Also in the News - Part 2

[st albans fox]

I’m reading stuff about non Israelis being abducted and taken into Gaza. That will complicate the ground response. I’d imagine that there are currently heavy negotiations behind the scenes between countries like Qatar as an intermediary and Hamas to get these people released.  There will also be pressure to release women and children although I expect Hamas will point out that Israeli women serve two years in the military. 
 

hamas will also make a judgment that holding foreign nationals hostage may well mean that any ground offensive is delayed which will enable more of their people to escape via tunnels into Egypt. 

[leicsmac]

6 hours ago, Jon the Hat said:

It is quite possible and reasonable to condemn the horrific attacks by Hamas terrorists while also recognising that part of what enables Hamas to maintain power and carry out such attacks is Israeli treatment of Palestinian people and their rights.  We can also recognise the improving relationship between Saudi Arabia and Israel is a threat to Hamas.  And worry about the affects of the Israeli response on innocent Palestian civilians.

This.

 

And also expect better in terms of actually doing something to unfvck this terrible problem from both the two leaderships involved and the other global powers.

[StanSP]

The first one below might sound like the dumbest question as I'm not totally clued up on the full background/context of Israel/Palestine, so need to educate myself/be educated. 

 

What's the difference between this conflict, and Ukraine fighting back against Russia when it comes to protecting/keeping land they purportedly own? Linked to that, why are Palestinians called terrorists, but Ukraine army fighting back isn't? 

How come our government heavily backs Israel? 

[st albans fox]

18 minutes ago, Mickyblueeyes said:

Is like someone has said above. Having sympathy for the Palestinian people is not having sympathy for Hamas - most whose leaders do not live in the Gaza Strip. 
 

It’s exactly the same situation. Understanding the need for a Jewish homeland and their right to exists peacefully doesn’t mean you have to absolve the murderous IDF.

 

The reality is, the majority of victims of this conflict on both sides are going to be innocent, men, women and children. Comments like “flatten the strip” are sick and demented. Just like those who celebrated the killing and parading of innocent festival goers. Rape, mutilation and mass murder has been an accusation on BOTH Hamas and the IDF since 1948. Their exist no rules of combat on either side in this region.

 

The place this “war” should be fought is between Iran and Israel. That’s where the funding comes from. Dropping illegal poisonous white phosphorus bombs on residential blocks in the Gaza Strip is only going to add to the innocent kill count - destroy Hamas ? Unlikely. 

I’m uncomfortable with the equivalence you are placing on the IDF and what Hamas ‘fighters’ did on Saturday.  

 

Most of what occurred on Saturday was pure terrorism on a scale which we haven’t seen perhaps since 9/11 - it needs to be called out as such and not dealt with via ‘whataboutary’

[leicsmac]

2 minutes ago, StanSP said:

The first one below might sound like the dumbest question as I'm not totally clued up on the full background/context of Israel/Palestine, so need to educate myself/be educated. 

 

What's the difference between this conflict, and Ukraine fighting back against Russia when it comes to protecting/keeping land they purportedly own? Linked to that, why are Palestinians called terrorists, but Ukraine army fighting back isn't? 

How come our government heavily backs Israel? 

That's really complicated tbh, but sadly a lot of it comes down to simple current and historical geopolitics and being made to "pick a side".

 

1 minute ago, st albans fox said:

I’m uncomfortable with the equivalence you are placing on the IDF and what Hamas ‘fighters’ did on Saturday.  

 

Most of what occurred on Saturday was pure terrorism on a scale which we haven’t seen perhaps since 9/11 - it needs to be called out as such and not dealt with via ‘whataboutary’

A rational head can see at least something of a difference between intent and deed in terms of the two, yeah.

 

At the same time, dead is dead and it might be a bit much to expect such rationality from someone who has just lost a loved one to a violent death, no matter the circumstances of it and how "intentional" it was (to say nothing of the possibility of dressing up deliberate reprisals as "whoops, slightly off course missile there").

[Mickyblueeyes]

2 minutes ago, st albans fox said:

I’m uncomfortable with the equivalence you are placing on the IDF and what Hamas ‘fighters’ did on Saturday.  

