Also in the News - Part 2

[ozleicester]

Why LGBT Advocates Say Bathroom 'Predators' Argument Is a Red Herring



https://time.com/4314896/transgender-bathroom-bill-male-predators-argument/

[leicsmac]

18 minutes ago, ClaphamFox said:

It's a shame that the full report isn't available online as I'd be interested in reading it in more depth.

But my general point was that while all violent attacks on trans people should be universally condemned, there are very real concerns over other issues (ie, safety and privacy in women's spaces, fairness in sport and the medicalization of gender nonconforming young people) that affect huge numbers of people. Public awareness of these issues is rising and they are going to be discussed. I think this is a good thing because discussion is clearly needed.

Discuss and address them? Certainly.

 

Prioritise them even though they're a proven statistically smaller problem. No, that's irrational, and there doesn't seem to be a good reason for allowing for such irrationality.

[Shram]

The Irony of two British leaders being of Indian and Pakistani heritage overseeing the potential partition of Britain...

[The Doctor]

2 hours ago, ClaphamFox said:

. These discussions are going to take place whether the 'no debate' activists such as Stonewall like it or not. 

I do wish people would actually listen to the LGBT community on this. "No debate" came about as a result of channel 4 inviting trans activists to a 'debate' in which they'd deliberately planted multiple anti-trans activists in the crowd to hurl abuse. propaganda wheel goes into overdrive and "we're not agreeing to be ritually humiliated as light entertainment" (a very reasonable position) gets presented as "everyone has to kowtow to us without question" (not at all reasonable), and that's the story with every bit of toxicity in this debate, r.g. self-ID already exists in a practical sense (federal booby inspector is in fact not a real job), the GRR reform was a dry piece of administrative work, shifting away from panel assessment to statutory declaration, reducing bureaucracy for a piece of paper that only really matters for marriage and death certificates. SNP spokespeople repeatedly corrected the record, but lying about it for column inches became the primary hobby of like 90% of journalists in this country and suddenly everyone and their nan thought the SNP were trying to abolish women's changing rooms

[st albans fox]

1 hour ago, Shram said:

The Irony of two British leaders being of Indian and Pakistani heritage overseeing the potential partition of Britain...

Bloody foreigners coming over ‘ere, nicking our jobs …..

we should be allowed to partition our own countries …….

[Bellend Sebastian]

Lovely to see Associated Newspapers in court today.

 

I wish them the very worst from the bottom of my heart

[StanSP]

2 hours ago, Shram said:

The Irony of two British leaders being of Indian and Pakistani heritage overseeing the potential partition of Britain...

The Asian Invasion is here.

 

Suck it up  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

P.S I still hate the Tories and Sunak gets no love from me. 

[Charl91]

Well, the government has made an offer to teachers. And it's shocking 

Edited 27 March 2023 by Charl91

[Lionator]

3 hours ago, Bellend Sebastian said:

Lovely to see Associated Newspapers in court today.

 

I wish them the very worst from the bottom of my heart

Just seen the allegations. Absolutely shocking in nature but not surprising. Let’s hope Harry, Elton John and co push them right to the brink. 
 

just look what damage they do 

 

[Jattdogg]

4 hours ago, StanSP said:

The Asian Invasion is here.

 

Suck it up  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

P.S I still hate the Tories and Sunak gets no love from me. 

My dad had it right with the asian invasion,  hump a whitey and turn them beige (as Russell Peters would say) Lol.

 

Bloody asians shagging our women and making killer spicey palak paneer.

 

I suppose i have the best of both worlds? 

 

 

[Jon the Hat]

12 hours ago, ealingfox said:

I'm sure you're not wilfully ignoring this, but there were literal neo-Nazis involved in these incidents, and they weren't on the side you are criticising.

Not ignoring it at all.  The neo nazis turned up to counter protest the ANTIFA mob, not because they are anything to do with Let Women Speak.  They were men for a start.  You seem to be ignoring the fact that a fair chunk of the women speaking were Lesbians and POCs, not something Nazis support in this case or any other.  You are being misled by the media.

[Jon the Hat]

10 hours ago, leicsmac said:

It's a matter of factual and statistical empirical record (in terms of actual violent incidents and discrimination incidents anyhow), not of opinion, otherwise I'd qualify it as such. There is a quantifiably bigger and smaller problem here.

