bovril Posted 23 February 2023 Share Posted 23 February 2023 19 minutes ago, Captain... said: Although I do think that woke-activism has largely come about or at least come to the fore in response to anti-woke antagonists. Either that or bell ends on twitter. Again it's difficult to say this when the word means different things to different people but it feels to me like a lot of woke-activism comes from elites (businesses, celebrities) who perhaps believe that failing to engage in it will threaten their position in some way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leicsmac Posted 23 February 2023 Share Posted 23 February 2023 6 hours ago, ClaphamFox said: I suppose when people moan about ‘woke’ they’re usually objecting to how smug and didactic it can be. There is nothing inherently woke about caring about social issues. But very often wokeness isn’t about the issues themselves: it’s about using those issues to create a kind of performance art in which demonstrating how well you understand something is more important than the actual business of doing something about it. As long as I publicly show that I fully subscribe to the correct view on a certain issue, I’m ok; if I have reservations or criticisms or even just questions, it’s because I haven’t sufficiently understood it - ie, I’m just not woke enough. Inevitably, this ends up being pretty thought-terminating: context, nuance and mitigating circumstances are not permitted - they’re just evidence that you don’t fully ‘get it’ yet. It’s a totalitarian way of thinking whose primary aim is to scare people into conforming than actually persuading them of anything. In reality, it’s more likely to make people more entrenched in their original positions, building walls and creating division. I don’t think many people object to others being passionate about social justice; it’s the way that passion so often becomes hectoring, inflexible and authoritarian that they get annoyed by. I have a question on this, considering the above likely true and having has similar discussion on the Extinction Rebellion thread a while back. Making the reasonable assumption that people indeed aren't welcoming of hectoring, inflexible and authoritarian passion, what would be the best way to get the necessary number of people on board in (and this is important to quite a few folks) a timely fashion? Or is that not possible, it's going to take a while no matter how things are approached and some people are going to have to be regrettable casualties of that time necessity? I'm truly curious because as above, I saw similar arguments on the XR thread previously and I'm honestly not sure how to impress upon the necessary amount of people the need to do things differently because not doing so rather quickly puts an awful lot of people in danger. Of course though, there's rather a difference in magnitude and timeline between this matter and the matter XR are passionate about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LiberalFox Posted 23 February 2023 Share Posted 23 February 2023 Another way of looking at it is that it's simply a tool of culture war tactics which have been deliberately created as a form of social engineering to further the interests of concentrated power. Create ambiguous word that means different things to different people. Create a culture of fear around the use of language and encourage groups to separate and not engage with each other. This can also be encouraged with more social interaction happening online and with social media being geared towards the formation of echo chambers and 'outrage' culture. Then you can manipulate the fears and prejudices of these individual groups in order to create an 'in' group and an 'out' group. Also known as 'divide and rule'. It's not a new strategy but the tactics in the internet age are a bit different. To me the only solution to either the spread of hate and bigotry or people disappearing up their own backsides is the encouragement of social engagement between different communities. When that happens then people humanise each other and we realise that the vast majority of our needs and wants are the same. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yorkie1999 Posted 23 February 2023 Share Posted 23 February 2023 That Therese Coffey's a bit of a spamhead ain't she. Really looking forward to that cheese and turnip sandwich for tea now. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tommy G Posted 23 February 2023 Share Posted 23 February 2023 12 minutes ago, yorkie1999 said: That Therese Coffey's a bit of a spamhead ain't she. Really looking forward to that cheese and turnip sandwich for tea now. How she is anywhere near a ministerial role is daft. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Foxdiamond Posted 23 February 2023 Share Posted 23 February 2023 1 hour ago, Tommy G said: How she is anywhere near a ministerial role is daft. Who you know not what you know springs to mind Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yorkie1999 Posted 23 February 2023 Share Posted 23 February 2023 13 minutes ago, Foxdiamond said: Who you know not what you know springs to mind Or who you shag, although in her case, it probably is who she knows. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Foxdiamond Posted 23 February 2023 Share Posted 23 February 2023 27 minutes ago, yorkie1999 said: Or who you shag, although in her case, it probably is who she knows. She does serves a purpose. I am 15 years older than her. I see her and think I'm not doing so bad after all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bovril Posted 26 February 2023 Share Posted 26 February 2023 Latest in 'trade barriers are bad actually'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daggers Posted 26 February 2023 Share Posted 26 February 2023 Who could've seen this coming? Who apart from everyone for years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon the Hat Posted 27 February 2023 Share Posted 27 February 2023 On 23/02/2023 at 17:50, Captain... said: It's interesting you focus on the negative aspects of woke. The Wikipedia entry is quite interesting reading: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Woke My interpretation is that wokeness is very distinct from activism, it is about your own personal understanding of social issues and particularly language. Activists are very different and often have an extremist ideology rather than a woke ideology. The difference, for me, between being woke and anti woke can be summed up by a person's reaction to reading this: If you think oh that's interesting I will try not to use crazy in my everyday language you're woke, if you think "that's stupid I've always used that word, and it's my favourite Seal song" then you're not woke and if you think "I'm going to jump on twitter and slam this ridiculousness and make sure I use crazy more." You're anti-woke. The words have changed 30 over the years, 30 years ago coloured was generally acceptable. A more modern example is actress, I still struggle not to say actress for a female actor. There are all the associated issues of representation, visibility, equality which are related to woke ideology but very few of us have any real power to make a real difference on those issues. All we can control is what we do and say and this constant attempt to belittle the concept of trying to say and do the right thing is just bizarre. We should all try to be more woke not wage a war on it. I think you mean 50. 30 years ago I was a teenager and this was unacceptable. My reaction to your post is a bit more nuanced, I would never use the word crazy to describe someone who has or appeared to have a mental illness. I would consider the word has moved on from that to be a more general term for wild behaviour not related to mental illness. I would certainly listen if there was a significant push to avoid it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ozleicester Posted 27 February 2023 Share Posted 27 February 2023 Pages of discussion about use/meaning/impact of words...based around the use of the word "woke" If you realise a word you are using may cause hurt or harm to another.. stop using it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon the Hat Posted 27 February 2023 Share Posted 27 February 2023 14 minutes ago, ozleicester said: Pages of discussion about use/meaning/impact of words...based around the use of the word "woke" If you realise a word you are using may cause hurt or harm to another.. stop using it. The word CIS offends me. Stop using it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ozleicester Posted 27 February 2023 Share Posted 27 February 2023 1 minute ago, Jon the Hat said: The word CIS offends me. Stop using it. My goodness you are a child 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon the Hat Posted 27 February 2023 Share Posted 27 February 2023 7 minutes ago, ozleicester said: My goodness you are a child Sometimes! The point is, lots of people disagree on what is offensive, and you have to make your own decision on whether you care if they are offended. If they are a legitimate minority group, people may rightly give it a lot of thought. If you are a majority group, people may well think you should suck it up. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daggers Posted 27 February 2023 Share Posted 27 February 2023 1 hour ago, ozleicester said: Pages of discussion about use/meaning/impact of words...based around the use of the word "woke" If you realise a word you are using may cause hurt or harm to another.. stop using it. Some words are unequivocally wrong and their use conveys a strong sentiment aimed at discrimination. Then there are all the other mots du jour which individuals have decided they’re going to get bent out of shape over. The issue isn’t the words, if they are getting triggered by a word the issue is something much deeper. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon the Hat Posted 27 February 2023 Share Posted 27 February 2023 5 minutes ago, Daggers said: Some words are unequivocally wrong and their use conveys a strong sentiment aimed at discrimination. Then there are all the other mots du jour which individuals have decided they’re going to get bent out of shape over. The issue isn’t the words, if they are getting triggered by a word the issue is something much deeper. I will accept Daggers has addressed this in a more grown up way that I did. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The People's Hero Posted 27 February 2023 Share Posted 27 February 2023 (edited) There is a definite correlation between the inclination or drive to ‘virtue signal’ and the likelihood of being triggered by a word. Part of the problem is that social media has given anyone a platform even those that it really doesn’t help in terms of mentality and happiness to have that platform. Just because the stage is there it doesn’t mean you’ve gotta jump on it and preach or get yourself worked up about something just because you have to have that content otherwise someone might think you don’t have virtue. Always remember, the amount of people who think you have virtue is its own reward. Being truly virtuous (when no one can see) is for mugs; it’s wasted potential headlines and likes. Level of wokeness can arguably be an indicator of how far in to this system of BS someone has fallen. People are even positively describing themselves as woke now ( which is a sure sign they cannot or will not engage in sensible debate or attempt to understand nuance - ‘straight to the extreme; it cannot fail’ ! ) Edited 27 February 2023 by The People's Hero Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Captain... Posted 27 February 2023 Popular Post Share Posted 27 February 2023 16 minutes ago, The People's Hero said: There is a definite correlation between the inclination or drive to ‘virtue signal’ and the likelihood of being triggered by a word. Part of the problem is that social media has given anyone a platform even those that it really doesn’t help in terms of mentality and happiness to have that platform. Just because the stage is there it doesn’t mean you’ve gotta jump on it and preach or get yourself worked up about something just because you have to have that content otherwise someone might think you don’t have virtue. Always remember, the amount of people who think you have virtue is its own reward. Being truly virtuous (when no one can see) is for mugs; it’s wasted potential headlines and likes. Level of wokeness can arguably be an indicator of how far in to this system of BS someone has fallen. People are even positively describing themselves as woke now ( which is a sure sign they cannot or will not engage in sensible debate or attempt to understand nuance - ‘straight to the extreme; it cannot fail’ ! ) Why wouldn't people positively describe themselves as woke? It's a positive word about being kind and caring. Aware of social issues and how what you say and do can impact others particularly minorities. It's this demonising of the word woke and values that I find bizarre. Even more bizarre is people positively describing themselves as anti-woke. I get it that certain elements of extreme wokeishness are at best annoying and at worst very damaging, but the principles behind the word/philosophy are still sound. When you hear politicians declaring a war on woke, a war on kind and inclusive language and behaviour, it just shows you how backwards and divisive this manufactured culture war is. 4 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leicsmac Posted 27 February 2023 Share Posted 27 February 2023 1 hour ago, Jon the Hat said: I will accept Daggers has addressed this in a more grown up way that I did. I remember his remarkable takedown of some never-do-well who called him out for a fight on the Leicester section of the forum. It was brilliant, I think there was cream teas mentioned somewhere. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The People's Hero Posted 27 February 2023 Share Posted 27 February 2023 2 minutes ago, Captain... said: Why wouldn't people positively describe themselves as woke? It's a positive word about being kind and caring. Aware of social issues and how what you say and do can impact others particularly minorities. It's this demonising of the word woke and values that I find bizarre. Even more bizarre is people positively describing themselves as anti-woke. I get it that certain elements of extreme wokeishness are at best annoying and at worst very damaging, but the principles behind the word/philosophy are still sound. When you hear politicians declaring a war on woke, a war on kind and inclusive language and behaviour, it just shows you how backwards and divisive this manufactured culture war is. We didn’t need the word ‘woke’ to mean ‘kind’. We already had the word ‘kind’ and the word ‘caring’. No one is against people being kind or caring. those who describe themselves as woke are those who generally : - jump to and adopt extreme positions - are blinkered and unwilling to consider context, nuance, and the involvement/relevance of issues which aren’t specifically in their laser focus - in an echo chamber with other white-knight woke geniuses - often anything but kind and caring to simplify - keep the kind and caring but (even behind closed doors) remove the blinkers and the shouting and the pantomime stuff and generally shed the ridiculous parts of being woke and everyone is happier. that won’t work though as the appeal to so many is just being on the stage and shouting loudest and holier than thou and signalling virtue. kind and caring = good signalling being kind and caring whilst actually possibly being anything but and white knighting and virtue signalling and actually de-railing any debate by dismissing nuance and disagreement as ‘anti-virtue’ = unhelpful and bad can we agree on the above ? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain... Posted 27 February 2023 Share Posted 27 February 2023 6 hours ago, Jon the Hat said: I think you mean 50. 