 

Most of what occurred on Saturday was pure terrorism on a scale which we haven’t seen perhaps since 9/11 - it needs to be called out as such and not dealt with via ‘whataboutary’

I’m going to be very frank. Your uncomfortableness is a you problem.

 

What Hamas did on Saturday was murder. Terrorism. I can comfortably call them out for what they are. Murderous terrorist who have not in anyway benefitted the Palestinian cause.

 

I can also call out the IDF for what they are. An army which has consistently committed war crimes which include, targeting civilian buildings, using banned substances and/or weapons, murdering innocent people, abuse of innocents, torture, in some cases rape, false imprisonment and it goes on. 
 

If you are finding it uncomfortable, you need to stop correlating. To make easier, Hamas - bad. IDF - for different reasons, bad too. No good guys here.

[Mickyblueeyes]

9 minutes ago, StanSP said:

The first one below might sound like the dumbest question as I'm not totally clued up on the full background/context of Israel/Palestine, so need to educate myself/be educated. 

 

What's the difference between this conflict, and Ukraine fighting back against Russia when it comes to protecting/keeping land they purportedly own? Linked to that, why are Palestinians called terrorists, but Ukraine army fighting back isn't? 

How come our government heavily backs Israel? 

Israel is one of our biggest allies. Lot of trade deals. It’s business basically. 

[Daggers]

2 hours ago, Jon the Hat said:

Ah this is a whole different level.  Not sure anyone has any answers.  Its bloody depressing.

Dear John,

 

Let me introduce you to the Internet social media platforms, where 128 characters are sufficient to detail comprehensive plans and everyone can pretend to hold a PhD…

[leicsmac]

2 minutes ago, Daggers said:

Dear John,

 

Let me introduce you to the Internet social media platforms, where 128 characters are sufficient to detail comprehensive plans and everyone can pretend to hold a PhD…

... and sometimes political policy is then specifically written with those people and those platforms in mind.

 

It's a brave new world.

[SpacedX]

5 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

... and sometimes political policy is then specifically written with those people and those platforms in mind.

 

Scary, but true.

[Daggers]

We don’t need no stinking experts

[Jon the Hat]

2 minutes ago, Daggers said:

We don’t need no stinking experts

Who got us here if not the experts?  

[Happy Fox]

https://carnegieendowment.org/sada/89215#:~:text=By building settlements and outposts,by limiting its urban development.

[st albans fox]

Golders Green this morning - a few idiots no doubt but it only takes a few idiots to make people uneasy and scared. 

 

[Trav Le Bleu]

41 minutes ago, Daggers said:

We don’t need no stinking experts

Hey! Teacher, leave those kid alone!

[Trav Le Bleu]

1 hour ago, StanSP said:

The first one below might sound like the dumbest question as I'm not totally clued up on the full background/context of Israel/Palestine, so need to educate myself/be educated. 

 

What's the difference between this conflict, and Ukraine fighting back against Russia when it comes to protecting/keeping land they purportedly own? Linked to that, why are Palestinians called terrorists, but Ukraine army fighting back isn't? 

How come our government heavily backs Israel? 

As has been said, it's complicated.

 

Is it because of UN resolution 181 which saw the founding of an Israeli state governing itself for the first time in 2000 years?

 

Is if because of the Balfour Declaration made by GB in WW1, saying the would give that small part of empire back to the Jews as a homeland, to gain their support in the on going war?

 

Is it the enmity between Arabs and Jews that goes back to Biblical times? The offspring of Ishmael and Isaac?

 

It is all of these things and more besides. Probably the longest ongoing conflict in human history.

[String fellow]

The above article talks about a two-state solution to the on-going conflict. This isn't what Hamas want - they want Israel destroyed and so do their backers in Tehran. Like everyone else, I don't know the answer, but murdering 250+ civilians at a music festival seems utterly pointless both from a strategic and propaganda point of view.    

