Patson Daka

[Richmondfox]

20 hours ago, ithuriel said:

Was not the slightest bit impressed by him  after his stint in the Prem with us, kept hoping he'd do well but never seemed to push on past a certain point, not fast enough, not strong enough and poor decision making all in one neat package, still, maybe he might do something at this level .

Poor decision making and not being able to stay in his feet were the main weaknesses for me. Several times he would feel the need to come all the way back to our box to help out and end up giving away stupid fouls which cost us like at Palace.  I can see he was trying to help out where players like Ndidi and Soumare should have been doing their job but again it goes down to poor decision making. 
 

He is frustrating as he can clearly score, we need to keep him as he will find the bet easier in the Championship. 

[Nick]

40 minutes ago, Finnegan said:

 

 

But oh hell, I'll oblige. 

 

Patson Daka is the most consistently accurate finisher of our strikers being the only one of the three to outperform is xG in both of the two years he's been here. 

 

 

 

 

Outperform the XG of the other two inconsistent strikers or outperform his own XG from the limited and arguably easier opportunities from in which he played?

 

Look, Im a Patson Daka fan but I’ve seem him fluff his fair share of chances. And that’s irrespective of what an over the hill Vardy or a Nacho can comparatively  not deliver either.

 

I’m just asking where the goals are going to come from. Consistently.

[deep blue]

I'm surprised that Daka hasn't improved more on his weak areas in the time he's been with us, given that he has someone as accomplished as Vardy to learn from.  I really can't make out whether he has a future with us and comes good in the championship.  My one let-out for any of our players last season, though, is having to be directed by Rodgers, the master of square pegs in round holes and team formations/tactics that prevent players performing to their strengths.

[Finnegan]

4 minutes ago, Nick said:

Outperform the XG of the other two inconsistent strikers or outperform his own XG from the limited and arguably easier opportunities from in which he played?

 

Look, Im a Patson Daka fan but I’ve seem him fluff his fair share of chances. And that’s irrespective of what an over the hill Vardy or a Nacho can comparatively  not deliver either.

 

I’m just asking where the goals are going to come from. Consistently.

 

I feel like you're trolling me because I know you're smarter than that. But I also feel unable to not respond. 

 

Patson Daka outperformed his own np:xG-aG/90 (that's non penalty, expected goals minus actual goals, per 90 minutes) in both the seasons he was here, he's the only one of the three to do that. He was the most accurate vs himself this year. 

 

As for "he gets easier chances so it doesn't matter" that's not how the metric works. xG is judged based on these factors already, you don't need to make further adjustment - two chances of, say, 0.3 xG are considered equally challenging to convert. 

 

Where Daka fell behind was in having a lower overall xG in this time. Now, as I've said before, this is difficult because it's not entirely an individual metric - it's also about the chance creation of the team, the games he's played in, etc, but I'd say when you add the anecdotal evidence (the "sight test") it's probably fair to take away at his movement off the ball isn't quite as good as Nacho and definitely not Vardy. But that's not surprising, especially in the latter sense given Vardy is one of the best of his generation in that regard. 

 

But claiming Daka is a poor (or inconsistent or unreliable or any other synonym) finisher is statistically, factually, objectively false. 

[Nick]

1 minute ago, Finnegan said:

 

I feel like you're trolling me because I know you're smarter than that. But I also feel unable to not respond. 

 

Patson Daka outperformed his own np:xG-aG/90 (that's non penalty, expected goals minus actual goals, per 90 minutes) in both the seasons he was here, he's the only one of the three to do that. He was the most accurate vs himself this year. 

 

As for "he gets easier chances so it doesn't matter" that's not how the metric works. xG is judged based on these factors already, you don't need to make further adjustment - two chances of, say, 0.3 xG are considered equally challenging to convert. 

