Also in the News - Part 2

[Foxdiamond]

2 minutes ago, grobyfox1990 said:

Agreed. I support what Lineker said (even excusing my Leicester bias) but pointing readers down the track towards the Nazis and the current Govt is ill-thought out. Even if what he TECHNICALLY!!!!!!!!!! said is true, substance over form in this case, we know what the average person is going to think when you compare something to 1930s Germany, without trying to find loopholes.

Lineker is not responsible for others lack of knowledge.

[leicsmac]

5 minutes ago, grobyfox1990 said:

Agreed. I support what Lineker said (even excusing my Leicester bias) but pointing readers down the track towards the Nazis and the current Govt is ill-thought out. Even if what he TECHNICALLY!!!!!!!!!! said is true, substance over form in this case, we know what the average person is going to think when you compare something to 1930s Germany, without trying to find loopholes.

So it's a dog-whistle even though it's factually accurate?

 

That's an interesting paradox.

 

1 minute ago, kenny said:

Just that I hope we aren't close to signing laws that marginalise particular races.

 

Also that Mein Kampf was written in the 1920's and pre-dates the 'language that is not dissimilar to that used by Germany in the 30'.

 

My hope is that GL is incorrect in his tweet and we haven't ended up in the place he implies.

Thanks for the clarification.

 

I would of course wholeheartedly agree and also think that the more people call out laws that could well develop into things like that, the less chance they have of happening.

[leicsmac]

2 minutes ago, Foxdiamond said:

Lineker is not responsible for others lack of knowledge.

Hmmm...while I would agree, the same argument has been used by some much less savoury individuals in order to justify the dog-whistles that they've come up with where the insinuation is enough.

[Foxdiamond]

5 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

Hmmm...while I would agree, the same argument has been used by some much less savoury individuals in order to justify the dog-whistles that they've come up with where the insinuation is enough.

What I take from Lineker's comment is that things start with language and can progress from there. I am not suggesting a British government would do this but some on far right here would be happy if things did

[leicsmac]

18 minutes ago, Foxdiamond said:

What I take from Lineker's comment is that things start with language and can progress from there. I am not suggesting a British government would do this but some on far right here would be happy if things did

Yeah, I'm totally with you there.

 

I just don't want to resort to the same inference-related arguments regarding "that's not what he actually said" that those who would like to see such things progress from language would also use.

[Zear0]

This the problem with Twitter, how do you condense and adequately articulate paralells between the rise of Nazism and their government to to specific aspects of current government policies in 280 charcters?  You literally can't and therefore simple statements like "This is just an immeasurably cruel policy directed at the most vulnerable people in language that is not dissimilar to that used by Germany in the '30s, and I'm out of order?" can be construed in so many ways you end up with both sides of the divide shouting foul as we've seen.

 

I personally agree with what he's said for a variety of reasons and I'm finally going in here as all I've read is the usual "left/right" argument that irritates me frankly almost as much of the culture war "debates".

 

To lay some groundwork I went onto the ONS for some figures (https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/populationandmigration/internationalmigration/bulletins/longterminternationalmigrationprovisional/yearendingjune2022#immigration-to-the-uk) as I wanted to be sure I wasn't talking my usual rubbish.  That report states "In the year ending (YE) June 2022, long-term immigration into the UK was estimated at around 1.1 million. This is an estimated increase of 435,000 compared with the YE June 2021 (628,000)."  It also states "Recent irregular migration arriving via clandestine means, including the estimated 35,000 people arriving by small boats in year ending June 2022, the majority of which apply for asylum."

 

I understand the concerns regarding excessive migration.  Impact on services, cost to the taxpayer (I disagree personally as everything I've read tells me migrants are net contributors but for the purpose of this rant I won't go there) and the societal issues such as ghettoisation and a perceives impact on "native (again, given the UKs history, this is a laughable point)" culture.  So therefore, if any of the preceeding is something you disagree with, I do understand even if I personally believe the benefits outweighs the detriments.

