Also in the News - Part 2

[Finnegan]

4 minutes ago, st albans fox said:

his whole shtick was basically that he would protect israeli civilians and keep the country secure. he was too busy concentrating military assets in the west bank to protect settlers (which keeps his govt in place via coalition with 'extremist parties') which meant the gaza border wasnt protected as it should be.

 

as referenced above, this loss of life in one day is horrific.  it wont be as quick as some would like to see but he is finished beyond the period he can stick it out for post the current war.

 

Logically you should be right but nationalist demagogues have historically been very good at shifting the blame from themselves and presenting themselves as the solution not the problem. 

 

These willy pullers from Putin to Modi to Trump somehow manage to keep their "fanbase" (because that's what it is) blind to their faults and Netanyahu is firmly in their class. 

 

Edited 9 October 2023 by Finnegan

[Wortho]

I see a University of Manchester "legal advisor" female student,  says she is "full of pride and joy for what has happened" in Israel. 

 

How can anyone take delight in civilians being murdered, raped and taken hostage is absolutely astonishing. I saw that Corbyn did not condone the murderous antics of his Palestinian friends. Also, the pro-Hamas Labour MP's seem to be reticent about their terrorist outrage.

[st albans fox]

1 hour ago, Finnegan said:

 

Logically you should be right but nationalist demagogues have historically been very good at shifting the blame from themselves and presenting themselves as the solution not the problem. 

 

These willy pullers from Putin to Modi to Trump somehow manage to keep their "fanbase" (because that's what it is) blind to their faults and Netanyahu is firmly in their class. 

 

His fanbase is not enough to be elected - I presume that his coalition will attempt to hang on because many of the small parties involved have no chance of being in office if this current govt falls apart.  But I expect something will give and another GE won’t be far away - I think there have been three in the past three years!  A raft of middle ground voters gave their support to likud because they believed netenyahu was the man to protect them and the country from harm.  That has disintegrated and no matter what happens now to Hamas, those 700+ people are not coming back.  I expect the majority of families in Israel are touched personally by this horror - that’s why I can’t see him managing to hang on. 

[st albans fox]

59 minutes ago, Wortho said:

I see a University of Manchester "legal advisor" female student,  says she is "full of pride and joy for what has happened" in Israel. 

 

How can anyone take delight in civilians being murdered, raped and taken hostage is absolutely astonishing. I saw that Corbyn did not condone the murderous antics of his Palestinian friends. Also, the pro-Hamas Labour MP's seem to be reticent about their terrorist outrage.

Can there actually be pro Hamas Labour mp’s ?  It’s a prescribed organisation. 

 

not condoning acts of terror isn’t condemning them 

[Guest Kopfkino]

2 hours ago, Finnegan said:

I do wish people would stop with the whole "oh but how do you resolve it it's such an impossible problem oh my gosh goodness it's just so complex" wishy washy rubbish though. 

 

I mean, it's not that complex is it? You've got a state with 98.7% Palestinian Arab population that overwhelmingly want self governance and have been under military occupation for decades. 

 

Give them their independence and stop trying to slowly colonise their best bits of land by force evicting them off it to move Israeli settlers in. There you go, Finners solves the middle east, took all of my vast genius knowledge of Arab-Israeli sociopolitical issues (of which I have none.)

 

If it was anywhere else in the world, left wing, right wing or centre, we'd all agree unanimously they should have their independence. We couldn't fvcking wait to recognise Kosovan independence. Literally the day after their announcement the US and UK were tripping over each other in line to be amongst the first to recognise them officially. And just to be clear about this, the PLO recognised Israel's right to exist in peace as far back as 1993, it hasn't been seeking the destruction of Israel for 30 years, the two aren't mutually exclusive, you can have a free Palestine AND a fee Israel. 

 

The solution to Palestine isn't "complex", it's fvcking easy. When we say its "complex" and pretend it's "complex" and act like there's not an immediately obvious answer all the while being morally outraged at the audacity of Putin pretending these bits of Ukraine are his by rights, then are we being hypocritical and then @StanSP you do have a point. 

 

The solution isn't complex there's just a fvck off great big United States in the way saying no and they make up 40% of the world's global military spend so there you fvcking go. That's not complex, it's really, really simple. 