 

Where Daka fell behind was in having a lower overall xG in this time. Now, as I've said before, this is difficult because it's not entirely an individual metric - it's also about the chance creation of the team, the games he's played in, etc, but I'd say when you add the anecdotal evidence (the "sight test") it's probably fair to take away at his movement off the ball isn't quite as good as Nacho and definitely not Vardy. But that's not surprising, especially in the latter sense given Vardy is one of the best of his generation in that regard. 

 

But claiming Daka is a poor (or inconsistent or unreliable or any other synonym) finisher is statistically, factually, objectively false. 

All that’s lovely an all but he didn’t consistently get in the side and score lots of goals, leading me to have the confidence he’ll be an animal in the Championship and consistently score goals - which is also statistically, factually and objectively correct.

 

I have clearly walked in to you being on some kind of Patson crusade for you to be picking up on semantics and XG so I’ll leave you to it... but all I am concerned about is where the goals are going to come from for this campaign and if you think Patson Daka is going to score 25 or so needed for promotion, then great - write that below and we’ll see. I personally hope he does but just am concerned he might well not - if that’s then me labelling badly in terms of using the word ‘consistency’, that’s cool I’ll take hat on the chin but  however you frame it, will he consistently score enough goals and be our main striker meaning there’s no need to go get the lad from Swansea who we know can score 22 a season?

[Finnegan]

21 minutes ago, Nick said:

lad from Swansea who we know can score 22 a season?

 

Joel Piroe scored 19 league goals in 43 appearances last year taking in a goal every 200 minutes. 

 

The season before we bought Patson Daka, the last time he was a starting 9 all year, he scored 27 league goals in 28 appearances (obviously fewer teams in the league) with a goal every 50 minutes. 

 

Yes, I think Patson Daka is a better striker than Joel Piroe, yes I think if he's our starting striker this season he will consistently score goals at this level if the team is productive enough. 

 

I don't have a problem with Piroe, if we have to sell either Iheanacho or Daka or release Vardy for financial reasons or if their style of play just doesn't fit Enzo's vision then, cool, great. Let's crack on, #announcejoel etc. 

 

But I am very, very, very bored of the tragic disrespect thrown Daka's way, mirroring almost exactly the treatment of Iheanacho by our fans earlier in his Leicester career, especially given Daka had done more to prove himself than Kel before the latter's Leicester renaissance. 

 

He's quite obviously got a lot of talent but has been pretty horrendously managed over the last two years under Rodgers and, like a lot of the side, has had the confidence absolutely shit kicked out of him by a woeful man manager. 

 

Edited 3 July 2023 by Finnegan

[Bptiger]

Daka is not EPL standard , and a doubt he would be any better in the championship, as it is a very though league , better sell him now and get something back 

[NW fox]

I don't think any of our strikers have been played to their strengths for a long time. We can't judge them on goals scored and xg crap when they was being used incorrectly by Brendan. You can see daka, vardy and nacho will flourish and bag goals constantly if are used correctly. Some games nacho is gonna be better suited to start, other games vardy would be better off starting and others daka would.

All 3 offer different things we should keep all 3 in my opinion 

[PAPA LAZAROU]

2 hours ago, Finnegan said:

 

I feel like you're trolling me because I know you're smarter than that. But I also feel unable to not respond. 

 

Patson Daka outperformed his own np:xG-aG/90 (that's non penalty, expected goals minus actual goals, per 90 minutes) in both the seasons he was here, he's the only one of the three to do that. He was the most accurate vs himself this year. 

 

As for "he gets easier chances so it doesn't matter" that's not how the metric works. xG is judged based on these factors already, you don't need to make further adjustment - two chances of, say, 0.3 xG are considered equally challenging to convert. 

 

Where Daka fell behind was in having a lower overall xG in this time. Now, as I've said before, this is difficult because it's not entirely an individual metric - it's also about the chance creation of the team, the games he's played in, etc, but I'd say when you add the anecdotal evidence (the "sight test") it's probably fair to take away at his movement off the ball isn't quite as good as Nacho and definitely not Vardy. But that's not surprising, especially in the latter sense given Vardy is one of the best of his generation in that regard. 

