Also in the News - Part 2

[Foxdiamond]

Social care funding halved by government. 

[The Doctor]

On 01/04/2023 at 21:08, marbles said:

 

I mean right now it’s “that convicted child killer or rapist is not a threat to society.  Go ahead and release him back into society” 

that's the entire point of prisons though? to rehabilitate people and then reintegrate then as safe members of society. of course not everyone can be rehabilitated, some show zero remorse, but a focus on rehabilitation rather than punishment is very clear from across the world how you reduce recidivism.

[leicsmac]

9 minutes ago, The Doctor said:

that's the entire point of prisons though? to rehabilitate people and then reintegrate then as safe members of society. of course not everyone can be rehabilitated, some show zero remorse, but a focus on rehabilitation rather than punishment is very clear from across the world how you reduce recidivism.

Some people don't want rehabilitation, and don't think recidivism is a problem, other than for building more prisons.

 

Some people just want to punish and advocate for and/or be instruments of vengeance. They simply prefer it that way.

[Otis]

10 minutes ago, The Doctor said:

that's the entire point of prisons though? to rehabilitate people and then reintegrate then as safe members of society. of course not everyone can be rehabilitated, some show zero remorse, but a focus on rehabilitation rather than punishment is very clear from across the world how you reduce recidivism.

It really isn't. Prison terms are the punishment not the predicted length of time for rehabilitation. 

1. Punishment 

2. Rehabilitation 

[Blarmy]

44 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

Some people don't want rehabilitation, and don't think recidivism is a problem, other than for building more prisons.

 

Some people just want to punish and advocate for and/or be instruments of vengeance. They simply prefer it that way.

And others (like me) simply want the chance of someone re-offending to be as low as possible. The current re-offending rate for released prisoners in the UK is 36.7%, according to gov.uk.

[leicsmac]

51 minutes ago, Blarmy said:

And others (like me) simply want the chance of someone re-offending to be as low as possible. The current re-offending rate for released prisoners in the UK is 36.7%, according to gov.uk.

Then that, as the Doctor said above, can be statistically proven to be an issue with lack of rehabilitation, as opposed to building more prisons and throwing away the key.

 

It's a matter of record that re-offending rates decrease with better rehabilitation programs.

Edited 4 April 2023 by leicsmac

[leicsmac]

https://www.bbc.com/news/business-65172594

 

British billionaire Sir Richard Branson's rocket company Virgin Orbit has filed for bankruptcy in the US after failing to secure new investment.

 

Well, that's a shame.

[The Doctor]

2 hours ago, Otis said:

It really isn't. Prison terms are the punishment not the predicted length of time for rehabilitation. 

1. Punishment 

2. Rehabilitation 

this attitude is precisely why the recidivism rate in the UK is more than double that in places like Norway and Sweden, and why the USA accounts for 25% of the world's prisoners but only 5% of the population. 

 

even from a purely cost approach it's not effective. prisons are expensive to run, and creating career criminals rather than reforming people into functioning members of society has a massive economic cost as well as a social one

Edited 4 April 2023 by The Doctor

[Otis]

36 minutes ago, The Doctor said:

this attitude is precisely why the recidivism rate in the UK is more than double that in places like Norway and Sweden, and why the USA accounts for 25% of the world's prisoners but only 5% of the population. 

 

even from a purely cost approach it's not effective. prisons are expensive to run, and creating career criminals rather than reforming people into functioning members of society has a massive economic cost as well as a social one

It's not an attitude, It's a fact.

Prison time is a punishment, of course rehabilitation has a part to play during the sentence. The overriding factor to determine sentences is the crime committed, not how long it may or may not take to rehabilitate the offender. 

 

Yesterday's Thomas Cashman's case for example, if it was guaranteed he could be rehabilitated within 6 months would you be OK for him to be released afterwards?

 

Lot's of thing's are expensive to run but are absolutely necessary in a functioning society and provide to the general economy although granted at a net loss. I don't see that as an argument to reduce sentences. 

[leicsmac]

4 minutes ago, Otis said:

It's not an attitude, It's a fact.

Prison time is a punishment, of course rehabilitation has a part to play during the sentence. The overriding factor to determine sentences is the crime committed, not how long it may or may not take to rehabilitate the offender. 

 

Yesterday's Thomas Cashman's case for example, if it was guaranteed he could be rehabilitated within 6 months would you be OK for him to be released afterwards?

 

Lot's of thing's are expensive to run but are absolutely necessary in a functioning society and provide to the general economy although granted at a net loss. I don't see that as an argument to reduce sentences. 

This is true.

 

Now let's have the same attitude displayed by enough people towards renewable energy infrastructure projects - oh, and fission plants too. Because they are going to be, very soon, as necessary if not more necessary to a functioning society.

[The Doctor]

1 hour ago, Otis said:

It's not an attitude, It's a fact.

