leicsmac Posted 23 March 2023 Share Posted 23 March 2023 52 minutes ago, Jon the Hat said: What mates? Like I said, I have nothing in common with the Christian right. And as I said before, the Nazis turning up had nothing to do with the Let women speak even, but to do with the fact ANTIFA were there protesting it. When neo fascists agree with you enough on a social issue to want to defend you (even unsolicited), perhaps a re-examination of said position isn't a bad idea. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marbles Posted 23 March 2023 Share Posted 23 March 2023 11 minutes ago, leicsmac said: When neo fascists agree with you enough on a social issue to want to defend you (even unsolicited), perhaps a re-examination of said position isn't a bad idea. Gotta ask this because you opened the door - if neo fascists suddenly came out and supported trans rights, would you stop supporting it? Probably not. Therefore, why should anyone else let them dictate what position they have 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain... Posted 23 March 2023 Share Posted 23 March 2023 8 minutes ago, marbles said: Gotta ask this because you opened the door - if neo fascists suddenly came out and supported trans rights, would you stop supporting it? Probably not. Therefore, why should anyone else let them dictate what position they have I mean that would never happen, but I get your point. I don't fully agree with the extreme elements of trans rights and the BLM movement, but I still largely support those causes and I have argued against those throwing the baby out with the bath water. Just because there is an extreme version of something associated with something that you largely agree with it doesn't mean you should change your beliefs. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leicsmac Posted 23 March 2023 Share Posted 23 March 2023 (edited) 43 minutes ago, marbles said: Gotta ask this because you opened the door - if neo fascists suddenly came out and supported trans rights, would you stop supporting it? Probably not. Therefore, why should anyone else let them dictate what position they have Yeah, I would agree pretty much with what Cap said above. Which is why I said re-examination as opposed to a complete 180. Edit: however, as Cap also says, the hypothetical is absolutely absurd and would never happen, so I'd be interested in a more realistic scenario. Edited 23 March 2023 by leicsmac 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chapero82 Posted 23 March 2023 Share Posted 23 March 2023 2 hours ago, ozleicester said: He put people ahead of profit. Those who dont benefit from that (especially media and financiers) spent every last breath convicing people that, that was a bad thing. Instead.. congrats you got Boris and the worst economic environment for the working class since the 1920's My thoughts are the same as yours 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dames Posted 23 March 2023 Share Posted 23 March 2023 12 hours ago, st albans fox said: The way he’s set out his stall, the only big problem boris has is his justification that an after work leaving party was essential he’s basically claiming ignorance and I think he could get away with it on that basis. but he’s effectively exposing himself to be lacking in so many areas that he surely loses all credibility anyway I still believe (and always have ) that bojo believes he can come back to leadership before the next GE Thankfully yesterday showed the rest of the world that this will never be the case, his support has been narrowed down the the absolute dregs of the Tory backbenches and besides the Mail and GB News most media outlets also recognise this is the end too. Even that being said you'll notice a shift in tone towards him from the Mail once his honors list gets rejected. Dacre is twerking really really hard for that Lordship and won't be a happy man if Boris blows it. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClaphamFox Posted 23 March 2023 Share Posted 23 March 2023 7 minutes ago, leicsmac said: Yeah, I would agree pretty much with what Cap said above. Which is why I said re-examination as opposed to a complete 180. Edit: however, as Cap also says, the hypothetical is absolutely absurd and would never happen, so I'd be interested in a more realistic scenario. But even the softer 're-examination' doesn't really make much sense. Transgender activists often protest outside venues where people they disagree with are gathering. I've seen footage of those protests and it often involves men who identify as women screaming vile abuse at biological women who are just trying to enter a venue, frequently carrying banners with slogans such as 'Kill all TERFS'. There are also some trans-identifying males who like to expose themselves in women's bathrooms, take selfies and post the evidence on twitter. If the guilt by association argument applies in all cases, does that mean that all transgender folk should 're-examine' their chosen identity because of these violent thugs and perverts? A number of leading Nazis were environmentalists with a passion for animal welfare. Does this mean that anybody who believes in tackling climate change and treating animals kindly should 're-examine' their views? I strongly suspect a (not insubstantial) number of our fellow Leicester fans have pretty hardcore right-wing views - does this mean that the rest of us should 're-examine' our support for the club? No, of course it doesn't because the guilt by association argument is logically absurd. People who believe in separate spaces and categories for biological women are no more responsible for the black-clad Nazi morons than ordinary transgender people are for abusive transgender activists. Suggesting otherwise would be disingenuous, cheap and ultimately counterproductive because if you use it against your opponents they will always end up throwing it back at you. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leicsmac Posted 23 March 2023 Share Posted 23 March 2023 5 minutes ago, ClaphamFox said: But even the softer 're-examination' doesn't really make much sense. Transgender activists often protest outside venues where people they disagree with are gathering. I've seen footage of those protests and it often involves men who identify as women screaming vile abuse at biological women who are just trying to enter a venue, frequently carrying banners with slogans such as 'Kill all TERFS'. There are also some trans-identifying males who like to expose themselves in women's bathrooms, take selfies and post the evidence on twitter. If the guilt by association argument applies in all cases, does that mean that all transgender folk should 're-examine' their chosen identity because of these violent thugs and perverts? If this is true and it becomes an "all other things being equal" matter, then I guess it comes down to a matter of degrees. And I would still maintain, with good reason, that trans people are been harmed more and are at more risk of harm than those currently under the attention of "trans activists". Of course, dealing with both is the optimal way to go, but as I've said before, bigger problem is likely priority problem. 8 minutes ago, ClaphamFox said: A number of leading Nazis were environmentalists with a passion for animal welfare. Does this mean that anybody who believes in tackling climate change and treating animals kindly should 're-examine' their views? I strongly suspect a (not insubstantial) number of our fellow Leicester fans have pretty hardcore right-wing views - does this mean that the rest of us should 're-examine' our support for the club? I would think and hope that if a march/vigil for animal rights or in support of better action on climate change was then offered (unsolicited) protection by obvious Nazis, the people running the gig would either postpone the meet or do something *very* visible before, during and after to distance themselves from them. 12 minutes ago, ClaphamFox said: No, of course it doesn't because the guilt by association argument is logically absurd. People who believe in separate spaces and categories for biological women are no more responsible for the black-clad Nazi morons than ordinary transgender people are for abusive transgender activists. Suggesting otherwise would be disingenuous, cheap and ultimately counterproductive because if you use it against your opponents they will always end up throwing it back at you. I think the two parts above address this adequately, but to reiterate: the guilt by association argument is only absurd when the associated party has done as much as it can to avoid that association, IMO. In any case, this is a pretty highly charged issue and a lot of people have strong opinions on it, including myself, so I have my corner and I'm sticking to it, for the sake of people I know and trust who have come in the for the most horrible abuse simply for the offence of trying to live their lives in their chosen identity and therefore being able to live with themselves (sometimes) too. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg2607 Posted 23 March 2023 Share Posted 23 March 2023 2 hours ago, Jon the Hat said: Corbyn had spent his entire political career showing that he was completely unsuitable to lead much like Boris really. I do think alot of the labour policies were appealing to the masses though (clearly not enough of them) The media painted him to be the 2nd coming of communism, but on reflection which of these manifesto pledges would have been bad? - Do we think we would have been in a worse state as a country than we are now against the back drop of these?? Increase the Health Budget Hold a 2nd Referendum on Brexit Deal Rise Minimum Wage to £10ph Stop State Pension Age Rises Introduce a National Care Service Bring Forward Net Zero Target Nationalise Energy Firms & Water Industries Replace Universal Credit Abolish Private Schools Charitable Status Free Bus Travel for under 25's Build 100,000 Council Homes a Year. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
weller54 Posted 23 March 2023 Share Posted 23 March 2023 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Facecloth Posted 23 March 2023 Share Posted 23 March 2023 Boris has said the party in the garden was a work event to thank the cabinet Secretary who had just resigned. That event actually took place 39 days before the Secretary handed his notice in. If you're gonna be a pathological liar you have to get your stories straight with yourself 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon the Hat Posted 23 March 2023 Share Posted 23 March 2023 3 hours ago, leicsmac said: Yeah, I would agree pretty much with what Cap said above. Which is why I said re-examination as opposed to a complete 180. Edit: however, as Cap also says, the hypothetical is absolutely absurd and would never happen, so I'd be interested in a more realistic scenario. How about a realistic scenario where said neo-nazis are also racist and homophobic, but you are trying to tell us you honestly believe they were there to support the women speaking, who included a number of black women and lesbians. Even when said neo-nazis have been quoted condemning the organiser. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon the Hat Posted 23 March 2023 Share Posted 23 March 2023 2 hours ago, Greg2607 said: I do think alot of the labour policies were appealing to the masses though (clearly not enough of them) The media painted him to be the 2nd coming of communism, but on reflection which of these manifesto pledges would have been bad? - Do we think we would have been in a worse state as a country than we are now against the back drop of these?? Increase the Health Budget Hold a 2nd Referendum on Brexit Deal Rise Minimum Wage to £10ph Stop State Pension Age Rises Introduce a National Care Service Bring Forward Net Zero Target Nationalise Energy Firms & Water Industries Replace Universal Credit Abolish Private Schools Charitable Status Free Bus Travel for under 25's Build 100,000 Council Homes a Year. On an individual basis most of them hold some appeal and are hard to argue with, but collectively they were an economic disaster waiting to happen. There is no way we would have been able to carry these out, and people could see that I think. Those I bolded I wouldn't agree with as I don't believe Labour's estimated benefits. What makes you think the market reaction to these would have been any better than the reaction to Liz Truss' unfunded commitments? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon the Hat Posted 23 March 2023 Share Posted 23 March 2023 2 hours ago, leicsmac said: I would think and hope that if a march/vigil for animal rights or in support of better action on climate change was then offered (unsolicited) protection by obvious Nazis, the people running the gig would either postpone the meet or do something *very* visible before, during and after to distance themselves from them. Except these women are well used to men turning up to disrupt their speeches, they are absolutely not going to stop as a result. They have indeed denied all association, but you are not listening, and neither are the media. Almost like you want to believe the utter nonsense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leicsmac Posted 23 March 2023 Share Posted 23 March 2023 (edited) 21 minutes ago, Jon the Hat said: How about a realistic scenario where said neo-nazis are also racist and homophobic, but you are trying to tell us you honestly believe they were there to support the women speaking, who included a number of black women and lesbians. Even when said neo-nazis have been quoted condemning the organiser. This would be speculative, but a logical explanation would be that the Nazis simply used the women involved because they agree with them on this particular point, and also to go after a "softer" target,and also for the PR ("hey, we actually do support women's rights in this case!") that would result from it. Of course they likely view the black women and lesbians in the gathering with as much contempt as they do trans folks, but it's hardly the first time such people would "use" a more disadvantaged group to attack another, is it? Such people, when they took power, divided the population before they started marginalising and doing more dreadful things to them. 13 minutes ago, Jon the Hat said: Except these women are well used to men turning up to disrupt their speeches, they are absolutely not going to stop as a result. They have indeed denied all association, but you are not listening, and neither are the media. Almost like you want to believe the utter nonsense. It is a matter of fact that at least some of this group of women and the Nazis view the trans issue identically and simply do not think trans people can or should exist. The Nazis want them dead because they think they shouldn't exist, the people at this gathering want them back in the closet as the gender they were assigned at birth because they think they "scientifically" (and I use that terms as loosely as possible) can't. Either way, no longer existing. That is not nonsense, that is a simple matter of record. Of course they can and should deny all association, but perhaps more might be done to distance those stances described above. Edited 23 March 2023 by leicsmac Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tommy Fresh Posted 23 March 2023 Share Posted 23 March 2023 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Otis Posted 23 March 2023 Share Posted 23 March 2023 2 hours ago, Greg2607 said: I do think alot of the labour policies were appealing to the masses though (clearly not enough of them) The media painted him to be the 2nd coming of communism, but on reflection which of these manifesto pledges would have been bad? - Do we think we would have been in a worse state as a country than we are now against the back drop of these?? Increase the Health Budget Hold a 2nd Referendum on Brexit Deal Rise Minimum Wage to £10ph Stop State Pension Age Rises Introduce a National Care Service Bring Forward Net Zero Target Nationalise Energy Firms & Water Industries Replace Universal Credit Abolish Private Schools Charitable Status Free Bus Travel for under 25's Build 100,000 Council Homes a Year. Ahhh.... the magic money tree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmt Posted 23 March 2023 Share Posted 23 March 2023 13 minutes ago, Otis said: Ahhh.... the magic money tree. Is that the one the tories found during covid? 