 

But claiming Daka is a poor (or inconsistent or unreliable or any other synonym) finisher is statistically, factually, objectively false. 

Right better have a trip down to Specsavers then my eyes must be in a right state, how on earth they fooled me into seeing he isn't and won't be good enough last season is anyone's guess. All that xg metric bollocks count for nothing it's what a player does on the pitch and he ain't never going to be up to the standard we hoped he would be.

[Finnegan]

2 minutes ago, PAPA LAZAROU said:

Right better have a trip down to Specsavers then my eyes must be in a right state, how on earth they fooled me into seeing he isn't and won't be good enough last season is anyone's guess. All that xg metric bollocks count for nothing it's what a player does on the pitch and he ain't never going to be up to the standard we hoped he would be.

 

Don't be harsh on yourself. Maybe your eyes are working great, you just perhaps don't quite understand what you're watching. But that's fine, chin up lad, that's why there's a whole mountain of various statistics to help you out. 

[PAPA LAZAROU]

1 minute ago, Finnegan said:

 

Don't be harsh on yourself. Maybe your eyes are working great, you just perhaps don't quite understand what you're watching. But that's fine, chin up lad, that's why there's a whole mountain of various statistics to help you out. 

I don't go to watch statistics and apart from your good self neither does anyone else. Anyone with a modicum of intelligence can tell if a player is any good or not. I have a modicum of intelligence and I can tell you with or without the meaningless statistics he just isn't good enough. Now that is a statistic-free opinion.

[Verumex]

11 hours ago, PAPA LAZAROU said:

All that xg metric bollocks count for nothing it's what a player does on the pitch

This is unintentionally comedy gold. 

 

You do understand that this xg metric bollocks is a statistical analysis of what a player factually does on the pitch, right? 

 

You're arguing that your subjective opinion is worth more than measurable fact.

Edited 3 July 2023 by Verumex

[STUHILL]

2 minutes ago, Verumex said:

This is unintentionally comedy gold. 

 

You do understand that this xg metric bollocks is a statistical analysis of what a player factually does on the pitch, right? 

 

You're arguing that you're subjective opinion is worth more that measurable fact.

I hate the new obsession with XG but you are right of course. 

[JimJams]

Personally I like Daka, but it doesn't matter if you rate him or think he's shit. At the end of the day Maresca will get a look at him and decide. And if he thinks he's good enough, that's enough for me.

So hopefully Maresca is also good enough.

 

 

 

After Kel fluffed a point blank header and wasted a penalty against Crystal Palace at the end of 2020, everybody thought he'd blown his last chance. He'd been shit for too long. Then things changed and he turned around a lot of peoples perceptions of him. And that was after being here 3 1/2 years. So a "modicum of intelligence" might not be enough to make a proper judgement.

 

 

You're gonna tell me you think Kel is shit now just to lay waste to that fine comparison aren't you?!

 

[Verumex]

5 minutes ago, STUHILL said:

I hate the new obsession with XG but you are right of course. 

XG is flawed, and it attempts to quantify performance of an individual in a very fluid and team based game with many factors it cannot take into account, but it's a very good metric for getting a snapshot of a player's form.

 

A lot are taking these new stats as absolute gospel, which is ridiculous, but it also cannot be ignored as a good objective metric to take into consideration.

[Bordersfox]

13 minutes ago, PAPA LAZAROU said:

The real comedy gold is in anyone thinking statistical analysis somehow makes a player measurably better. It doesn't and never will. Talent both physical and mental is what you need and you are either born with that or you are not. anyone can make any statistics up to look whatever they want but it has no meaning when you are on that pitch. 

