Also in the News - Part 2

[Tommy G]

UBS have paid sweet fa in banking terms for Credit Suisse compared to its own book value - I’m guessing that means they have some shoddy assets. This will not end well and will be part of a new global banking crisis. 

[Jon the Hat]

2 hours ago, Tommy G said:

UBS have paid sweet fa in banking terms for Credit Suisse compared to its own book value - I’m guessing that means they have some shoddy assets. This will not end well and will be part of a new global banking crisis. 

$2Bn vs $55Bn plus share price in December.  Crazy.  How in the name of god are we here again?

[ozleicester]

But but.. bankers are geniuses, worth being paid millions

[Jon the Hat]

A bit shocked by the AU media coverage of the Let women speak event in Melbourne.  Literal Nazis turned up to counter protest ANTIFA, the Trans rights mob say "look the Nazis support the Female organisers" and the media buys it without question.  Utter nonsense.  Shameful.  Even the Liberal party of Victoria bought it.  What a joke.

[leicsmac]

5 minutes ago, Jon the Hat said:

A bit shocked by the AU media coverage of the Let women speak event in Melbourne.  Literal Nazis turned up to counter protest ANTIFA, the Trans rights mob say "look the Nazis support the Female organisers" and the media buys it without question.  Utter nonsense.  Shameful.  Even the Liberal party of Victoria bought it.  What a joke.

....the neo-Nazis said themselves, in no uncertain terms that they were "protecting" the organisers of the event from the "Antifa mob".

 

Now, they could be lying and I'm sure no one sane wants the support of such people, but things are what they are.

[ozleicester]

24 minutes ago, Jon the Hat said:

A bit shocked by the AU media coverage of the Let women speak event in Melbourne.  Literal Nazis turned up to counter protest ANTIFA, the Trans rights mob say "look the Nazis support the Female organisers" and the media buys it without question.  Utter nonsense.  Shameful.  Even the Liberal party of Victoria bought it.  What a joke.

You mean the Liberal Party who today kicked out one of their members because she is a Nazi and helped arrange the protest.

FFS when you are on the same side as LITERAL NAZIS.. you should be questioning your position.

 

Edited 20 March 2023 by ozleicester

[leicsmac]

13 minutes ago, Jon the Hat said:

$2Bn vs $55Bn plus share price in December.  Crazy.  How in the name of god are we here again?

Because evidently too many people in high places are aware of the cost of everything and the value of nothing, and it keeps coming back to bite them.

[leicsmac]

On this topic, the movies Margin Call, The Big Short and Boiler Room are all excellent in demonstrating how things can go horribly wrong.

[ozleicester]

18 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

....the neo-Nazis said themselves, in no uncertain terms that they were "protecting" the organisers of the event from the "Antifa mob".

 

Now, they could be lying and I'm sure no one sane wants the support of such people, but things are what they are.

There have been 4 previous protests against this hatemonger around Australia,, my daughter and her 3 year old attended one in complete safety, there was no real trouble, the police had managed to ensured the hatemonger to was able to spread her message of hate.

In Melbourne..The Nazis were allowed, even encouraged to walk the streets throwing nazi salutes and attempt to attack the trans rights protesters. 

Edited 20 March 2023 by ozleicester

[Jon the Hat]

23 minutes ago, ozleicester said:

There have been 4 previous protests against this hatemonger around Australia,, my daughter and her 3 year old attended one in complete safety, there was no real trouble, the police had managed to ensured the hatemonger to was able to spread her message of hate.

In Melbourne..The Nazis were allowed, even encouraged to walk the streets throwing nazi salutes and attempt to attack the trans rights protesters. 

Indeed, and who let them?  The police did a decent job of protecting the women speakers against the TRAs, but for some reason let the Nazis wander in.  Bizarre.

 

33 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

....the neo-Nazis said themselves, in no uncertain terms that they were "protecting" the organisers of the event from the "Antifa mob".

 

Now, they could be lying and I'm sure no one sane wants the support of such people, but things are what they are.

Exactly, they came because ANTIFA where there, nothing to do with the Let Women Speak organizers or speakers.  As noted there had been no issues at the several speaking events around Australia, so there was no basis for them needing protection.  When a protestor did get through, the organizers security removed them.

 

On a wider note, the idea that because you happen to have a point of agreement with a neo- nazi group doesn't actually make you nazis.  Presumably said Nazis also believe in gravity, that the earth is round as well as whatever hateful crap they are trying to infer about the trans community.  Are they racist homophobic extremists?  Of course.  Lots of lesbians spoke, and they certainly are not aligned with homophonic men.

 

 

[Jon the Hat]

39 minutes ago, ozleicester said:

You mean the Liberal Party who today kicked out one of their members because she is a Nazi and helped arrange the protest.

FFS when you are on the same side as LITERAL NAZIS.. you should be questioning your position.