I didn’t think I’d write this but I have. No disagreement on a two-state solution but being able to utter three words doesn’t make something not complex. TLDR - sure it’s super simple if you ignore the complexity of actually having to make something happen & use the shortcut of the US as a malign influence to understand the world.

————————————————————

The reality of a military occupation is concerning and undesirable. 98.7% of Palestinians in specific territories advocating for self-governance speaks volumes. Naturally, there's a strong push for a solution where military occupation by Israel is not a part. However, the equation isn't just about the majority's desire. The concerns of the minority, especially regarding potential marginalization or violence in a prospective majority-Arab state, bring added layers to the discourse. Complexity.

Israeli settlements in the West Bank and East Jerusalem present a challenge & I don’t sit here supporting them. The UN and a majority of the international community view these settlements as a breach of international law, Israel perceives them in the light of religious, historical, nationalistic entitlements and yes strategic assets (not desirable sure). Some posit a solution in the resettlement of Israelis back to Israel, bypassing historical ties to the West Bank and East Jerusalem. However, such a proposal is brimming with complexities—notably the socio-political repercussions and the challenge of reconciling historical and religious attachments. Complexity

Jerusalem's essence encapsulates the broader strife. Its religious and historical weight to Jews, Muslims, and Christians render its status incredibly sensitive. Proposals to divide it have recurrently faltered. The intricacy of religious sites, their historical interconnectivity, and the city's symbolic weight make any division proposition exceptionally complicated. Past initiatives, like the Clinton Parameters in 2000 suggesting a division based on demographic lines or previous suggestions to internationalise the city were met with significant challenges. The deep-rooted emotional, religious, and historical ties that many have to the city make its status a core issue that has defied multiple solutions over decades. Big complexity

The haste with which Kosovo was recognized by many nations, including powerhouses like the U.S. and the U.K., contrasts sharply with the protracted recognition process for Palestine. While Kosovo's independence did emerge from ethno-religious tensions, its global recognition was not encumbered by the kind of historical and religious intricacies that Israel-Palestine presents. The comparison with India and Pakistan, on the other hand, showcases how even recognised nations can face enduring conflicts and disputes that mean just uttering three words does not present a simple future. The inconsistency in global response hints at the unique geopolitical intricacies and sensitivities surrounding the Israel-Palestine situation, as opposed to a straightforward reluctance to recognise an oppressed majority's right to statehood - because that’s what understanding complexity does.

The nuances within Palestinian leadership also present an issue Sure cite the PLO recognising Israel and you’ve clearly denounced Hamas multiple times but just the presence of Hamas adds complexity. But ignoring Hamas, while the PLO and PA have overlapping leadership figures, they have shown occasional policy and strategic misalignments. During the early 2000s, while the PLO sought international mediation and diplomatic avenues for resolution, the PA, dealing with on-ground confrontations, made decisions and statements that appeared to conflict this. In 2011, the PLO aggressively pursued a bid for full member-state status at the United Nations, which appeared to sidestep the direct negotiations approach emphasized by the Oslo framework, under which the PA operated. So even among moderate Palestinian factions, synchronizing strategies and priorities can be challenging, contributing to the complexities of the peace process.

 

But while the U.S.'s influence is unquestionable, the region's web of alliances and rivalries plays a substantial role. And regional powers, such as Iran, Qatar, Turkey, and Egypt, have varying degrees of influence over Palestinian factions. Their support, whether political, financial, or military, can sway decisions and strategies adopted by these factions. Sure, many of them are acting to satisfy their strategic interests wrt the US but to pretend it’s just the US in the way is classic of this brand of reductionism whereby geopolitics (for all we might see it as undesirable or dumb) is the US being a malign influence. Arab states, historically advocating for Palestine, have shown periods of uncertainty. We really can’t pretend that if it was left to them to sort it out between them in the Middle East without outside influence and with a cooperative, non-Netanyahu Israel that they’d manage it.

Of course, even if we remove the US from the equation, idk pretend it’s a group of 50 disparate states not under any sort of union. The global stage still sees the likes of Russia, China, European nations and regional powerhouses also shaping narratives. Narratives that change, not necessarily for the better, if the US isn’t a thing. Which is just simply to say that geopolitics is a thing with or without the US. 

