Also in the News - Part 2

[ClaphamFox]

1 minute ago, leicsmac said:

Fair enough. I've no doubt that some talking heads out there are doing exactly that.

 

But, as folks on here have pointed out, the historical context here is really complex and the whole situation is frustrating, sad and difficult to solve (though again I think everyone with power involved could actually act more like sensible adults and therefore make things easier there).

All of this is true. But the violence undertaken by Hamas in recent days has been on a level that anybody with an ounce of humanity should be able to condemn utterly, without equivocation. Yet there are plenty on the left who are seemingly unable to do this, including Jeremy Corbyn and Scottish First Minister Humza Yousaf. There seems to be this view among some that while violence inflicted upon Jewish people should not be condoned, it cannot be unambiguously condemned without providing 'context' which somehow explains or excuses the aggression. It's no surprise from Corbyn, btw - he allowed virulent antisemitism to flourish in the Labour Party under his watch and has in the past referred to Hamas as his 'friends'. 

[RowlattsFox]

Simplistic view I know but I think half of the worlds problems would disappear if people just grew the **** up  

 

 

[leicsmac]

6 minutes ago, ClaphamFox said:

All of this is true. But the violence undertaken by Hamas in recent days has been on a level that anybody with an ounce of humanity should be able to condemn utterly, without equivocation. Yet there are plenty on the left who are seemingly unable to do this, including Jeremy Corbyn and Scottish First Minister Humza Yousaf. There seems to be this view among some that while violence inflicted upon Jewish people should not be condoned, it cannot be unambiguously condemned without providing 'context' which somehow explains or excuses the aggression. It's no surprise from Corbyn, btw - he allowed virulent antisemitism to flourish in the Labour Party under his watch and has in the past referred to Hamas as his 'friends'. 

For me that's just viewing something like this as more than a simple black/ white, good guy/bad guy dichotomy (which it obviously is), but I can see the point being made here.

[Zear0]

19 minutes ago, ClaphamFox said:

All of this is true. But the violence undertaken by Hamas in recent days has been on a level that anybody with an ounce of humanity should be able to condemn utterly, without equivocation. Yet there are plenty on the left who are seemingly unable to do this, including Jeremy Corbyn and Scottish First Minister Humza Yousaf. There seems to be this view among some that while violence inflicted upon Jewish people should not be condoned, it cannot be unambiguously condemned without providing 'context' which somehow explains or excuses the aggression. It's no surprise from Corbyn, btw - he allowed virulent antisemitism to flourish in the Labour Party under his watch and has in the past referred to Hamas as his 'friends'. 

It's victim blaming in it's simplist form.

[Foxdiamond]

In the past trying to make sense of this historical conflict is so depressing I think you can be forgiven for putting it out of your mind. It appears that over the years moderate views have been suppressed or even brutally killed. 

[Alf Bentley]

2 hours ago, Daggers said:

We don’t need no stinking experts

 

But do you need any stinking badges?

 

 

[leicsmac]

4 minutes ago, Foxdiamond said:

In the past trying to make sense of this historical conflict is so depressing I think you can be forgiven for putting it out of your mind. It appears that over the years moderate views have been suppressed or even brutally killed. 

Depressing is exactly the right word.

[Finnegan]

3 hours ago, StanSP said:

The first one below might sound like the dumbest question as I'm not totally clued up on the full background/context of Israel/Palestine, so need to educate myself/be educated. 

 

What's the difference between this conflict, and Ukraine fighting back against Russia when it comes to protecting/keeping land they purportedly own? Linked to that, why are Palestinians called terrorists, but Ukraine army fighting back isn't? 

How come our government heavily backs Israel? 

 

I mean it definitely helps that Ukrainian soldiers didn't cross the border to shoot up 300 kids at a music festival. 

 

The Israeli state is one of the more nefarious regimes on the planet, the Israeli government's treatment of Palestinians and it's handling of the Palestine situation is vile. No question. 

 

But what Hamas have done in response is thoroughly grotesque. A lot of the western world is generally fairly sympathetic to Palestine, I do think people who are pro democracy, pro individual freedoms et all want to typically lean the way of supporting the Palestinian people and their right to self governance. 

 

But Hamas itself is a fundamentalist Islamic terror organisation with some pretty awful beliefs and practices that routinely responds to Israeli aggression by being equally awful back. 

 

There aren't really any good guys with guns down there on either side and any comparison to Ukraine's defence forces is extremely unfair to be honest. 