30 years ago I was a teenager and this was unacceptable. My reaction to your post is a bit more nuanced, I would never use the word crazy to describe someone who has or appeared to have a mental illness. I would consider the word has moved on from that to be a more general term for wild behaviour not related to mental illness. I would certainly listen if there was a significant push to avoid it. Shows like rising damp and love thy neighbour were still broadcast in full with terms like coloured and worse not edited out. Whilst it was on the way out it was still regularly used and repeated in the 80s and early 90s (I wasn't quite a teenager but I heard it plenty of times). Whilst it may have been officially classed as offensive by then it was still regularly used and that's the point, it takes time for words to go out of use not so long ago Alan Hansen referred to coloured footballers. Not in a racist way, he was just looking fora term for people of colour and his brain found that one. Ethnic minorities might have been a better example, that was the PC term for a while until that became offensive and now it is people of colour (which to me is just as problematic as coloured, but it's what's been settled on). The point is about the evolution of language and how we react to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain... Posted 27 February 2023 Share Posted 27 February 2023 4 minutes ago, The People's Hero said: We didn’t need the word ‘woke’ to mean ‘kind’. We already had the word ‘kind’ and the word ‘caring’. No one is against people being kind or caring. those who describe themselves as woke are those who generally : - jump to and adopt extreme positions - are blinkered and unwilling to consider context, nuance, and the involvement/relevance of issues which aren’t specifically in their laser focus - in an echo chamber with other white-knight woke geniuses - often anything but kind and caring to simplify - keep the kind and caring but (even behind closed doors) remove the blinkers and the shouting and the pantomime stuff and generally shed the ridiculous parts of being woke and everyone is happier. that won’t work though as the appeal to so many is just being on the stage and shouting loudest and holier than thou and signalling virtue. kind and caring = good signalling being kind and caring whilst actually possibly being anything but and white knighting and virtue signalling and actually de-railing any debate by dismissing nuance and disagreement as ‘anti-virtue’ = unhelpful and bad can we agree on the above ? Woke is not just kind and caring, it is largely about understanding of issues and trying to actively use better language. Virtue signalling = bad Preaching = bad Cancel culture = bad They are not woke, they are at best woke adjacent, being woke is about understanding social issues and looking at how your own language and behaviour can impact others and trying to be better yourself. Obviously there are those who take it to extremes and those that bang on about it constantly, like anything. That doesn't stop the principles being based in good intentions and kindness. I just find it so bizarre how these terms, like political correctness, or green get twisted into negatives when they should be a force for good. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HighPeakFox Posted 27 February 2023 Share Posted 27 February 2023 This has made for good reading, thank you all. My take on this is that wokeness has had its meaning muddied and conflated and warped, and that it has been a deliberate act by those that would rather do harm and be divisive, in order to try and level the argumentative playing field by saying 'look, you've as many loons as we do, therefore we're all as bad as one another'. It is very much the same reductive process as will happen with a politician such as Corbyn, where (whatever your politics are) the focus becomes about demonising the thing with meaningless accusations of being (shock horror) Socialist, when so many people do not really know what the accusation truly means, but it becomes weaponised all the same. In a sad irony, the same becomes true about anti-semitism (which Corbyn has been absurdly accused of and will never shake off - and please spare me about how the Labour Party have acted latterly as though that proved it true). People have been so frightened that they might have accidentally said something wrong on this subject (and I have lost Jewish friends over this) and there is just no rowing back, they simply cannot see that no 2 people have the same definition, and therefore they just dismiss me for not adhering to their somewhat cancelling position over anything regarding Jews and Jewishness - they know better than me and sneer at me for not following their perceived majority view, a very sad situation from a people so often isolated in a tiny minority. I might add, for nuance, that I have some Jewish background in my family. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClaphamFox Posted 27 February 2023 Share Posted 27 February 2023 13 minutes ago, Captain... said: Woke is not just kind and caring, it is largely about understanding of issues and trying to actively use better language. Virtue signalling = bad Preaching = bad Cancel culture = bad They are not woke, they are at best woke adjacent, being woke is about understanding social issues and looking at how your own language and behaviour can impact others and trying to be better yourself. Obviously there are those who take it to extremes and those that bang on about it constantly, like anything. That doesn't stop the principles being based in good intentions and kindness. I just find it so bizarre how these terms, like political correctness, or green get twisted into negatives when they should be a force for good. I suspect it's because the lines between 'good intentions and kindness' on the one hand, and authoritarian preaching/virtue-signalling on the other, are very blurred. Certainly on social media, many of those who are considered 'woke' tend to lean heavily towards being very preachy, smug and dogmatic. Your definition of woke is much more benign, but it doesn't really reflect the reality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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