Prison time is a punishment, of course rehabilitation has a part to play during the sentence. The overriding factor to determine sentences is the crime committed, not how long it may or may not take to rehabilitate the offender. 

 

Yesterday's Thomas Cashman's case for example, if it was guaranteed he could be rehabilitated within 6 months would you be OK for him to be released afterwards?

 

Lot's of thing's are expensive to run but are absolutely necessary in a functioning society and provide to the general economy although granted at a net loss. I don't see that as an argument to reduce sentences. 

and it's also a fact that treating prison as punishment first, rehabilitation second increases recidivism rates and in the end results in more people being the victim of crime. personally I value less people being impacted by crime over how punitive a system is.

 

unlikely he would be given the nature of his behaviour in the trial but in this hypothetical yes, because he'd be a reformed person ready to contribute positively to society. If we say otherwise we're saying emotional responses to a crime are what's important, and that's not justice, that's mob rule 

[Otis]

26 minutes ago, The Doctor said:

and it's also a fact that treating prison as punishment first, rehabilitation second increases recidivism rates and in the end results in more people being the victim of crime. personally I value less people being impacted by crime over how punitive a system is.

 

unlikely he would be given the nature of his behaviour in the trial but in this hypothetical yes, because he'd be a reformed person ready to contribute positively to society. If we say otherwise we're saying emotional responses to a crime are what's important, and that's not justice, that's mob rule 

Wow what a crazy lefty world you live in.

 

Do you know what would happen if there was no punishment and only rehabilitation. Crime rates would go through roof. People would think, I'll rob you, rape you,  assult you, then there's fraud,  why both paying taxes or your supermarket shopping, let's brake speed limits, park where you want... Etc.

That would result in mob rule and only the strongest would survive. 

[Bordersfox]

1 hour ago, Otis said:

Wow what a crazy lefty world you live in.

 

Do you know what would happen if there was no punishment and only rehabilitation. Crime rates would go through roof. People would think, I'll rob you, rape you,  assult you, then there's fraud,  why both paying taxes or your supermarket shopping, let's brake speed limits, park where you want... Etc.

That would result in mob rule and only the strongest would survive. 

You've clearly chosen to ignore the facts as most people who live in a crazy righty world do.  

 

Did anyone say there should be no punishment?  No they did not.  What they said was that re-offending rates are far lower in countries that focus on rehabilitation.  These countries also punish by removing people's freedom and, if you've ever watched one of the documentaries on the Scandinavian systems (you haven't I'm sure), they are quite unequivocal that punishment is most certainly part of their system. But they also focus heavily on reducing re-offending far more successfully than we do.   

 

Your weird and entirely made up dystopian nightmare land is not want any right minded person wants.  

 

What they do want though is an evidence based approach to reducing re-offending because, if someone doesn't re-offend, they are firstly not going to rob your gran and secondly will become a useful tax paying member of society. 

[Otis]

3 minutes ago, Bordersfox said:

You've clearly chosen to ignore the facts as most people who live in a crazy righty world do.  

 

Did anyone say there should be no punishment?  No they did not.  What they said was that re-offending rates are far lower in countries that focus on rehabilitation.  These countries also punish by removing people's freedom and, if you've ever watched one of the documentaries on the Scandinavian systems (you haven't I'm sure), they are quite unequivocal that punishment is most certainly part of their system. But they also focus heavily on reducing re-offending far more successfully than we do.   

 

Your weird and entirely made up dystopian nightmare land is not want any right minded person wants.  

 

What they do want though is an evidence based approach to reducing re-offending because, if someone doesn't re-offend, they are firstly not going to rob your gran and secondly will become a useful tax paying member of society. 

I think you should read from the start again. 

The Doctor was proposing prison should be for rehabilitation then once the  said offender is deemed safe they are released. 

I never said rehabilitation shouldn't be part of the process. 

[Bordersfox]

Just now, Otis said:

I think you should read from the start again. 

The Doctor was proposing prison should be for rehabilitation then once the  said offender is deemed safe they are released. 

I never said rehabilitation shouldn't be part of the process. 

I did read from the start.  The doctor pontificated on a very silly hypothetical put to him by you, which was unwise.  

 

Very well, could you provide some statistical evidence for your view that we will descend into a dystopian hell without punishment, punishment, punishment?  Evidence is there that rehabilitation being the main focus reduces re-offending.

 

America has the death penalty in some states - the ultimate deterrent punishment surely? Do these states see lower murder rates? (Hint, no they are higher in the vast majority than states without it).  

[Guesty]

Someone on their last day in the Home Office social media team I imagine.

[marbles]

8 hours ago, The Doctor said:

that's the entire point of prisons though? to rehabilitate people and then reintegrate then as safe members of society. of course not everyone can be rehabilitated, some show zero remorse, but a focus on rehabilitation rather than punishment is very clear from across the world how you reduce recidivism.