 

But look at the numbers, 1.1 million people coming in against 35,000 people coming in by small boats.  It is a drop in the ocean compared to the totality of migration.  Further to this, the people using small boats are making this journey on the basis of seeking asylum, and according to The Refugee Council, 75% are sucessful.  So let's be cruel and put the 25% of failures as people abusing the system, that's 8,750.  Compared to 1.1 million, is that really the nations biggest problem right now?  It has been said so often it pains me to write it, but for a lot of people, this is the only way to claim asylum here.  Again, "why here?" has been done to death and I cba.

 

Migration has increased every year since 2013 and yet somehow this government is absolved of being at fault for not reducing this despite it being "their priority (Sunak said this on Tuesday)".  So what are they doing?  They refer to these peope as "invaders" and the immigration system is "broken".  Sunak on Tuesday said in The Commons "Stopping the boats is not just my priority, it's the people's priority".  No Rishi, it isn't our priority.  Also, at no point do any of this lot claim that stopping the crossings is to save lives of those making the trip, it's to throw red meat to the anti-immigrant brigade who are blind to actual migration figures and an inept Home Office to detract solely from a failing economy, health service, s**t show of imnplementing the "Brexit Benefits", cronyism and corruption in government and god knows what else they're messing up this week.

 

The above was a preface to the point I'm trying to make on the comparisons between what they're doing here and what happened in Germany in the 1930s.  For those who havn't done so, I strongly encourage you to read The Origins of Totalitarinism by Hannah Arendt as it's split into several essays covering Nazism and Stalinism.  The control this government has on the media is frightening.  The Mail, Telegraph, Express, The Sun and The Times are mouthpieces of the government who are going more and more to the right.  If you look at independant news organisation on TV, what exists?  TalkUK and GB News.  Where is the opposition equivalent to these mouth pieces?  They simply don't exist.  There are left leaning publications, but they're a significant minority in terms of readership.  One of the first things Goebbels did was to control the majority of the media (sound familiar?).  Whilst I will state categroically that these aren't state controled, they're so aligned the effects on the population are the same.  The other thing that is relevant to the Tweet was the slow drip feed propoganda to dehumanise individuals so that they could be blamed for any failings of the Nazi government.  Babies are literally washing up these shores, people are being locked up in camps not deemed suitable for inhabitation and people's indifference to this is a consequence of this propoganda which comes from our own goverenment who doesn't treat these crossers as human beings.

 

The only genuinely independent news organisation we have is the BBC in this country.  I can already hear the cry of "bunch of bloody lefty leaning", but they are.  The problem for this government is that they're so inept that reporting on them appears biased against them as there's practically zero news from them to report that shows them in a positive light.  Reporting on Partygate, Chris Fincher, evacuation of Afghanistan, Boris' cash for jobs, giving gongs to his dad, re-instating sacked ministers within days, dumping shit in our rivers isn't being impartial, it's reporting on facts and identifies the staggering ineptitude.  It's classic that instead of answering genuine concerns with the recent Small Boats bill, they just attack people (Gary Lineker lol) rather than provide a response against issues with the bill.

 

Clause 14 was introduced in Nazi Germany making sure to omit anything “calculated to weaken the strength of the Reich abroad or at home."  Here in the UK, BBC be critical of Qatar as part of scheduled broadcast output in the BBC's name? Go for it!  A freelance sports presented being critical of the government on f**king Twitter?  Suspended.

 

It's such a lazy and ignorant view to say that comparing anything to 1930s Germany therefore compares it directly to The Holocaust.  The whole debate is a disgusting smoke shield to their ineptitude and it's infuriating it's distracted from the actual issue which is the illegal and unworkable policy these clowns will sadly pass tonight.

Edited 13 March 2023 by Zear0

[grobyfox1990]

1 hour ago, Foxdiamond said:

Lineker is not responsible for others lack of knowledge.

 

1 hour ago, leicsmac said:

So it's a dog-whistle even though it's factually accurate?

 

That's an interesting paradox.

 

Thanks for the clarification.

 

I would of course wholeheartedly agree and also think that the more people call out laws that could well develop into things like that, the less chance they have of happening.

Others' 'lack of knowledge' is not an excuse. By bringing 1930s Germany into any conversation to describe an organisation, you know exactly what sort of comparison the man on the Clapham omnibus is going to make, Lineker has to take responsibility for that.

