Also in the News - Part 2

[st albans fox]

22 minutes ago, Happy Fox said:

 

Also this MP in Scotland.

 

Maggie Chapman MSP

 

@MaggieChapman

 

What’s happening in #Palestine is a consequence of #Apartheid, of illegal occupation,m & of imperial aggression by the Israel state. Palestinian civilians have seen their homes destroyed, their water stolen & their land appropriated illegally. #GazaUnderAttack #VivaPalestine

not sure that counts as supporting the Hamas attacks  - it’s an opinion that is widely felt. But there should be condemnation of the attacks at the same time. 

[MPH]

1 minute ago, st albans fox said:

Hardly a plot twist 

it will be higher than that 

 

the U.K. will also lose more than that 

 

Thailand has already lost a dozen citizens murdered with a further 11 abducted 

 

these international hostages complicate any land invasion by Israel and negs behind the scenes continue, brokered by Qatar 

 

I wonder if we’ll see Israel restore water and electricity in return for the release of some hostages.   Israel will argue that supplying power to Gaza enables Hamas fighters to make and launch rockets against them.  It’s a tough argument. 

 

 

 

well the plot twist being that the Unites states will have every excuse they need to deepen their commitment to Israel  and their devide with Iran  should they be found as being responsible for  the funding and equipment that made its way to Hamas.

[Mickyblueeyes]

2 minutes ago, westernpark said:

is the video verified? That is an act beyond human comprehension if real. 

Honestly, no idea. The stuff I’ve seen on Twitter/X today has made me shut it down. Scary stuff, comments etc. from people you’d expect better from. Most, if not all sat in very comfortable chairs watching from afar. 

[st albans fox]

6 minutes ago, westernpark said:

is the video verified? That is an act beyond human comprehension if real. 

No idea if it’s real - I guess we’ll find out eventually.  

much of what is on social media needs to be treated with caution  -  media like bbc verify one of the best places to get information 

[st albans fox]

7 minutes ago, MPH said:

 

well the plot twist being that the Unites states will have every excuse they need to deepen their commitment to Israel  and their devide with Iran  should they be found as being responsible for  the funding and equipment that made its way to Hamas.

The USA stands steadfast behind Israel - that won’t change.  and we all know that Iran is behind Hamas military wing  - just as it is hezbollah. 

[westernpark]

8 minutes ago, Mickyblueeyes said:

Honestly, no idea. The stuff I’ve seen on Twitter/X today has made me shut it down. Scary stuff, comments etc. from people you’d expect better from. Most, if not all sat in very comfortable chairs watching from afar. 

 

3 minutes ago, st albans fox said:

No idea if it’s real - I guess we’ll find out eventually.  

much of what is on social media needs to be treated with caution  -  media like bbc verify one of the best places to get information 

Yes BBC verified are excellent. I don’t have social media, except foxestalk if that counts! The decision being demonstrated by times like this when horrific unpoliced and unverified videos and images pop up, whilst armchair experts offer their opinion on them. It’s scary that when I talk to friends and acquaintances, they use social media as if this is acceptable evidence for whatever their claims are. There has been a real tangible increase since Covid, we’re now seeing it enter mainstream politics with false claims about 15 minute cities and so on.

[leicsmac]

2 minutes ago, westernpark said:

 

Yes BBC verified are excellent. I don’t have social media, except foxestalk if that counts! The decision being demonstrated by times like this when horrific unpoliced and unverified videos and images pop up, whilst armchair experts offer their opinion on them. It’s scary that when I talk to friends and acquaintances, they use social media as if this is acceptable evidence for whatever their claims are. There has been a real tangible increase since Covid, we’re now seeing it enter mainstream politics with false claims about 15 minute cities and so on.

Yupppp....

 

*facepalms and cries again in science communicator*

[Wortho]

50 minutes ago, bmt said:

I mean sure thats pretty stupid but it isn't necessarily pro-Hamas is it?

 

36 minutes ago, LFox99 said:

So now they're crying victim? 