 

Edit to say: What is a fairly tragic reflection of the modern world is that Hamas are the closest thing Palestine has to "good guys" though. The fact nobody else is going to bat for them and can stand up for the Palestinian people because Israel is verging on a puppet state for the military super power that props up NATO is extremely depressing. But there's not really a lot the average Joe can do about that. 

 

Edited 9 October 2023 by Finnegan

[bovril]

3 hours ago, StanSP said:

The first one below might sound like the dumbest question as I'm not totally clued up on the full background/context of Israel/Palestine, so need to educate myself/be educated. 

 

What's the difference between this conflict, and Ukraine fighting back against Russia when it comes to protecting/keeping land they purportedly own? Linked to that, why are Palestinians called terrorists, but Ukraine army fighting back isn't? 

How come our government heavily backs Israel? 

I imagine the Palestinian cause gets less sympathy in Europe compared to Ukraine because:

- Ukraine is on our side. Hamas and other anti Islamic fundamentalist groups are not only anti Israel but anti West in general and have condoned terrorist attacks in Europe. In the same way Russia has called for London and Warsaw to be nuked.

- They're killing Jews and there are probably a couple of people even on this forum who were born when this was also happening in Europe.

- They shoot up civilians and kidnap and rape women 

[Mickyblueeyes]

 

IDF “professionalism”

[Mickyblueeyes]

1 minute ago, bovril said:

I imagine the Palestinian cause gets less sympathy in Europe compared to Ukraine because:

- Ukraine is on our side. Hamas and other anti Islamic fundamentalist groups are not only anti Israel but anti West in general and have condoned terrorist attacks in Europe. In the same way Russia has called for London and Warsaw to be nuked.

- They're killing Jews and there are probably a couple of people even on this forum who were born when this was also happening in Europe.

- They shoot up civilians and kidnap and rape women 

Hamas went to war with the PLO as recently as 2007. A blanket reference to the Palestinians as Hamas is just wrong. 

[Finnegan]

2 minutes ago, Mickyblueeyes said:

Hamas went to war with the PLO as recently as 2007. A blanket reference to the Palestinians as Hamas is just wrong. 

 

Sure just as it is and was wrong to say all Irish republicans are represented by the Provos. But it still happened. 

 

There is absolutely no doubt that Hamas can, do and will cause significant damage to sympathies for Palestine globally by undertaking these sorts of atrocities. 

 

It makes it extremely easy for Israel to broadly dehumanise the Palestinian population which is exactly what they want an excuse to do. 

 

[bovril]

9 minutes ago, Mickyblueeyes said:

Hamas went to war with the PLO as recently as 2007. A blanket reference to the Palestinians as Hamas is just wrong. 

Anyone with half a brain knows this and doesn't need it spelling out for them but I was explaining why I think Palestinians get less sympathy than Ukrainians (in Europe I don't even know if they do to be honest). I also doubt you are that careful when referring to other states or peoples to avoid generalisations.

 

 

[Mickyblueeyes]

8 minutes ago, bovril said:

Anyone with half a brain knows this and doesn't need it spelling out for them but I was explaining why I think Palestinians get less sympathy than Ukrainians (in Europe I don't even know if they do to be honest). I also doubt you are that careful when referring to other states or peoples to avoid generalisations.

 

 

I wasn’t having a go at you or your comment. I was adding to it in that IF reference to Hamas and its atrocities adds to any opinion of the Palestinian cause etc. or lessens the opinion of them, it’s wrong. 
 

In your comment you’ve quite clearly referred to both Hamas and the Palestinians separately (therefore agreeing with my point) so why you’ve taken that comment personally aimed at you (albeit quoting your quite vanilla post), I don’t know. 
 

Thanks for your opinion on my generalisations - whatever they are, sorry if I have that has got your back up. 
 

edit: just to add, the reason WHY I thought it was important to add to your summary (again, not aimed at you which you’ve taken it as), is as someone above has also said, it’s very easy to associate the same and therefore hold a general opinion of a group when that group is not at all a part of it.

Edited 9 October 2023 by Mickyblueeyes

[Finnegan]

I do wish people would stop with the whole "oh but how do you resolve it it's such an impossible problem oh my gosh goodness it's just so complex" wishy washy rubbish though. 

 

I mean, it's not that complex is it? You've got a state with 98.7% Palestinian Arab population that overwhelmingly want self governance and have been under military occupation for decades. 

 

Give them their independence and stop trying to slowly colonise their best bits of land by force evicting them off it to move Israeli settlers in. There you go, Finners solves the middle east, took all of my vast genius knowledge of Arab-Israeli sociopolitical issues (of which I have none.)