Nobody is saying that surely re: stats making players better? What they are saying is statistical analysis measures what a player does, objectively.  Those stats may then be used by clubs to try and improve a player or focus training on an area of weakness.  But the stats are just a metric, they don't improve or reduce a player's ability.  

 

So again, who is saying a player doesn't need talent?  I could go out on the pitch tomorrow and my stats would be pure shit because I'm a 42 year old bloke with little footballing ability and a fondness for claret.  But the stats would still be accurate whether I like it or not.  

 

Whereas you are advocating the far less objective and far more likely to be completely subjective sight test of a player. All of your preconceived ideas or prejudices about a player, personal likes and dislikes, even your mood etc will all feed in to the way you rate a particular player over time. 

 

Anyone can make stats up is just a Trumpian thing to say.  Who's making up all these footballing stats and what reason do they have to do so?

[PAPA LAZAROU]

2 hours ago, Bordersfox said:

Nobody is saying that surely re: stats making players better? What they are saying is statistical analysis measures what a player does, objectively.  Those stats may then be used by clubs to try and improve a player or focus training on an area of weakness.  But the stats are just a metric, they don't improve or reduce a player's ability.  

 

So again, who is saying a player doesn't need talent?  I could go out on the pitch tomorrow and my stats would be pure shit because I'm a 42 year old bloke with little footballing ability and a fondness for claret.  But the stats would still be accurate whether I like it or not.  

 

Whereas you are advocating the far less objective and far more likely to be completely subjective sight test of a player. All of your preconceived ideas or prejudices about a player, personal likes and dislikes, even your mood etc will all feed in to the way you rate a particular player over time. 

 

Anyone can make stats up is just a Trumpian thing to say.  Who's making up all these footballing stats and what reason do they have to do so?

Ok fair enough. So do they use those stats to try and improve a player? if so I would be genuinely interested to know how.

[funkyrobot]

11 hours ago, Finnegan said:

 

 

But oh hell, I'll oblige. 

 

Patson Daka is the most consistently accurate finisher of our strikers being the only one of the three to outperform is xG in both of the two years he's been here. 

 

 

 

 

How does he rate in terms of actual number of chances though? Someone who has more efforts on goal I would expect would be less accurate than someone who takes less shots. I would argue that a player that has a lot of chances but is less accurate is better than a striker who has fantastic accuracy but rarely gets in a position to have a shot. 

[Bordersfox]

19 minutes ago, PAPA LAZAROU said:

Ok fair enough. So do they use those stats to try and improve a player? if so I would be genuinely interested to know how.

It's a good question and I'm sure one of the football manager nerds on here can answer it better than me.  XG and all that God knows but they have a whole plethora of stats about players beyond that, don't some young players even have transmitters in boots to measure number of ball contacts and stuff?  Stats can be used to tailor training regimes, focus on areas of weakness for example finishing.  

 

I don't believe stats alone are the answer, of course they aren't.  Coaches will still rely heavily on the sight test as we do.  But I just don't think we can dismiss them out of hand or claim they can be used or twisted to say anything.  That's of no benefit to football clubs which are ultimately businesses.    

[Finnegan]

1 hour ago, funkyrobot said:

How does he rate in terms of actual number of chances though? Someone who has more efforts on goal I would expect would be less accurate than someone who takes less shots. I would argue that a player that has a lot of chances but is less accurate is better than a striker who has fantastic accuracy but rarely gets in a position to have a shot. 

 

If I remember correctly, he takes more shots on avwrage per 90 minutes than Vards but with a lower total xG/90.

 

So, yes, he's accurate with a good volume but he doesn't find himself in as many good goal scoring positions as Vardy. 

 

Edited 3 July 2023 by Finnegan

[Arriba Los Zorros]

Whatever the carefully selected stats the likes of @Finnegan dig up and shove in our faces to justify their faith in Daka, he hasn't passed the sight test up until now, he appears to be exceptionally raw and would be better suited in the reserves or sent to OHL for a while to improve his all round game.