I'll also gladly ignore any articles or posts that are by AlJazeera. Only two days ago they had a man on air who proudly proclaimed that the Palestinian people will never stop fighting as long as there are still Jews living in Israel. What can you expect from a station which is owned by Qatari royalty, the same royalty who harbours the Hamas leadership in luxury, away from their supposed home

I really can’t understand how people can’t condemn these murderous savages. Hamas know exactly how the IDF will react, but that shows how much they care about their people. 
It is the hatred that drives them and Iran is sponsoring them.

[SpacedX]

4 hours ago, Finnegan said:

But this is pretty much exactly the escalation that Netanyahu was agitating for, he's pretty much got the inevitable reaction he was after and it'll no doubt be used as justification to put further sanctions on Palestine, take more of their land, agitate them further and keep perpetuating the cycle. 

 

Not really. His objective is to win but absolve himself of blame and just as Putin has done, indict his Generals, similarly for a lack of preparation and woeful failings in intelligence. Also like Putin, he is the greatest survivor and has orchestrated some of the greatest comebacks since Lazarus. But ultimately, this happened on his watch. He knows full well that Israeli PMs do not long survive military debacles. Think Meir after the Yom Kippur war, Begin following the first Lebanon War and Olmert after the second. Netanyahu will already be searching for scapegoats and this was anything but a means to deliver some grand designs. 

 

3 hours ago, breadandcheese said:

Don't get me wrong, Netanyahu is a c*nt but he didn't want this reaction and was not some political aim as part of a grand plan against the Palestinians.

 

^

10 minutes ago, st albans fox said:

and we all know that Iran is behind Hamas military wing  - just as it is hezbollah. 

Precisely this. Hezbollah have been relentlessly shelling the North from Lebanon and make no mistake this was an Iran backed initiative to destabilise the region. Why? The feared influence from Riyadh and the establishment of joint US backed nuclear plants and defences. Hamas are merely a pawn that they would be prepared to sacrifice in their strategic game of chess. 

[Lionator]

This whole moral, ‘you have to denounce or take a side’ thing is utterly exhausting. Of course not as much as the suffering experience on both sides but one only has enough mental energy to watch things like this. 

[Guest Kopfkino]

1 hour ago, leicsmac said:

The only thing that I'd add to this analysis is that hopefully anyone with a brain sees what you see and sees not only the US as a malign (or simply ignorant where it suits them) influence in this and other cases, but also the other global powers - mostly Russia and China, and also the EU as a bloc and include it in their own analysis of such situations. That really should be obvious IMO.

But actually what I missed (mainly cos i got sidetracked with the dumbness of it all being the US’s fault) is Saudi and Iran or even most of the rest of the region and Iran is ultimately what matters. 
 

I know agency in the Middle East is often ignored but maybe start at the fact that Palestinians have become an Iranian pawn which ultimately isolates them from the rest of the region which pays little more than lip service to them now. You can even go before that and what drove Palestine to turn to Iran in the first place 

[Finnegan]

1 hour ago, Kopfkino said:

I didn’t think I’d write this but I have. No disagreement on a two-state solution but being able to utter three words doesn’t make something not complex. TLDR - sure it’s super simple if you ignore the complexity of actually having to make something happen & use the shortcut of the US as a malign influence to understand the world.

————————————————————

The reality of a military occupation is concerning and undesirable. 98.7% of Palestinians in specific territories advocating for self-governance speaks volumes. Naturally, there's a strong push for a solution where military occupation by Israel is not a part. However, the equation isn't just about the majority's desire. The concerns of the minority, especially regarding potential marginalization or violence in a prospective majority-Arab state, bring added layers to the discourse. Complexity.

Israeli settlements in the West Bank and East Jerusalem present a challenge & I don’t sit here supporting them. The UN and a majority of the international community view these settlements as a breach of international law, Israel perceives them in the light of religious, historical, nationalistic entitlements and yes strategic assets (not desirable sure). Some posit a solution in the resettlement of Israelis back to Israel, bypassing historical ties to the West Bank and East Jerusalem. However, such a proposal is brimming with complexities—notably the socio-political repercussions and the challenge of reconciling historical and religious attachments. Complexity

Jerusalem's essence encapsulates the broader strife. Its religious and historical weight to Jews, Muslims, and Christians render its status incredibly sensitive. Proposals to divide it have recurrently faltered. The intricacy of religious sites, their historical interconnectivity, and the city's symbolic weight make any division proposition exceptionally complicated. Past initiatives, like the Clinton Parameters in 2000 suggesting a division based on demographic lines or previous suggestions to internationalise the city were met with significant challenges. The deep-rooted emotional, religious, and historical ties that many have to the city make its status a core issue that has defied multiple solutions over decades. Big complexity