 

 

 

[dsr-burnley]

2 hours ago, Trav Le Bleu said:

Quite. Whatever happened to "being big" and "rising above it"? Perceived as weakness by most, when actually it's the much stronger thing to do.

Unlikely.  If you see a member of your family or a friend being killed, do you "be big" and "rise above it", or do you try and do something about it?  

 

You will struggle to persuade the Israelis (or anyone else) that if they do nothing and take no action, it won't happen again.

[Happy Fox]

 

This was Netanyahu at the UN back in September 2023, no wonder the likes of Iran, Syria, Lebanon and others are peeved off.

[leicsmac]

7 minutes ago, dsr-burnley said:

Unlikely.  If you see a member of your family or a friend being killed, do you "be big" and "rise above it", or do you try and do something about it?  

 

You will struggle to persuade the Israelis (or anyone else) that if they do nothing and take no action, it won't happen again.

Quite.

 

Unfortunately, that is the flaw that allows the cycle of violence to keep going round and round.

[Wortho]

14 minutes ago, st albans fox said:

Can there actually be pro Hamas Labour mp’s ?  It’s a prescribed organisation. 

 

not condoning acts of terror isn’t condemning them 

There is Apsana Begum Labour MP for example. Parading before a Flag hours after this atrocity.

[leicsmac]

12 minutes ago, Kopfkino said:

I didn’t think I’d write this but I have. No disagreement on a two-state solution but being able to utter three words doesn’t make something not complex. TLDR - sure it’s super simple if you ignore the complexity of actually having to make something happen & use the shortcut of the US as a malign influence to understand the world.

————————————————————

The reality of a military occupation is concerning and undesirable. 98.7% of Palestinians in specific territories advocating for self-governance speaks volumes. Naturally, there's a strong push for a solution where military occupation by Israel is not a part. However, the equation isn't just about the majority's desire. The concerns of the minority, especially regarding potential marginalization or violence in a prospective majority-Arab state, bring added layers to the discourse. Complexity.

Israeli settlements in the West Bank and East Jerusalem present a challenge & I don’t sit here supporting them. The UN and a majority of the international community view these settlements as a breach of international law, Israel perceives them in the light of religious, historical, nationalistic entitlements and yes strategic assets (not desirable sure). Some posit a solution in the resettlement of Israelis back to Israel, bypassing historical ties to the West Bank and East Jerusalem. However, such a proposal is brimming with complexities—notably the socio-political repercussions and the challenge of reconciling historical and religious attachments. Complexity

Jerusalem's essence encapsulates the broader strife. Its religious and historical weight to Jews, Muslims, and Christians render its status incredibly sensitive. Proposals to divide it have recurrently faltered. The intricacy of religious sites, their historical interconnectivity, and the city's symbolic weight make any division proposition exceptionally complicated. Past initiatives, like the Clinton Parameters in 2000 suggesting a division based on demographic lines or previous suggestions to internationalise the city were met with significant challenges. The deep-rooted emotional, religious, and historical ties that many have to the city make its status a core issue that has defied multiple solutions over decades. Big complexity

The haste with which Kosovo was recognized by many nations, including powerhouses like the U.S. and the U.K., contrasts sharply with the protracted recognition process for Palestine. While Kosovo's independence did emerge from ethno-religious tensions, its global recognition was not encumbered by the kind of historical and religious intricacies that Israel-Palestine presents. The comparison with India and Pakistan, on the other hand, showcases how even recognised nations can face enduring conflicts and disputes that mean just uttering three words does not present a simple future. The inconsistency in global response hints at the unique geopolitical intricacies and sensitivities surrounding the Israel-Palestine situation, as opposed to a straightforward reluctance to recognise an oppressed majority's right to statehood - because that’s what understanding complexity does.

The nuances within Palestinian leadership also present an issue Sure cite the PLO recognising Israel and you’ve clearly denounced Hamas multiple times but just the presence of Hamas adds complexity. But ignoring Hamas, while the PLO and PA have overlapping leadership figures, they have shown occasional policy and strategic misalignments. During the early 2000s, while the PLO sought international mediation and diplomatic avenues for resolution, the PA, dealing with on-ground confrontations, made decisions and statements that appeared to conflict this. In 2011, the PLO aggressively pursued a bid for full member-state status at the United Nations, which appeared to sidestep the direct negotiations approach emphasized by the Oslo framework, under which the PA operated. So even among moderate Palestinian factions, synchronizing strategies and priorities can be challenging, contributing to the complexities of the peace process.