[ClaphamFox]

21 minutes ago, String fellow said:

The above article talks about a two-state solution to the on-going conflict. This isn't what Hamas want - they want Israel destroyed and so do their backers in Tehran. Like everyone else, I don't know the answer, but murdering 250+ civilians at a music festival seems utterly pointless both from a strategic and propaganda point of view.    

Hamas is a Muslim supremacist terrorist organisation dedicated to achieving racial and religious purity in the Middle East. It is no surprise whatsoever to find the attack on Israel being celebrated by white supremacists in the US - they share many of the same beliefs and aspirations. I notice Sinn Fein have also come out to express their solidarity with Hamas.

 

It's difficult to think of any other situation in which some left-wing commentators would respond to the brutal rape and murder of civilians, including children, by equivocating, blaming 'all sides' and refusing to condemn those committing the rapes and murders. But this is Israel and these are Jewish people, so I guess the rules are different. 

Edited 9 October 2023 by ClaphamFox

[Daggers]

34 minutes ago, Trav Le Bleu said:

Hey! Teacher, leave those kid alone!

The last thing they said before I had my teaching registration cancelled. 

[leicsmac]

13 minutes ago, String fellow said:

The above article talks about a two-state solution to the on-going conflict. This isn't what Hamas want - they want Israel destroyed and so do their backers in Tehran. Like everyone else, I don't know the answer, but murdering 250+ civilians at a music festival seems utterly pointless both from a strategic and propaganda point of view.    

And it isn't what the Israeli hardliners and their backers in the US want, either.

 

And sadly, it appears to be the psychopaths in charge right now, both ways.

[leicsmac]

8 minutes ago, ClaphamFox said:

Hamas is a Muslim supremacist terrorist organisation dedicated to achieving racial and religious purity in the Middle East. It is no surprise whatsoever to find the attack on Israel being celebrated by white supremacists in the US - they share many of the same beliefs and aspirations. I notice Sinn Fein have also come out to express their solidarity with Hamas.

 

It's difficult to think of any other situation in which some left-wing commentators would respond to the brutal rape and murder of civilians, including children, by equivocating, blaming 'all sides' and refusing to condemn those committing the rapes and murders. But this is Israel and these are Jewish people, so I guess the rules are different. 

Has anyone here actually done that?

[ClaphamFox]

1 minute ago, leicsmac said:

Has anyone here actually done that?

I wasn't talking about anybody on here. 

[leicsmac]

3 minutes ago, ClaphamFox said:

I wasn't talking about anybody on here. 

Fair enough. I've no doubt that some talking heads out there are doing exactly that.

 

But, as folks on here have pointed out, the historical context here is really complex and the whole situation is frustrating, sad and difficult to solve (though again I think everyone with power involved could actually act more like sensible adults and therefore make things easier there).

[Trav Le Bleu]

14 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

And it isn't what the Israeli hardliners and their backers in the US want, either.

 

And sadly, it appears to be the psychopaths in charge right now, both ways.

Sometimes Israel seems like the weedy kid at school who inexplicably has the protection of the school bully. I do wonder just exactly provocative Israel would be without US support.

 

Don't know how much basis in fact there is in this, but don't certain Christian elements in the US (where such things still carry much weight) believe that the 2nd coming of Christ will literally be in geographic Israel and therefore the state of Israel must be supported?

 

None of which excuses Hamas.

 

I honestly don't understand war; when has it ever made anything better?

 

 

[leicsmac]

2 minutes ago, Trav Le Bleu said:

Sometimes Israel seems like the weedy kid at school who inexplicably has the protection of the school bully. I do wonder just exactly provocative Israel would be without US support.

 

Don't know how much basis in fact there is in this, but don't certain Christian elements in the US (where such things still carry much weight) believe that the 2nd coming of Christ will literally be in geographic Israel and therefore the state of Israel must be supported?

 

None of which excuses Hamas.

 

I honestly don't understand war; when has it ever made anything better?

 

 

Yeah, the fundie element in the US tend to back Israel for the exact reason you state. Of course, you then have other fundies and nutters there who abhor them because anti-Semitism.

 

As for war, for me it's an insane waste of lives and resources that very, very occasionally, is the only option to prevent even greater death and suffering.