The haste with which Kosovo was recognized by many nations, including powerhouses like the U.S. and the U.K., contrasts sharply with the protracted recognition process for Palestine. While Kosovo's independence did emerge from ethno-religious tensions, its global recognition was not encumbered by the kind of historical and religious intricacies that Israel-Palestine presents. The comparison with India and Pakistan, on the other hand, showcases how even recognised nations can face enduring conflicts and disputes that mean just uttering three words does not present a simple future. The inconsistency in global response hints at the unique geopolitical intricacies and sensitivities surrounding the Israel-Palestine situation, as opposed to a straightforward reluctance to recognise an oppressed majority's right to statehood - because that’s what understanding complexity does.

The nuances within Palestinian leadership also present an issue Sure cite the PLO recognising Israel and you’ve clearly denounced Hamas multiple times but just the presence of Hamas adds complexity. But ignoring Hamas, while the PLO and PA have overlapping leadership figures, they have shown occasional policy and strategic misalignments. During the early 2000s, while the PLO sought international mediation and diplomatic avenues for resolution, the PA, dealing with on-ground confrontations, made decisions and statements that appeared to conflict this. In 2011, the PLO aggressively pursued a bid for full member-state status at the United Nations, which appeared to sidestep the direct negotiations approach emphasized by the Oslo framework, under which the PA operated. So even among moderate Palestinian factions, synchronizing strategies and priorities can be challenging, contributing to the complexities of the peace process.

 

But while the U.S.'s influence is unquestionable, the region's web of alliances and rivalries plays a substantial role. And regional powers, such as Iran, Qatar, Turkey, and Egypt, have varying degrees of influence over Palestinian factions. Their support, whether political, financial, or military, can sway decisions and strategies adopted by these factions. Sure, many of them are acting to satisfy their strategic interests wrt the US but to pretend it’s just the US in the way is classic of this brand of reductionism whereby geopolitics (for all we might see it as undesirable or dumb) is the US being a malign influence. Arab states, historically advocating for Palestine, have shown periods of uncertainty. We really can’t pretend that if it was left to them to sort it out between them in the Middle East without outside influence and with a cooperative, non-Netanyahu Israel that they’d manage it.

Of course, even if we remove the US from the equation, idk pretend it’s a group of 50 disparate states not under any sort of union. The global stage still sees the likes of Russia, China, European nations and regional powerhouses also shaping narratives. Narratives that change, not necessarily for the better, if the US isn’t a thing. Which is just simply to say that geopolitics is a thing with or without the US. 

 

 

 

 

I can't really argue with any of this it's a mostly excellent post other than the fact I think you took my glibness a little too literally. 

 

I don't mean to suggest by any means that there's no complexity at all in any resolution or that without America we'd just click our fingers and Palestine would be an independent nation tomorrow. 

 

I just get tired of the same thing being said every time Palestine comes up as an issue. People acting like there's no possible solution and it's all just this one big mystery why the trouble is ongoing. 

 

[leicsmac]

1 minute ago, Lionator said:

This whole moral, ‘you have to denounce or take a side’ thing is utterly exhausting. Of course not as much as the suffering experience on both sides but one only has enough mental energy to watch things like this. 

It really is.

 

There's precious few black and white dichotomies in warfare, and this sure as shit isn't one of them.

.

2 minutes ago, Kopfkino said:

But actually what I missed (mainly cos i got sidetracked with the dumbness of it all being the US’s fault) is Saudi and Iran or even most of the rest of the region and Iran is ultimately what matters. 
 

I know agency in the Middle East is often ignored but maybe start at the fact that Palestinians have become an Iranian pawn which ultimately isolates them from the rest of the region which pays little more than lip service to them now. You can even go before that and what drove Palestine to turn to Iran in the first place 

Local geopolitics does play a part, yeah.

 

The whole thing just seems like so much of a sad and pointless loss of life and innocent people are suffering throughout the region, regardless of alignment, because other people somewhere want to carry on some stupid historical grudge or simply because they want to play powermonger.