 

Of course, that doesn't mean ignore the very real issues you're raising here wholesale and they need to be addressed, but I can't see where the certainty comes from that they are the bigger issues and therefore should be focused on at the expense of what is, again, the quantifiably bigger problem. And yeah, hopefully a medium of come kind can be reached, but given events currently taking place in the US, among other places, I'm not holding my breath there.

You are literally expecting 51% of the population to give up their right to single sex spaces, in the face of actual cases of men taking advantage of the situation, to allow a tiny number of people to feel more comfortable.  Why is it more important that those tiny number feel safe and comfortable in their bathrooms, changing rooms, refuges than women?  This is not the smaller problem.  You are completely and deliberately missing the point.  This is about men telling women what they can't have, and women standing up for themselves.

[Jon the Hat]

8 hours ago, ozleicester said:

Why LGBT Advocates Say Bathroom 'Predators' Argument Is a Red Herring
https://time.com/4314896/transgender-bathroom-bill-male-predators-argument/

It is not a red herring, red herrings don't exist.  Male predators in female spaces 100% do exist.  They are on social media posting pics of their penises in womens bathrooms for a start.  I expect that is fine though, because obviously no man would pretend to be trans for their own predatory reasons.  Except those who already have and continue to do so.  This is why self ID is bollocks, and why the protesters getting so very upset about women talking about their actual experience of abuse and why they need to feel safe in single sex spaces are predominantly weird screaming blokes who are very quick to move to violence and rape threats etc.

[Jon the Hat]

Also, wtf is going on with this Paltrow trial?  As if she wouldn't have paid this guy to go away if she really hit him.  He looks like a attention seeking nutter, which is quite some achievement given he is in court with her.

[Jon the Hat]

8 hours ago, ozleicester said:

If anyone is concerned about safety of people... surely you should be focussing on helping trans people..

 

• Transgender people (16+) are victimized over four times more often than cisgender people. In 2017-2018, transgender people experienced 86.2 victimizations per 1,000 people compared to 21.7 victimizations per 1,000 people for cisgender people.
   
• Transgender women and men had higher rates of violent victimization (86.1 and 107.5 per 1,000 people, respectively) than cisgender women and men (23.7 and 19.8 per 1,000 people, respectively).
   
• One in four transgender women who were victimized thought the incident was a hate crime compared to less than one in ten cisgender women.

Yes fine, and no one is arguing about that.  Can you explain how taking away womens rights to single sex spaces will impact this at all?  And if so why women should be expected to take this impact on them, and not say men be expected to treat all men with respect even if they are identifying as a trans woman?

[Jon the Hat]

9 hours ago, ozleicester said:

Are you really comparing the dangers to cis people compared to Transfolk?

Transgender people over four times more likely than cisgender people to be victims of violent crime


https://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/press/ncvs-trans-press-release/


 

Women are victims of men on a far greater scale than trans women.  I can tell you that as a fact.  Rolling back the protections women have to help trans people is insane.

[Jon the Hat]

8 hours ago, ozleicester said:

 

There is no discussion with Nazis and hatemongers.. that filthy scum Posi brought these people onto the streets and cvnts defend her and them

You really think an English woman, organizing an event for women to speak - including lesbians and women of colour - invited Neo nazis?  They saw an opportunity to front up to ANTIFA and came for their own reasons.  The police then no doubt saw there was more chance of it all kicking off between the TRA mob and the Neo Nazis, and seperated them.   it suits your side of the argument to scream nazi at those who you disagree with, and you should be ashamed of the reaction to this nonsense which happened in Auckland.

Edited 27 March 2023 by Jon the Hat

[leicsmac]

1 hour ago, Jon the Hat said:

You are literally expecting 51% of the population to give up their right to single sex spaces, in the face of actual cases of men taking advantage of the situation, to allow a tiny number of people to feel more comfortable.  Why is it more important that those tiny number feel safe and comfortable in their bathrooms, changing rooms, refuges than women?  This is not the smaller problem.  You are completely and deliberately missing the point.  This is about men telling women what they can't have, and women standing up for themselves.

Have a look at the response from The Doctor upstream, as this is how I would respond to this.

 

As an addendum, I'm expecting people to focus on the proportionately larger incidents of violence and discrimination against trans people and not prioritise the proportionately smaller number of incidents you continue to refer to. You know, rationally.