For a lot of criminals - yes

For ones convicted of certain crimes - hell no.  
Seems like we kinda agree on this.

 

 

[Otis]

30 minutes ago, Bordersfox said:

I did read from the start.  The doctor pontificated on a very silly hypothetical put to him by you, which was unwise.  

 

Very well, could you provide some statistical evidence for your view that we will descend into a dystopian hell without punishment, punishment, punishment?  Evidence is there that rehabilitation being the main focus reduces re-offending.

 

America has the death penalty in some states - the ultimate deterrent punishment surely? Do these states see lower murder rates? (Hint, no they are higher in the vast majority than states without it).  

No punishment = no deterrent = lawless society 

[marbles]

8 hours ago, leicsmac said:

Some people don't want rehabilitation, and don't think recidivism is a problem, other than for building more prisons.

 

Some people just want to punish and advocate for and/or be instruments of vengeance. They simply prefer it that way.

I think most people want rehab for those who can be rehabbed.

 

Problem in this country is that prisons are just someplace to stick criminals.  
In my opinion, 2 things need to change if we want to cut back on the percentage of criminals who commit more crimes after release.

 

First, they need to be taught an actual trade while locked up.  Something to utilize once they get released - whether it be electricians, plumbing, computers, or even truckers.

 

Second, and more importantly - unless the crime meets a certain criteria, potential employers should not be able to inquire about past convictions.  
All the skills/training in the world won’t help if you have to check the little box that says “convicted of a felony”.  That should be illegal.  Time has been served, as has the punishment.  How can they be expected to move on if we  (society) don’t let them.

 

[marbles]

33 minutes ago, Bordersfox said:.

 

America has the death penalty in some states - the ultimate deterrent punishment surely? Do these states see lower murder rates? (Hint, no they are higher in the vast majority than states without it).  

I guarantee you that dangerous criminals do not think about punishment when committing their crimes.

The death penalty is only a deterrent in that those put to death will never kill again - and it has a 100% success rate on accomplishing its goal.

[Bordersfox]

3 minutes ago, marbles said:

I guarantee you that dangerous criminals do not think about punishment when committing their crimes.

The death penalty is only a deterrent in that those put to death will never kill again - and it has a 100% success rate on accomplishing its goal.

And of course those who are later found innocent.  Of which one is too many.  

[marbles]

6 minutes ago, Bordersfox said:

And of course those who are later found innocent.  Of which one is too many.  

As innocent as the victims of murder - of which one is also too many

[The Doctor]

3 hours ago, Otis said:

Wow what a crazy lefty world you live in.

 

Do you know what would happen if there was no punishment and only rehabilitation. Crime rates would go through roof. People would think, I'll rob you, rape you,  assult you, then there's fraud,  why both paying taxes or your supermarket shopping, let's brake speed limits, park where you want... Etc.

That would result in mob rule and only the strongest would survive. 

at no point did I say there should be no punishment, what I said is that punishment should not be the primary focus and the focus should be on rehabilitation and ensuring we don't have a permanent prison population but instead a steady stream of people who have reformed and are ready to contribute positively to their community, which is of greater social and economic benefit than just locking people up and forgetting about them 

[Otis]

8 minutes ago, The Doctor said:

at no point did I say there should be no punishment, what I said is that punishment should not be the primary focus and the focus should be on rehabilitation and ensuring we don't have a permanent prison population but instead a steady stream of people who have reformed and are ready to contribute positively to their community, which is of greater social and economic benefit than just locking people up and forgetting about them 

After they have served their punishment I have no issues with this, but not in place of.

Edited 4 April 2023 by Otis

[leicsmac]

6 hours ago, marbles said:

I think most people want rehab for those who can be rehabbed.

 

Problem in this country is that prisons are just someplace to stick criminals.  
In my opinion, 2 things need to change if we want to cut back on the percentage of criminals who commit more crimes after release.

 

First, they need to be taught an actual trade while locked up.  Something to utilize once they get released - whether it be electricians, plumbing, computers, or even truckers.

 

Second, and more importantly - unless the crime meets a certain criteria, potential employers should not be able to inquire about past convictions.  
All the skills/training in the world won’t help if you have to check the little box that says “convicted of a felony”.  That should be illegal.  Time has been served, as has the punishment.  How can they be expected to move on if we  (society) don’t let them.

 

I absolutely agree with both of these measures.

 

Sadly, in the US the show is mostly run by the people I describe above who are solely interested in vengeance, so I don't see either being implemented anytime soon.

 

5 hours ago, marbles said:

As innocent as the victims of murder - of which one is also too many

However, two wrongs don't make a right and people being murdered is no justification whatsoever for the state to kill an innocent person and that being dismissed as just "collateral damage" or something.