 

But while the U.S.'s influence is unquestionable, the region's web of alliances and rivalries plays a substantial role. And regional powers, such as Iran, Qatar, Turkey, and Egypt, have varying degrees of influence over Palestinian factions. Their support, whether political, financial, or military, can sway decisions and strategies adopted by these factions. Sure, many of them are acting to satisfy their strategic interests wrt the US but to pretend it’s just the US in the way is classic of this brand of reductionism whereby geopolitics (for all we might see it as undesirable or dumb) is the US being a malign influence. Arab states, historically advocating for Palestine, have shown periods of uncertainty. We really can’t pretend that if it was left to them to sort it out between them in the Middle East without outside influence and with a cooperative, non-Netanyahu Israel that they’d manage it.

Of course, even if we remove the US from the equation, idk pretend it’s a group of 50 disparate states not under any sort of union. The global stage still sees the likes of Russia, China, European nations and regional powerhouses also shaping narratives. Narratives that change, not necessarily for the better, if the US isn’t a thing. Which is just simply to say that geopolitics is a thing with or without the US. 

 

 

 

The only thing that I'd add to this analysis is that hopefully anyone with a brain sees what you see and sees not only the US as a malign (or simply ignorant where it suits them) influence in this and other cases, but also the other global powers - mostly Russia and China, and also the EU as a bloc and include it in their own analysis of such situations. That really should be obvious IMO.

[MPH]

4 hours ago, Mickyblueeyes said:

 

IDF “professionalism”

 

 

and this is one of my main concerns..

 

sure. Shoot every Hamas fighter  you find.  Get a Few punches in first if you really have to.. my point is , take your anger out on the army that caused this… don’t take it out on women and children - who’s rights you are furious about being violated.

[bmt]

13 minutes ago, Wortho said:

There is Apsana Begum Labour MP for example. Parading before a Flag hours after this atrocity.

I mean sure thats pretty stupid but it isn't necessarily pro-Hamas is it?

[Foxdiamond]

9 minutes ago, MPH said:

 

 

and this is one of my main concerns..

 

sure. Shoot every Hamas fighter  you find.  Get a Few punches in first if you really have to.. my point is , take your anger out on the army that caused this… don’t take it out on women and children - who’s rights you are furious about being violated.

Of course Hamas don't fight as a uniformed army and can merge into the innocent community 

[Happy Fox]

Just now, bmt said:

I mean sure thats pretty stupid but it isn't necessarily pro-Hamas is it?

 

Also this MP in Scotland.

 

Maggie Chapman MSP

 

@MaggieChapman

 

What’s happening in #Palestine is a consequence of #Apartheid, of illegal occupation,m & of imperial aggression by the Israel state. Palestinian civilians have seen their homes destroyed, their water stolen & their land appropriated illegally. #GazaUnderAttack #VivaPalestine

[foxy boxing]

5 hours ago, Mickyblueeyes said:

 

IDF “professionalism”

This would be a war crime. But let's be honest war crimes trials are only for those the west has defeated!.

[Happy Fox]

[LFox99]

21 minutes ago, MPH said:

 

 

and this is one of my main concerns..

 

sure. Shoot every Hamas fighter  you find.  Get a Few punches in first if you really have to.. my point is , take your anger out on the army that caused this… don’t take it out on women and children - who’s rights you are furious about being violated.

This is quite literally a case of don't bite the hand that feeds you.

Israel left Gaza in 2005, since then the Hamas leadership has undertaken no efforts to establish any sort of independence from Israel regarding water, food, or power. 
There is only so much Israel can do to protect civilians but also target Hamas and get the hostages back. They already employ roof knocking before striking targets, full-well knowing suspected terrorists will get away. I wouldn't put the blame for the civilian deaths on Israel. This is on Hamas, they wanted this very thing happening - they need the civilian casualties for their hate speech and propaganda, they don't have a single regard for innocent human lives, not those of their own people. 

The war down there will end the day Palestinians start loving their children more than they hate Jews

[LFox99]

2 minutes ago, Happy Fox said:

So now they're crying victim? 