I am sure you are not suggesting that anyone doesn't think paedos need stopping, but beyond that I am not sure you have any evidence whatsoever that Nazis have any alignment with the organisers.  Them turning up is not alignment.  You think they support womens rights?. Lesbians?  I seriously doubt it.  Put aside your fervent belief that the rights of men dressed as women are somehow more important that actual women, and think about what you are saying.

[leicsmac]

10 minutes ago, Jon the Hat said:

Exactly, they came because ANTIFA where there, nothing to do with the Let Women Speak organizers or speakers.  As noted there had been no issues at the several speaking events around Australia, so there was no basis for them needing protection.  When a protestor did get through, the organizers security removed them.

 

On a wider note, the idea that because you happen to have a point of agreement with a neo- nazi group doesn't actually make you nazis.  Presumably said Nazis also believe in gravity, that the earth is round as well as whatever hateful crap they are trying to infer about the trans community.  Are they racist homophobic extremists?  Of course.  Lots of lesbians spoke, and they certainly are not aligned with homophonic men.

 

 

A point of agreement on scientific facts like the Earth being round? Absolutely. A point of agreement on social issues to the point they take your side and offer you (unsolicited) "protection"? Might want to reconsider one's viewpoint in that case, IMO.

 

Of course I don't think they directly share values, but the points of views echoed by such Nazis are at the end of the road initially started upon by those people speaking with "legitimate concerns".

Edited 20 March 2023 by leicsmac

[Jon the Hat]

1 minute ago, leicsmac said:

A point of agreement on scientific facts like the Earth being round? Absolutely. A point of agreement on social issues to the point they take your side and offer you (unsolicited) "protection"? Might want to reconsider one's viewpoint in that case, IMO.

 

Of course I don't think they directly share values, but the points of views echoed by such Nazis are at the end of the road initially started upon by those people speaking with "legitimate concerns".

Nonsense, because those legitimate concerns are exactly that.  Agreement on the scientific fact that sex is binary and immutable?  Fine.

[leicsmac]

19 minutes ago, Jon the Hat said:

Nonsense, because those legitimate concerns are exactly that.  Agreement on the scientific fact that sex is binary and immutable?  Fine.

There is no such scientific fact. But that's a matter for another time. 

 

Perhaps it's a slippery slope fallacy, but history shows quite clearly that the ending where a great many innocent people end up exactly as Nazis want them - marginalised, dispossessed and often dead - starts with people voicing "legitimate concerns" about them.

 

Edit: and the Nazis "brave" enough to do what they did in Melbourne know this as well as anyone, hence their "protection".

Edited 20 March 2023 by leicsmac

[Jon the Hat]

I would also say that there appear to be some very suspect people in the TRA mob, but this doesn't mean trans people don't have the right to speak and to live freely as long as that doesn't impact on others rights.  There are no doubt also unsavory people on the GC side whose agendas are not terribly liberal, and that doesn't mean women don't have the right to speak up about their concerns, and to protect their rights.  

[leicsmac]

10 minutes ago, Jon the Hat said:

I would also say that there appear to be some very suspect people in the TRA mob, but this doesn't mean trans people don't have the right to speak and to live freely as long as that doesn't impact on others rights.  There are no doubt also unsavory people on the GC side whose agendas are not terribly liberal, and that doesn't mean women don't have the right to speak up about their concerns, and to protect their rights.  

Well, yes.

 

Hopefully going forward a compromise can be reached that suits and safeguards as many people as possible. The problem, I guess, lies with just how differing opinions are on where exactly that compromise lies.

[ozleicester]

55 minutes ago, Jon the Hat said:

would also say that there appear to be some very suspect people in the TRA mob

Ive accused you of Trumpism in the past.... but the more you say the more justified i feel in saying it.

[Jon the Hat]

32 minutes ago, ozleicester said:

Ive accused you of Trumpism in the past.... but the more you say the more justified i feel in saying it.

I genuinely find it incredible that you can be so dismissive of the risks of the trans movement.  Ignoring the increasing concerns of medical professionals about the "treatments" on offer, not least the overall idea that you can change sex and the failure to ensure appropriate mental health assesments before treatment commences. Ignoring the increasing concerns of gay and lesbian people who don't wish to be associated with the trans lobby as they see the high proportion of gay and lesbian people being encourage though affirmation to ruin their bodies.  Female sports people who are increasingly concerned about men competing as women at all levels of sport.  Women who want single sex spaces, finding the comfort & safety of a tiny number of men to be more important that the comfort and safety of 51% of the population.  How can you not see these are valid concerns that need free and open discussion.  I cannot believe you are daft enough to buy all the trans lobby nonsense, so what is it?  Misogyny?  What?

[leicsmac]

22 minutes ago, Jon the Hat said:

I genuinely find it incredible that you can be so dismissive of the risks of the trans movement.  Ignoring the increasing concerns of medical professionals about the "treatments" on offer, not least the overall idea that you can change sex and the failure to ensure appropriate mental health assesments before treatment commences. Ignoring the increasing concerns of gay and lesbian people who don't wish to be associated with the trans lobby as they see the high proportion of gay and lesbian people being encourage though affirmation to ruin their bodies.  Female sports people who are increasingly concerned about men competing as women at all levels of sport.  Women who want single sex spaces, finding the comfort & safety of a tiny number of men to be more important that the comfort and safety of 51% of the population.  How can you not see these are valid concerns that need free and open discussion.  I cannot believe you are daft enough to buy all the trans lobby nonsense, so what is it?  Misogyny?  What?