 

The same argument can be made to support the Govt. They've not TECHNICALLY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! said they want to kick all migrants out to appease their right-wing Brexit supporting voter base. If you accusing the Govt of doing just that, you have a lack of knowledge in your book.

[grobyfox1990]

22 minutes ago, Zear0 said:

This the problem with Twitter, how do you condense and adequately articulate paralells between the rise of Nazism and their government to to specific aspects of current government policies in 280 charcters?  You literally can't and therefore simple statements like "This is just an immeasurably cruel policy directed at the most vulnerable people in language that is not dissimilar to that used by Germany in the '30s, and I'm out of order?" can be construed in so many ways you end up with both sides of the divide shouting foul as we've seen.

 

 

You can't - that's not what Twitter is for. He has made a statement containing 280 or less characters that is open to a whole range of conclusions for which the end user can argue amongst themselves about. That is exactly what has happened. Great

[leicsmac]

1 minute ago, grobyfox1990 said:

 

Others' 'lack of knowledge' is not an excuse. By bringing 1930s Germany into any conversation to describe an organisation, you know exactly what sort of comparison the man on the Clapham omnibus is going to make, Lineker has to take responsibility for that.

 

The same argument can be made to support the Govt. They've not TECHNICALLY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! said they want to kick all migrants out to appease their right-wing Brexit supporting voter base. If you accusing the Govt of doing just that, you have a lack of knowledge in your book.

Right, hence me being leery about using the same argument.

 

However, purely dispassionately, at least some of the factual parallels are reasonably salient and that's worth drawing attention to, even if the method and framing of communication has to be considered very, very carefully - perhaps more carefully than Lineker did.

[Foxdiamond]

3 minutes ago, grobyfox1990 said:

 

Others' 'lack of knowledge' is not an excuse. By bringing 1930s Germany into any conversation to describe an organisation, you know exactly what sort of comparison the man on the Clapham omnibus is going to make, Lineker has to take responsibility for that.

 

The same argument can be made to support the Govt. They've not TECHNICALLY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! said they want to kick all migrants out to appease their right-wing Brexit supporting voter base. If you accusing the Govt of doing just that, you have a lack of knowledge in your book.

I would suggest the man on the bus check things out if taking an interest in a tweet. I've not accused government of anything. I suspect those supporting the blue party rather than the blue club got the hump with Gary because it was a criticism. 

[grobyfox1990]

13 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

Right, hence me being leery about using the same argument.

 

However, purely dispassionately, at least some of the factual parallels are reasonably salient and that's worth drawing attention to, even if the method and framing of communication has to be considered very, very carefully - perhaps more carefully than Lineker did.

Exactly agreed, his points make sense but in my book they fall into the 'must try harder to get your point across to the man on the Clapham omnibus' test. Not saying he's wrong, but he has to understand he's not acted perfectly in this case.

 

9 minutes ago, Foxdiamond said:

I would suggest the man on the bus check things out if taking an interest in a tweet. I've not accused government of anything. I suspect those supporting the blue party rather than the blue club got the hump with Gary because it was a criticism. 

Dude the whole point of the man on the bus analogy is that they should not have to check things out, it's up to the user to make their point understandable and transparent without the man having to educate themselves further. If I started discussing diverting corporate profits through a trust fund in Cayman to you, I guarantee the first thing you'd think is 'tax cheats' Not true at all, how would you react if I sneered to you to go and educate yourself?

Not directly accusing you of bad-mouthing the Govt, I typed 'you' as a general term

 

[Foxdiamond]

6 minutes ago, grobyfox1990 said:

Exactly agreed, his points make sense but in my book they fall into the 'must try harder to get your point across to the man on the Clapham omnibus' test. Not saying he's wrong, but he has to understand he's not acted perfectly in this case.

 

Dude the whole point of the man on the bus analogy is that they should not have to check things out, it's up to the user to make their point understandable and transparent without the man having to educate themselves further. If I started discussing diverting corporate profits through a trust fund in Cayman to you, I guarantee the first thing you'd think is 'tax cheats' Not true at all, how would you react if I sneered to you to go and educate yourself?

Not directly accusing you of bad-mouthing the Govt, I typed 'you' as a general term

 

I doubt the man on the bus was as worried as the Tory MPs  were about the tweet anyway. If anyone was tweeting about your Cayman trust fund story and I was interested I would try and find out more to see if anything in it. 