I'll also gladly ignore any articles or posts that are by AlJazeera. Only two days ago they had a man on air who proudly proclaimed that the Palestinian people will never stop fighting as long as there are still Jews living in Israel. What can you expect from a station which is owned by Qatari royalty, the same royalty who harbours the Hamas leadership in luxury, away from their supposed home

[MPH]

Slight plot twist , Maybe..

 

 

 It’s been confirmed that 9 American citizens have  been killed in the Hamas attacks.

[Mickyblueeyes]

The video of the Palestinian child post being set on fire by Israeli settlers is horrific. I just can’t understand how anyone can say in this instance, I’m picking a side. It’s sick what is happening. Two ultra right psychos on each side and groups of people now destined to hate each other and carry out horrendous acts of violence. You can’t be right thinking any of this is right, justified, acceptable, deserved etc. 

[westernpark]

1 minute ago, MPH said:

Slight plot twist , Maybe..

 

 

 It’s been confirmed that 9 American citizens have  been killed in the Hamas attacks.

Unfortunately there will likely be more confirmed as well as Brits, due to the duel nationality that many Israeli’s have. It does not mean there will be an escalation on the U.S’s part hopefully, Gerald Ford is sitting by the coast in case Syria get involved (according to a number of verified experts on Sky News).

[st albans fox]

2 minutes ago, MPH said:

Slight plot twist , Maybe..

 

 

 It’s been confirmed that 9 American citizens have  been killed in the Hamas attacks.

Hardly a plot twist 

it will be higher than that 

 

the U.K. will also lose more than that 

 

Thailand has already lost a dozen citizens murdered with a further 11 abducted 

 

these international hostages complicate any land invasion by Israel and negs behind the scenes continue, brokered by Qatar 

 

I wonder if we’ll see Israel restore water and electricity in return for the release of some hostages.   Israel will argue that supplying power to Gaza enables Hamas fighters to make and launch rockets against them.  It’s a tough argument. 

 

 

[MPH]

7 minutes ago, LFox99 said:

This is quite literally a case of don't bite the hand that feeds you.

Israel left Gaza in 2005, since then the Hamas leadership has undertaken no efforts to establish any sort of independence from Israel regarding water, food, or power. 
There is only so much Israel can do to protect civilians but also target Hamas and get the hostages back. They already employ roof knocking before striking targets, full-well knowing suspected terrorists will get away. I wouldn't put the blame for the civilian deaths on Israel. This is on Hamas, they wanted this very thing happening - they need the civilian casualties for their hate speech and propaganda, they don't have a single regard for innocent human lives, not those of their own people. 

The war down there will end the day Palestinians start loving their children more than they hate Jews

 

I don’t disagree with some of what you are saying and if you ever get the chance read a book called Son of Hamas. It’s about the son of one of the leaders of Hamas being so repulsed about their Brutality to even their own people, that he turned  on them.

 

 

 

But I still maintain that one set of human rights violations is not an excuse to commit another..

[westernpark]

1 minute ago, Mickyblueeyes said:

The video of the Palestinian child post being set on fire by Israeli settlers is horrific. I just can’t understand how anyone can say in this instance, I’m picking a side. It’s sick what is happening. Two ultra right psychos on each side and groups of people now destined to hate each other and carry out horrendous acts of violence. You can’t be right thinking any of this is right, justified, acceptable, deserved etc. 

is the video verified? That is an act beyond human comprehension if real. 

[leicsmac]

8 minutes ago, LFox99 said:

This is quite literally a case of don't bite the hand that feeds you.

Israel left Gaza in 2005, since then the Hamas leadership has undertaken no efforts to establish any sort of independence from Israel regarding water, food, or power. 
There is only so much Israel can do to protect civilians but also target Hamas and get the hostages back. They already employ roof knocking before striking targets, full-well knowing suspected terrorists will get away. I wouldn't put the blame for the civilian deaths on Israel. This is on Hamas, they wanted this very thing happening - they need the civilian casualties for their hate speech and propaganda, they don't have a single regard for innocent human lives, not those of their own people. 

The war down there will end the day Palestinians start loving their children more than they hate Jews

Morbid moral thoughtpoint there IMO.

 

If person A is left deliberately by person B where they can be harmed by person C, and then person C actually pulls the trigger - who is mostly responsible for the harm inflicted on person A? The person who set up the situation, or the person who actually carried out the act? Or both?