 

If it was anywhere else in the world, left wing, right wing or centre, we'd all agree unanimously they should have their independence. We couldn't fvcking wait to recognise Kosovan independence. Literally the day after their announcement the US and UK were tripping over each other in line to be amongst the first to recognise them officially. And just to be clear about this, the PLO recognised Israel's right to exist in peace as far back as 1993, it hasn't been seeking the destruction of Israel for 30 years, the two aren't mutually exclusive, you can have a free Palestine AND a fee Israel. 

 

The solution to Palestine isn't "complex", it's fvcking easy. When we say its "complex" and pretend it's "complex" and act like there's not an immediately obvious answer all the while being morally outraged at the audacity of Putin pretending these bits of Ukraine are his by rights, then are we being hypocritical and then @StanSP you do have a point. 

 

The solution isn't complex there's just a fvck off great big United States in the way saying no and they make up 40% of the world's global military spend so there you fvcking go. That's not complex, it's really, really simple. 

[StanSP]

54 minutes ago, Finnegan said:

There aren't really any good guys with guns down there on either side and any comparison to Ukraine's defence forces is extremely unfair to be honest. 

Just wanted to highlight that I wasn't comparing this conflict to the Ukraine conflict, at least not directly or in response to what happened yesterday, and it wasn't the intention to dumb down what Ukraine's forces are doing and trying to defend. I just really had no idea who the 'good' guys are, if any. Not that there are anyway in war, you perhaps just get the lesser of two evils. 

 

I've kept myself out of the loop, perhaps intentionally, purely because there is just so much misery in the world. And there's fvck all many of us here can do. 

[st albans fox]

3 minutes ago, Finnegan said:

I do wish people would stop with the whole "oh but how do you resolve it it's such an impossible problem oh my gosh goodness it's just so complex" wishy washy rubbish though. 

 

I mean, it's not that complex is it? You've got a state with 98.7% Palestinian Arab population that overwhelmingly want self governance and have been under military occupation for decades. 

 

Give them their independence and stop trying to slowly colonise their best bits of land by force evicting them off it to move Israeli settlers in. There you go, Finners solves the middle east, took all of my vast genius knowledge of Arab-Israeli sociopolitical issues (of which I have none.)

 

If it was anywhere else in the world, left wing, right wing or centre, we'd all agree unanimously they should have their independence. We couldn't fvcking wait to recognise Kosovan independence. Literally the day after their announcement the US and UK were tripping over each other in line to be amongst the first to recognise them officially. And just to be clear about this, the PLO recognised Israel's right to exist in peace as far back as 1993, it hasn't been seeking the destruction of Israel for 30 years, the two aren't mutually exclusive, you can have a free Palestine AND a fee Israel. 

 

The solution to Palestine isn't "complex", it's fvcking easy. When we say its "complex" and pretend it's "complex" and act like there's not an immediately obvious answer all the while being morally outraged at the audacity of Putin pretending these bits of Ukraine are his by rights, then are we being hypocritical and then @StanSP you do have a point. 

 

The solution isn't complex there's just a fvck off great big United States in the way saying no and they make up 40% of the world's global military spend so there you fvcking go. That's not complex, it's really, really simple. 

Leadership on both sides

 

The opportunity for a lasting peace was in the early 2000’s when barak was PM.  Arafat refused because it didn’t include the right to return for all Palestinians - someone will help to explain if that was across the whole region or just West Bank and Gaza. (obvs there were other bits that weren’t right for the PLO to accept but  they could have negotiated from a starting point to be revisited as time went by and trust established)

 

Since then the gazans voted hamas into power - how do you negotiate with someone who expressly wants you dead ?

 

the Israeli govt has also become less and less of a realistic partner for peace due to a political system that delivers weak govt beholden to extreme parties on both sides 

 

If the hamas political movement were able to display a modicum of evidence that they could exert control over their fighting wing then maybe you could move forward but I don’t recall that ever being a thing.  

The average Palestinian and Israeli just want to live their lives in peaceful co existence.  Sadly they aren’t in control.
 

(You could argue that what’s happened here over the past decade shows that the average person has little control of what happens in a country)

 

[Finnegan]

3 minutes ago, StanSP said:

Just wanted to highlight that I wasn't comparing this conflict to the Ukraine conflict, at least not directly or in response to what happened yesterday, and it wasn't the intention to dumb down what Ukraine's forces are doing and trying to defend. I just really had no idea who the 'good' guys are, if any. Not that there are anyway in war, you perhaps just get the lesser of two evils. 

 

I've kept myself out of the loop, perhaps intentionally, purely because there is just so much misery in the world. And there's fvck all many of us here can do. 