 

1 hour ago, Jon the Hat said:

Yes fine, and no one is arguing about that.  Can you explain how taking away womens rights to single sex spaces will impact this at all?  And if so why women should be expected to take this impact on them, and not say men be expected to treat all men with respect even if they are identifying as a trans woman?

Evidently they are thinking it far less important than going after a minority of people taking advantage and "acitivists" for their own reasons, though.

 

1 hour ago, Jon the Hat said:

Women are victims of men on a far greater scale than trans women.  I can tell you that as a fact.  Rolling back the protections women have to help trans people is insane.

Proportionately untrue, as has been proven above.

 

I'm sorry Jon, but you are ignoring or dismissing empirical evidence presented to you here in the same way people you have (rightly) called out for it in other scientific areas have done in the past.

[The Doctor]

5 hours ago, Jon the Hat said:

Not ignoring it at all.  The neo nazis turned up to counter protest the ANTIFA mob, not because they are anything to do with Let Women Speak.  They were men for a start.  You seem to be ignoring the fact that a fair chunk of the women speaking were Lesbians and POCs, not something Nazis support in this case or any other.  You are being misled by the media.

no Jon, you're the one being mislead.

 

The neo Nazis turned up to support KJK, because she is also a neo nazi who has repeatedly been on white supremacist podcasts, had speakers recycling Nazi propaganda at her rallies and regularly tries to incite violence against muslims. She actively courts the far right (and advocates for violence against any woman who disagrees with her) and is such a fascist extremist that it has created a schism in anti-trans activism to the point where other prominent anti-trans activists like Julie Bindel and Jean Hatchet actively disavow her for welcoming Nazis with open arms.

 

The majority of the counter protests were women and POC, and it was aboriginal and maori women being assaulted by her fans and security force for disagreeing with her, and as for the idea that the Nazis wouldn't be there to support her because they're men, when polled we see that the majority of the anti-trans movement are men and she actively encourages the more violent of those men to subcontract her desire for violence against anyone who is GNC. She is a NeoNazi and the NeoNazis were there in solidarity with their own. 

[Jon the Hat]

4 hours ago, leicsmac said:

Have a look at the response from The Doctor upstream, as this is how I would respond to this.

 

As an addendum, I'm expecting people to focus on the proportionately larger incidents of violence and discrimination against trans people and not prioritise the proportionately smaller number of incidents you continue to refer to. You know, rationally.

 

Evidently they are thinking it far less important than going after a minority of people taking advantage and "acitivists" for their own reasons, though.

 

Proportionately untrue, as has been proven above.

 

I'm sorry Jon, but you are ignoring or dismissing empirical evidence presented to you here in the same way people you have (rightly) called out for it in other scientific areas have done in the past.

You can talk all day about proportionality, but millions of women are abused, assaulted and murdered by men every year.  Far more than the total trans population, so I will continue to point out that this is the big issue here.

[leicsmac]

8 minutes ago, Jon the Hat said:

You can talk all day about proportionality, but millions of women are abused, assaulted and murdered by men every year.  Far more than the total trans population, so I will continue to point out that this is the big issue here.

Fair enough. Hopefully it is possible to work on both issues simultaneously. Especially seeing as often the same parties are responsible for both.

[Jon the Hat]

1 hour ago, The Doctor said:

no Jon, you're the one being mislead.

 

The neo Nazis turned up to support KJK, because she is also a neo nazi who has repeatedly been on white supremacist podcasts, had speakers recycling Nazi propaganda at her rallies and regularly tries to incite violence against muslims. She actively courts the far right (and advocates for violence against any woman who disagrees with her) and is such a fascist extremist that it has created a schism in anti-trans activism to the point where other prominent anti-trans activists like Julie Bindel and Jean Hatchet actively disavow her for welcoming Nazis with open arms.

 

The majority of the counter protests were women and POC, and it was aboriginal and maori women being assaulted by her fans and security force for disagreeing with her, and as for the idea that the Nazis wouldn't be there to support her because they're men, when polled we see that the majority of the anti-trans movement are men and she actively encourages the more violent of those men to subcontract her desire for violence against anyone who is GNC. She is a NeoNazi and the NeoNazis were there in solidarity with their own. 