[Captain...]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-64939558

Tiny data centre used to heat public swimming pool.

 

Loving this sort of symbiotic thinking, maybe there is hope...

[StanSP]

 

[st albans fox]

7 minutes ago, StanSP said:

 

she needs to be in  a secure hospital unit - anyone capable of beating themselves up with a hammer isn't sane

[Zear0]

3 hours ago, Captain... said:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-64939558

Tiny data centre used to heat public swimming pool.

 

Loving this sort of symbiotic thinking, maybe there is hope...

It's not a new thing, but is something massively overlooked in most power and electrical systems. It's called cogeneration and is used to increase the 2nd order efficiency of a system. Sadly most people measure system efficiency on 1st order principals which is inadequate. 

 

Many years ago, when I was a young Mech Eng student, my final year project ended in me drilling holes in the engine block of the on-site power generation unit. We hooked up the bore holes to the buildings hot water system and voila, "free" hot water. Should add we made sure the engine block could handle it first. The article is a good example though now that data centers are everywhere and the waste heat they produce is enormous. 

 

Slight tangent, but solar panels work better when cooler. Some of the new panels have water cooling attached which can connect to domestic hot water systems. You get more efficient pv panels and top up the water system with waste heat.

 

Great stuff. 

[Tommy G]

Sunak has been contacted by police after his dog spotted off the lead at Hyde park. What ridiculous world are we living in

[Foxdiamond]

24 minutes ago, Tommy G said:

Sunak has been contacted by police after his dog spotted off the lead at Hyde park. What ridiculous world are we living in

Not bothered who the dog belongs to but dog should have been on a lead so owner can't complain. Of course police have more important duties but then again there has been large increase in number of dog attacks resulting in serious injuries etc

[Parafox]

29 minutes ago, Tommy G said:

Sunak has been contacted by police after his dog spotted off the lead at Hyde park. What ridiculous world are we living in

How did the complainant know it was Sunak's dog?

[Facecloth]

25 minutes ago, Tommy G said:

Sunak has been contacted by police after his dog spotted off the lead at Hyde park. What ridiculous world are we living in

Thing is if that's the rules then people need to follow it. If it was me or you it's unlikely that someone would contact the police, but if they caught us they'd likely pull us up on it. But if you're extremely famous, like say the PM, you know some dickhead is gonna spot you a throw you under a bus. You're held you higher standard, so you really have to watch what you're doing. 

[Tommy G]

3 minutes ago, Facecloth said:

Thing is if that's the rules then people need to follow it. If it was me or you it's unlikely that someone would contact the police, but if they caught us they'd likely pull us up on it. But if you're extremely famous, like say the PM, you know some dickhead is gonna spot you a throw you under a bus. You're held you higher standard, so you really have to watch what you're doing. 

I just think it’s a ridiculous waste of police resource. Is a yellow lab not a banned breed! Police are apparently overstretched yet have the time to do this. Makes me chuckle. If you look at dog attacks 95% of the time is down to the breed or the carelessness of the owner 

[Tommy G]

6 minutes ago, Parafox said:

How did the complainant know it was Sunak's dog?

Camera phone 

[Foxdiamond]

4 minutes ago, Tommy G said:

I just think it’s a ridiculous waste of police resource. Is a yellow lab not a banned breed! Police are apparently overstretched yet have the time to do this. Makes me chuckle. If you look at dog attacks 95% of the time is down to the breed or the carelessness of the owner 

Plenty of dogs not on banned list cause serious bites including labs. The owner was careless to let it off the lead in park where not allowed. 

[Tommy G]

Great news in the budget - 30 hours free childcare for 1 and 2 years olds (currently 3+ only) 

 

Shame it wasn’t a few years ago would have saved me thousands 😂 well overdue and pleased for anyone that will benefit from it. 

[Tommy G]

3 minutes ago, Foxdiamond said:

Plenty of dogs not on banned list cause serious bites including labs. The owner was careless to let it off the lead in park where not allowed. 

I’m sure there is I’m citing the majority of cases here - shame you don’t get that. Anyhow my lab is soft as sh*t - doesn’t even bark at the postman 😂