[Sol thewall Bamba]

49 minutes ago, westernpark said:

is the video verified? That is an act beyond human comprehension if real. 

Given the video of that IDF soldier that was doing the rounds a couple of days ago laughing as he described raping and killing kids I doubt it's faked. 

 

The whole thing is abhorrent.

[Guest Kopfkino]

10 minutes ago, Finnegan said:

 

I can't really argue with any of this it's a mostly excellent post other than the fact I think you took my glibness a little too literally. 

 

I don't mean to suggest by any means that there's no complexity at all in any resolution or that without America we'd just click our fingers and Palestine would be an independent nation tomorrow. 

 

I just get tired of the same thing being said every time Palestine comes up as an issue. People acting like there's no possible solution and it's all just this one big mystery why the trouble is ongoing. 

 

Yep I probably did and like you I get tired of the whole thing - I was ranting here but it was really directed at the people that I have seen/heard who still approach the subject as if they’re 18 year old students that have just heard of oppressed Palestinians.

[pazzerfox]

Feels like we're a China invasion of Taiwan away from World War 3! Scary times

[Sly]

9 hours ago, Daggers said:

Dear John,

 

Let me introduce you to the Internet social media platforms, where 128 characters are sufficient to detail comprehensive plans and everyone can pretend to hold a PhD…

I always love your sound bites @Daggers 

[Sly]

14 minutes ago, pazzerfox said:

Feels like we're a China invasion of Taiwan away from World War 3! Scary times

What would class it as a World War III? 

 

Reading this:

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ongoing_armed_conflicts

 

It’s surprising just how many ongoing conflicts we have worldwide currently. 

[leicsmac]

1 minute ago, Sly said:

What would class it as a World War III? 

 

Reading this:

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ongoing_armed_conflicts

 

It’s surprising just how many ongoing conflicts we have worldwide currently. 

And I think that's pretty much been the case throughout recorded history.

 

It's saddening and maddening in equal measure. The UNSC does enough to stop the big boys fighting each other and subsequent nuclear holocaust, but it's sadly not fit for purpose regarding practically every other form of conflict going.

[Daggers]

Jon Sopel, ladies and gents. 
 

I heartily recommend The Newsagents podcast to all.  

 

[Sly]

8 minutes ago, Daggers said:

Jon Sopel, ladies and gents. 
 

I heartily recommend The Newsagents podcast to all.  

 

I’d like to both photographed, on the hour, every hour, side by side. 

[Sly]

13 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

And I think that's pretty much been the case throughout recorded history.

 

It's saddening and maddening in equal measure. The UNSC does enough to stop the big boys fighting each other and subsequent nuclear holocaust, but it's sadly not fit for purpose regarding practically every other form of conflict going.

I guess the ongoing conflict in Myanmar, or Sudan don’t get the headlines, as the media find it more difficult to get information. 
 

It’s still tragic what’s occurred in Israel / Palestine, whatever your opinion on who is at fault. 
 

As with most wars, the innocent people become nothing more than a number to sensationalise. Truly awful. 

[StanSP]

1 hour ago, Mickyblueeyes said:

The video of the Palestinian child post being set on fire by Israeli settlers is horrific. I just can’t understand how anyone can say in this instance, I’m picking a side. It’s sick what is happening. Two ultra right psychos on each side and groups of people now destined to hate each other and carry out horrendous acts of violence. You can’t be right thinking any of this is right, justified, acceptable, deserved etc. 

Wtf

 

That's harrowing. 

[SpacedX]

6 minutes ago, StanSP said:

Wtf

 

That's harrowing. 

I pray that it's fake. There are a great many of these that are subsequently debunked. However, the memory of the fate of Mohamed Abu Khdeir still looms large almost ten years later. 

Edited 9 October 2023 by SpacedX

[st albans fox]

4 minutes ago, StanSP said:

Wtf

 

That's harrowing. 

If it’s true Sunil 

the first casualty of war etc etc …………

 

If it has happened then you’d hope that those responsible would be brought to justice.  But I doubt that will happen given that the boy has clearly been taken from the scene to be treated and those who did it won’t come forward.  Wouldn’t expect that we’ll ever find out the truth on this.