrying.

[leicsmac]

7 minutes ago, Unabomber said:

Can someone please explain to me what is going on with this conflict as if talking to a child? I really don’t know what’s happening but it seems worrying.

British and French politicians agree to divide the area into separate spheres of influence for themselves a century ago, in what a lot of the Palestinian Arabs saw as a betrayal.

 

In 1948(?) British, French and American powers agree for the creation of a new "Jewish" state under the powers of that previous agreement in the same area. A lot of the Arabic population again saw this as a betrayal, despite the obvious need for such a state to be established after the horror of the Holocaust.

 

Since then, a combination of both parties wanting the entire region for themselves (geopolitics) and historical fvckery based on religious ideology have made it so that enough people on the two sides loathe each other that things like this happen, and keep happening.

[FoxesDeb]

10 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

British and French politicians agree to divide the area into separate spheres of influence for themselves a century ago, in what a lot of the Palestinian Arabs saw as a betrayal.

 

In 1948(?) British, French and American powers agree for the creation of a new "Jewish" state under the powers of that previous agreement in the same area. A lot of the Arabic population again saw this as a betrayal, despite the obvious need for such a state to be established after the horror of the Holocaust.

 

Since then, a combination of both parties wanting the entire region for themselves (geopolitics) and historical fvckery based on religious ideology have made it so that enough people on the two sides loathe each other that things like this happen, and keep happening.

Weren't hundreds of thousands of them displaced from their homes when Israel was created?

[leicsmac]

2 minutes ago, FoxesDeb said:

Weren't hundreds of thousands of them displaced from their homes when Israel was created?

Around 725,000, according to UN figures. So they certainly had and have a case regarding the betrayal.

[FoxesDeb]

5 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

Around 725,000, according to UN figures. So they certainly had and have a case regarding the betrayal.

So the western world came along and told three quarters of a million Arab people to either move, or be moved? I'm ready to be educated but how can that be right?

[leicsmac]

6 minutes ago, FoxesDeb said:

So the western world came along and told three quarters of a million Arab people to either move, or be moved? I'm ready to be educated but how can that be right?

One word. A filthy one.

 

Realpolitik.

 

Edit: to expand on this, the big powers simply did it because it suited them geopolitically to do so. What's "right" for them was (and is) what they say it is.

 

And if you think that's disgusting, then you'd be absolutely right.

Edited 8 October 2023 by leicsmac

[FoxesDeb]

1 minute ago, leicsmac said:

One word. A filthy one.

 

Realpolitik.

So at the risk of sounding completely naive, why are we on Israel's side? Morally aren't the Palestinian's right to be aggrieved, albeit going about it in an unacceptable manner? 

[leicsmac]

2 minutes ago, FoxesDeb said:

So at the risk of sounding completely naive, why are we on Israel's side? Morally aren't the Palestinian's right to be aggrieved, albeit going about it in an unacceptable manner? 

Because Cold War bullshit meant we had to pick a side, and seeing as the Americans and other "Western" powers picked that side, so the UK had to too. Apparently.

 

Morality has zero place in high level geopolitics. And again, if you think that's disgusting and indicative of humans being the worst of themselves, you'd be right.

[fox_up_north]

I'd be careful picking "sides" in this. It's important to remember that a number of innocent people have been killed, brutally and some absolutely despicable things have happened to either the dead or the living.

[jonathan_ross]

42 minutes ago, FoxesDeb said:

Weren't hundreds of thousands of them displaced from their homes when Israel was created?

In much the same fashion the jews were by the romans in all their settlements of the holy land centuries prior to this.

[leicsmac]

6 minutes ago, jonathan_ross said:

In much the same fashion the jews were by the romans in all their settlements of the holy land centuries prior to this.

Yes.

 

Shows that despite all of our advances in other areas, we as a species seem to repeat atrocities again and again in this matter.

[jonathan_ross]

6 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

Yes.

 

Shows that despite all of our advances in other areas, we as a species seem to repeat atrocities again and again in this matter.

Whatever atrocities Israel are committing in retaliation to Gaza after this latest series of attacks I doubt they will involve breaking into homes murdering children in front of their mothers.

 

 

Edited 8 October 2023 by jonathan_ross

[leicsmac]

Just now, jonathan_ross said:

What ever atrocities Israel are committing in retaliation to Gaza after this latest series of attacks I doubt they will be breaking into homes murdering children in front of their mothers.

I doubt it too, but IMO dead is dead and anger at that death is what it is, regardless of whether it's that or an Israeli guided missile hitting a civilian area for whatever reason.

 

There should be a distinction between intent and deed, but at the same time I can understand someone who has just witnessed the violent death of a loved one wouldn't see it that way.