She is certainly a provocative figure, but there is nothing in any of that supposed evidence to suggest she is a neo-nazi.  I am aware plenty of people don't like her approach of allowing pretty much anyone to speak, but I would much rather people were allowed to speak and be judged on their words than be silenced by screaming counter protesters.  What the hell are they so scared of? 

 

I suppose you have some evidence of the assaults?  If you mean that politician charging at her who was removed by security and police what do you expect if you try that?  She chose to try and push past them.

[The Doctor]

5 minutes ago, Jon the Hat said:

She is certainly a provocative figure, but there is nothing in any of that supposed evidence to suggest she is a neo-nazi.  I am aware plenty of people don't like her approach of allowing pretty much anyone to speak, but I would much rather people were allowed to speak and be judged on their words than be silenced by screaming counter protesters.  What the hell are they so scared of? 

 

I suppose you have some evidence of the assaults?  If you mean that politician charging at her who was removed by security and police what do you expect if you try that?  She chose to try and push past them.

do you actually hear yourself? "Sure it's a matter of public knowledge she goes on white supremacist podcasts, invites them to speak at her rallies, gets funding from white supremacist groups and regurgitates white supremacist rhetoric regularly, but that doesn't suggest she's a white supremacist". you can't expect to be taken seriously while claiming that surely?

 

as for the assaults, Lidia Thorpe and the minister for indigenous Australians are talking about it as assault (while Keen and her supporters make ****ing vile comments and jokes about her being on her knees) and her supporters ran over Marama Davidson at a pedestrian crossing

 

58 minutes ago, Jon the Hat said:

You can talk all day about proportionality, but millions of women are abused, assaulted and murdered by men every year.  Far more than the total trans population, so I will continue to point out that this is the big issue here.

this would have more validity as a claim if it weren't the same people doing both (which is why the vast majority of feminist groups are trans inclusive, barring a few separatists from a fringe ideology from the 1970s, and the vast majority of trans women are committed feminists). 

[leicsmac]

6 minutes ago, The Doctor said:

do you actually hear yourself? "Sure it's a matter of public knowledge she goes on white supremacist podcasts, invites them to speak at her rallies, gets funding from white supremacist groups and regurgitates white supremacist rhetoric regularly, but that doesn't suggest she's a white supremacist". you can't expect to be taken seriously while claiming that surely?

 

as for the assaults, Lidia Thorpe and the minister for indigenous Australians are talking about it as assault (while Keen and her supporters make ****ing vile comments and jokes about her being on her knees) and her supporters ran over Marama Davidson at a pedestrian crossing

 

this would have more validity as a claim if it weren't the same people doing both (which is why the vast majority of feminist groups are trans inclusive, barring a few separatists from a fringe ideology from the 1970s, and the vast majority of trans women are committed feminists). 

And if the same arguments hadn't been regurgitated for black people, other ethnic minorities and LGBT folks in pretty much exactly the same fashion by the same type of people before.

[Jon the Hat]

13 minutes ago, The Doctor said:

do you actually hear yourself? "Sure it's a matter of public knowledge she goes on white supremacist podcasts, invites them to speak at her rallies, gets funding from white supremacist groups and regurgitates white supremacist rhetoric regularly, but that doesn't suggest she's a white supremacist". you can't expect to be taken seriously while claiming that surely?

 

as for the assaults, Lidia Thorpe and the minister for indigenous Australians are talking about it as assault (while Keen and her supporters make ****ing vile comments and jokes about her being on her knees) and her supporters ran over Marama Davidson at a pedestrian crossing

 

this would have more validity as a claim if it weren't the same people doing both (which is why the vast majority of feminist groups are trans inclusive, barring a few separatists from a fringe ideology from the 1970s, and the vast majority of trans women are committed feminists). 

Once again nothing you linked their supports that statement.  I suppose we are supposed to take every word she says literally (like she wants men with guns guarding womens toilets) while treating all the bile and threats feminists receive on a daily basis as not literal?  Anyway, I am not going to spend any more time trying to convince you as if you believe Pink news you are not going to be convinced of anything.

 

Have you seen the video?  No one assaulted Lidia Thorpe, she charged at security and they pushed her away to the Police, then she fell over and instead of standing up decided to crawl away on her hands and knees.  It was a bit weird.  No idea who the motorbike people in Auckland where, but sems a bit tenuous - I don't recall seeing any biker types in the footage of Keen being nearly crushed by the violent TRA crowd.