 

If he does stay, then I hope Maresca will be working on improving his weaknesses so that he and we can actually benefit from his pace and finishing when he does play. Because at the moment he is a total passenger when he plays and I'm not convinced that dropping down a league solves that. 

 

One thing you can say that is definitely in his favour is that he has the attributes that can't be taught and is lacking in those which can, so provided he has the right attitude and coaching there is hope, and that's the only reason to not cut our losses on him here and now.

 

Sorry if that triggers you Finnegan, and I await the inevitable condescending smartest man in the room reply, but until he performs for us you're going to have to accept a good chunk of our fanbase are not impressed with what we've seen of Daka.

Edited 4 July 2023 by Arriba Los Zorros

[Lesta Legend]

9 hours ago, Arriba Los Zorros said:

Whatever the carefully selected stats the likes of @Finnegan dig up and patronisingly shove in our faces to justify their faith in Daka, he hasn't passed the sight test up until now, he appears to be exceptionally raw and would be better suited in the reserves or sent to OHL for a while to improve his all round game.

 

If he does stay, then I hope Maresca will be working on improving his weaknesses so that he and we can actually benefit from his pace and finishing when he does play. Because at the moment he is a total passenger when he plays and I'm not convinced that dropping down a league solves that. 

 

One thing you can say that is definitely in his favour is that he has the attributes that can't be taught and is lacking in those which can, so provided he has the right attitude and coaching there is hope, and that's the only reason to not cut our losses on him here and now.

 

Sorry if that triggers you Finnegan, and I await the inevitable condescending smartest man in the room reply, but until he performs for us you're going to have to accept a good chunk of our fanbase are not impressed with what we've seen of Daka.

He'll come good actually given a chance. It matters not one jot what we think. 

Edited 4 July 2023 by Lesta Legend

[Pliskin]

If we are going to play a more possession based style, but at the pace Maresca seemingly wants to play at, every player needs to be comfortable in possession and have the ability to keep the ball under pressure, and at the very least be able to pass it and keep the ball moving. 
 

Daka is a finisher, although Rodgers wasn’t able to get that out of him. Which makes you think regardless of what Enzo can do with him, he is unlikely to be used due to his shortcomings. 

[AKCJ]

2 minutes ago, Arriba Los Zorros said:

Whatever the carefully selected stats the likes of @Finnegan dig up and patronisingly shove in our faces to justify their faith in Daka, he hasn't passed the sight test up until now, he appears to be exceptionally raw and would be better suited in the reserves or sent to OHL for a while to improve his all round game.

 

If he does stay, then I hope Maresca will be working on improving his weaknesses so that he and we can actually benefit from his pace and finishing when he does play. Because at the moment he is a total passenger when he plays and I'm not convinced that dropping down a league solves that. 

 

One thing you can say that is definitely in his favour is that he has the attributes that can't be taught and is lacking in those which can, so provided he has the right attitude and coaching there is hope, and that's the only reason to not cut our losses on him here and now.

 

Sorry if that triggers you Finnegan, and I await the inevitable condescending smartest man in the room reply, but until he performs for us you're going to have to accept a good chunk of our fanbase are not impressed with what we've seen of Daka.

You will of course have taken into account the fact that he's only ever played in the Premier League with limited minutes in a poor side.

[Arriba Los Zorros]

1 minute ago, AKCJ said:

You will of course have taken into account the fact that he's only ever played in the Premier League with limited minutes in a poor side.

Look, I don't have any sort of negative bias towards Daka, I was excited when he signed and have been extremely disappointed by the player we appear to have got based on watching matches rather than scouring data stats sites.

 

He may well come good given proper coaching, and as I've said before his ceiling is extremely high. My gut feeling is that he is too lacking technically to make it here, regardless of who is manager or where we are in the league. If he scores 30 goals and gets us promoted I'll be happy for him and will change my opinion.