 

Bottom line is, Ukraine war is as close to a straightforward Good Guys vs Bad Guys war as you'll ever get in the 21st century. An evil dictator tried invading his neighbour to steal some land and is being repelled. 

 

The current situation in Israel is largely Hamas undertaking what they perceive as retaliatory attacks on Israel following what's been a series of hostility from the Israeli state towards Palestine for months now since Netanyahu came back. Incidents like Jenin and Al Aqsa have been brewing all summer. 

 

Want to be really clear and repeat what I said earlier, Hamas are a completely disgusting fundamentalist religious terrorist organisation that commit horrid acts that should never be condoned. 

 

But this is pretty much exactly the escalation that Netanyahu was agitating for, he's pretty much got the inevitable reaction he was after and it'll no doubt be used as justification to put further sanctions on Palestine, take more of their land, agitate them further and keep perpetuating the cycle. 

 

[westernpark]

47 minutes ago, Mickyblueeyes said:

 

IDF “professionalism”

Surely that is the decision of the politicians rather than IDF, therefore it is not necessarily a great supporting example of any alleged misdemeanours by the IDF.
I have worried for Israel and subsequently any possible peace process progress for months, a result of Bibi Netanhayu’s judicial reforms. I believe Gallant(above) was nearly sacked as he opposed these reforms but protests from Israeli’s changed Bibi’s mind. 

My parents have hosted Palestinian children over the years and I hope they are all keeping safe. The potential retaliation into Gaza is going to be incredibly dangerous for all residents. In addition, I find the scenes of jubilation in this country at the acts of Hamas terrorists incredibly vile. Anti-semitism is clearly rife, you only have to see the security enforced at Jewish schools in Manchester and London, in comparison to other faith schools to understand the fear this causes the Jewish communities in this country. I would recommend people listening to the pod save the world podcast episode that was recorded over the weekend. They hit the right balance of making sure this outright act of terrorism condemned, but calling for, as many posters have above, a need to find a solution to this historic problem. This act of terrorism by Hamas did not occur in a vacuum.

[Daggers]

4 hours ago, leicsmac said:

... and sometimes political policy is then specifically written with those people and those platforms in mind.

 

It's a brave new world.

 

[breadandcheese]

50 minutes ago, Finnegan said:

 

Bottom line is, Ukraine war is as close to a straightforward Good Guys vs Bad Guys war as you'll ever get in the 21st century. An evil dictator tried invading his neighbour to steal some land and is being repelled. 

 

The current situation in Israel is largely Hamas undertaking what they perceive as retaliatory attacks on Israel following what's been a series of hostility from the Israeli state towards Palestine for months now since Netanyahu came back. Incidents like Jenin and Al Aqsa have been brewing all summer. 

 

Want to be really clear and repeat what I said earlier, Hamas are a completely disgusting fundamentalist religious terrorist organisation that commit horrid acts that should never be condoned. 

 

But this is pretty much exactly the escalation that Netanyahu was agitating for, he's pretty much got the inevitable reaction he was after and it'll no doubt be used as justification to put further sanctions on Palestine, take more of their land, agitate them further and keep perpetuating the cycle. 

 

Don't get me wrong, Netanyahu is a c*nt but he didn't want this reaction and was not some political aim as part of a grand plan against the Palestinians.

 

This was the biggest loss of Jewish life in a single day since the Holocaust. It is the biggest failure of Israeli intelligence since the Yom Kippur War. The first act of government is to protect its citizens. He failed. After the war finishes, his political career is over. And good riddance.

[leicsmac]

8 minutes ago, Daggers said:

 

And again we need a facility where you can use both the and emojis to react to a single post.

[Finnegan]

16 minutes ago, breadandcheese said:

After the war finishes, his political career is over. And good riddance.

 

It would be nice to share your optimism. 

[Trav Le Bleu]

3 hours ago, leicsmac said:

For me that's just viewing something like this as more than a simple black/ white, good guy/bad guy dichotomy (which it obviously is), but I can see the point being made here.

Quite. Whatever happened to "being big" and "rising above it"? Perceived as weakness by most, when actually it's the much stronger thing to do.

[st albans fox]

6 minutes ago, Finnegan said:

 

It would be nice to share your optimism. 

his whole shtick was basically that he would protect israeli civilians and keep the country secure. he was too busy concentrating military assets in the west bank to protect settlers (which keeps his govt in place via coalition with 'extremist parties') which meant the gaza border wasnt protected as it should be.

 

as referenced above, this loss of life in one day is horrific.  it wont be as quick as some would like to see but he is finished beyond the period he can stick it out for post the current war.