To flip this on it's head, it might be found incredible that you can be so dismissive of those looking to co-opt the "concerns" highlighted above and push them to the conclusion they want where trans people don't "exist" (I use that term loosely) at all. That is a possibility both at personal and legislative levels in various places now.

 

So I guess the incredulity is mutual.

[Jon the Hat]

1 hour ago, leicsmac said:

To flip this on it's head, it might be found incredible that you can be so dismissive of those looking to co-opt the "concerns" highlighted above and push them to the conclusion they want where trans people don't "exist" (I use that term loosely) at all. That is a possibility both at personal and legislative levels in various places now.

 

So I guess the incredulity is mutual.

I am not dismissive of those concerns though, and I have no problem with constructive debate.  You must see though that it is not reasonable - to take but one example - to expect women and girls to accept male people in their bathrooms as a response to those male people not being comfortable in mens bathrooms.  How can this make sense?  It is nonsense, and there is mountains of it.  Demanding ridiculous concessions for trans people is not going to improve their lot.  Demanding medical treatment without review or analysis is not acceptable.  Screaming down anyone who tries to debate is not how to go about this.  If anything it will make it harder.

[leicsmac]

49 minutes ago, Jon the Hat said:

I am not dismissive of those concerns though, and I have no problem with constructive debate.  You must see though that it is not reasonable - to take but one example - to expect women and girls to accept male people in their bathrooms as a response to those male people not being comfortable in mens bathrooms.  How can this make sense?  It is nonsense, and there is mountains of it.  Demanding ridiculous concessions for trans people is not going to improve their lot.  Demanding medical treatment without review or analysis is not acceptable.  Screaming down anyone who tries to debate is not how to go about this.  If anything it will make it harder.

The rest of your post *is* being dismissive of the concerns involved, with respect - though I understand you evidently don't see it that way.

 

As per above, hopefully there will come a point where cooler heads (and I include myself as a not-cooler-head on this matter) prevail and a reasonable compromise is reached. Until then, my concern lies with the threat of trans folks being legislated out of existence, as I think that threat is the most salient at the present time and therefore the priority.

[grobyfox1990]

6 hours ago, leicsmac said:

Because evidently too many people in high places are aware of the cost of everything and the value of nothing, and it keeps coming back to bite them.

Granted this is an online football forum where the main purpose is to vent our weekend frustrations, but this isn’t true at all. Banking is a massive confidence hustle, CS lost it. They weren’t given any choice about the sale, have a strong balance sheet but years long worries about their business model, mgt, restructuring made it too risky to let them sort themselves out. High net worths started pulling their money, Saudis refused to invest more, interest rate rises left their loans a bit exposed. CS are far too important to Switzerland and wider ECB stability so action had to come, to suggest it’s a failed bank because of poor mgt is inaccurate 

[Jon the Hat]

1 hour ago, leicsmac said:

The rest of your post *is* being dismissive of the concerns involved, with respect - though I understand you evidently don't see it that way.

 

As per above, hopefully there will come a point where cooler heads (and I include myself as a not-cooler-head on this matter) prevail and a reasonable compromise is reached. Until then, my concern lies with the threat of trans folks being legislated out of existence, as I think that threat is the most salient at the present time and therefore the priority.

Tran folk are not being legislated out of existence!  This is inflamatory nonsense.  People are merely pushing back finally on ridiculous expectations.  Again, please explain to me how using mens bathrooms if you have a penis is legislating you out of existence.  Explain how competing as a man when you have all the benefits of male physiology is legislating you out of existence.  How staying out of single sex spaces is legislating you out of existence?  Trans people are only coming up against resistance when they ask people to accept something which is patently nonsense.

[Nalis]

6 hours ago, leicsmac said:

On this topic, the movies Margin Call, The Big Short and Boiler Room are all excellent in demonstrating how things can go horribly wrong.

Love the first two, never seen Boiler Room so I'll check it out if its similar.

[leicsmac]

1 hour ago, Jon the Hat said:

Tran folk are not being legislated out of existence!  This is inflamatory nonsense.  People are merely pushing back finally on ridiculous expectations.  Again, please explain to me how using mens bathrooms if you have a penis is legislating you out of existence.  Explain how competing as a man when you have all the benefits of male physiology is legislating you out of existence.  How staying out of single sex spaces is legislating you out of existence?  Trans people are only coming up against resistance when they ask people to accept something which is patently nonsense.

.... you're absolutely certain there are no examples of legislation being forwarded and/or considered in OECD countries restricting all access to "gender affirming care" and thus effectively legislating trans people out of existence?

 

.... as certain as the rest of your words here?