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leicsmac Posted 23 March 2023 Share Posted 23 March 2023 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-65035041 Imagine billions of people not being just short of water, but actually with no access to it at all. What then? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunge Posted 23 March 2023 Share Posted 23 March 2023 6 minutes ago, bmt said: Is that the one the tories found during covid? That’s the one. Although probably more accurately described as the magic debt/inflation tree. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg2607 Posted 23 March 2023 Share Posted 23 March 2023 26 minutes ago, Otis said: Ahhh.... the magic money tree. by the same token.... Increase the Health Budget - Tories have allegedly done this.... Hold a 2nd Referendum on Brexit Deal (most people will agree that Brexit has been a disaster, so wouldn't we have wanted a say on the deal before it was agreed??) Rise Minimum Wage to £10ph - Tories have done this.... Stop State Pension Age Rises (Hunt has literally just done this) Introduce a National Care Service - Tories didn't QUITE do this.... but the raise in NI was meant to pay for it before it was reversed Bring Forward Net Zero Target Nationalise Energy Firms & Water Industries - Starmer has highlighted a back door way to do this.... create a national green energy firm...... either way, i think we can all agree that the state owned energy companies on the continent has kept other countries energy bills lower than ours... Replace Universal Credit Abolish Private Schools Charitable Status - Wouldn't have cost the tax payer anything. Free Bus Travel for under 25's Build 100,000 Council Homes a Year - The country is desperate for more social housing and this would then deliver an income to the government for generations ahead rather than it sitting with Private Social Housing Companies or Private Landlords. Do you think all of the above would have bankrupted the country?? I certainly don't. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grobyfox1990 Posted 23 March 2023 Share Posted 23 March 2023 5 minutes ago, Greg2607 said: by the same token.... Increase the Health Budget - Tories have allegedly done this.... Hold a 2nd Referendum on Brexit Deal (most people will agree that Brexit has been a disaster, so wouldn't we have wanted a say on the deal before it was agreed??) Rise Minimum Wage to £10ph - Tories have done this.... Stop State Pension Age Rises (Hunt has literally just done this) Introduce a National Care Service - Tories didn't QUITE do this.... but the raise in NI was meant to pay for it before it was reversed Bring Forward Net Zero Target Nationalise Energy Firms & Water Industries - Starmer has highlighted a back door way to do this.... create a national green energy firm...... either way, i think we can all agree that the state owned energy companies on the continent has kept other countries energy bills lower than ours... Replace Universal Credit Abolish Private Schools Charitable Status - Wouldn't have cost the tax payer anything. Free Bus Travel for under 25's Build 100,000 Council Homes a Year - The country is desperate for more social housing and this would then deliver an income to the government for generations ahead rather than it sitting with Private Social Housing Companies or Private Landlords. Do you think all of the above would have bankrupted the country?? I certainly don't. LOL fair play for having the patience for describing all the above. When the state is literally paying for us to turn the lights on, I think any 'magic money tree' b0llocks rhetoric is long gone Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grobyfox1990 Posted 23 March 2023 Share Posted 23 March 2023 23 minutes ago, leicsmac said: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-65035041 Imagine billions of people not being just short of water, but actually with no access to it at all. What then? They die. 10k's per year are already in/directly due to climate change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg2607 Posted 23 March 2023 Share Posted 23 March 2023 1 minute ago, grobyfox1990 said: LOL fair play for having the patience for describing all the above. When the state is literally paying for us to turn the lights on, I think any 'magic money tree' b0llocks rhetoric is long gone I agree with you by the way... I was making the original point which is that the Labour manifesto for 2019 which was described as some kind of Armageddon absolutely wasn't that. And it was led by someone who as a general rule of thumb seemed to actually like people.... Which i'm not sure could be levelled at the current lot. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg2607 Posted 23 March 2023 Share Posted 23 March 2023 26 minutes ago, leicsmac said: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-65035041 Imagine billions of people not being just short of water, but actually with no access to it at all. What then? it's when the world finally wakes up and see's what Mass Migration really means. You will literally see who countries worth of people moving out of their existing countries in order to survive. It will be catastrophic and absolute carnage on a scale we haven't seen before. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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