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moore_94

Patson Daka

By moore_94, in Transfer Talk

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Rossiter

Rossiter

Posted
Posted
12 minutes ago, foxpleasure said:

Thank God you're not a research scientist!

You're not are you?

No I'm not! 😆Obviously in certain areas stats and numbers are crucial. I just think in football maybe not so much but they do have a place. There's a good programme on Radio 4 called More or Less that looks at stats and it's quite enlightening to see how statistics are used and, sometimes, misused. I don't know if they've had a look at statistics in sport yet.

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Lesta Legend

Lesta Legend

Posted
Posted
55 minutes ago, Rossiter said:

I'm not sure about using stats and numbers. I think, for me, I prefer to look with my own eyes. 

 

Watch money ball, read the book. Look at the team we assembled for fck sake that won us the title, yes a team built via a stats based model. 

 

You ultimately watch the player's during the process, observe their personality and attitude etc. But it's the stats that find you the right individuals to fit into your system. The idea is you find value in players that one else can see, the players not yet on the radars of the bigger clubs / the dinosaurs that should but don't use that same approach. It highlights players that people probably don't rate but utilised in a certain way / style can do well. 

 

Our club have dropped the ball and allowed successive managers to dismantle what worked and all this while the likes of Brentford and Brighton have used the system to great effect. I hope they're going back to that!

 

 

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Rossiter

Rossiter

Posted
Posted
2 minutes ago, Lesta Legend said:

Watch money ball, read the book. Look at the team we assembled for fck sake that won us the title, yes a team built via a stats based model. 

 

You ultimately watch the player's during the process, observe their personality and attitude etc. But it's the stats that find you the right individuals to fit into your system. The idea is you find value in players that one else can see, the players not yet on the radars of the bigger clubs / the dinosaurs that should but don't use that same approach. It highlights players that people probably don't rate but utilised in a certain way / style can do well. 

 

Our club have dropped the ball and allowed successive managers to dismantle what worked and all this while the likes of Brentford and Brighton have used the system to great effect. I hope they're going back to that!

 

 

I didn't say that stats weren't  useful. I just don't think they are the be all and end all especially when dealing with human beings. Player A could have great numbers but might run into a load of unforeseen personal problems and that could affect performances. There are imponderables in life that stats and numbers don't always see. That's all.

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BKLFox

BKLFox

Posted
Posted

Round peg gets brought in to do a round peg job in the system (namely eventually take the reins from Vardy) now with change of system the round peg has become a square peg to the system ergo FT = Round peg is shite & another dud secured by the club when will we ever learn lol

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Claridge

Claridge

Posted
Posted
26 minutes ago, Lesta Legend said:

Watch money ball, read the book. Look at the team we assembled for fck sake that won us the title, yes a team built via a stats based model. 

 

You ultimately watch the player's during the process, observe their personality and attitude etc. But it's the stats that find you the right individuals to fit into your system. The idea is you find value in players that one else can see, the players not yet on the radars of the bigger clubs / the dinosaurs that should but don't use that same approach. It highlights players that people probably don't rate but utilised in a certain way / style can do well. 

 

Our club have dropped the ball and allowed successive managers to dismantle what worked and all this while the likes of Brentford and Brighton have used the system to great effect. I hope they're going back to that!

 

 

Scouts went to watch a player in France with great stats. Saw some lad called Riyad and bought him instead without looking at his stats. Anyone see Lineker and shearer talking about pre season training and being the worst at it. They used to take the piss out of shearer as the ran by, he replied wait to we get the balls out. Good job they didn’t just focus on his stats as a youngster. Stats are part of scouting but no where near the most important, all Chelsea’s buys must have great stats but….

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LCFCJohn

LCFCJohn

Posted
Posted
41 minutes ago, Rossiter said:

I didn't say that stats weren't  useful. I just don't think they are the be all and end all especially when dealing with human beings. Player A could have great numbers but might run into a load of unforeseen personal problems and that could affect performances. There are imponderables in life that stats and numbers don't always see. That's all.

Personally I think both play a part but are also linked.

 

Lets say for example, you have a winger that is putting ball after ball on a tee, but the striker he is putting them on a tee to is Neil Maupay, the stats will show he went all season without an assist. The surface stats.

 

Your trust your eyes view will tell you that the winger was not in fact the problem. That’s where the XG and XA (is that right for expected assists?) show that the winger should have had say 15 assists. Therefore you need the new striker.

 

And that’s just the minimum of the type of stats that clubs will use, it’ll be so much more in depth.

 

So basically, yeah the stats will be incorporating what you see with your eyes.

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Paninistickers

Paninistickers

Posted
Posted
51 minutes ago, Lesta Legend said:

Watch money ball, read the book. Look at the team we assembled for fck sake that won us the title, yes a team built via a stats based model. 

 

You ultimately watch the player's during the process, observe their personality and attitude etc. But it's the stats that find you the right individuals to fit into your system. The idea is you find value in players that one else can see, the players not yet on the radars of the bigger clubs / the dinosaurs that should but don't use that same approach. It highlights players that people probably don't rate but utilised in a certain way / style can do well. 

 

Our club have dropped the ball and allowed successive managers to dismantle what worked and all this while the likes of Brentford and Brighton have used the system to great effect. I hope they're going back to that!

 

 

Title win wasn't really a formal stats based model, was it? 

 

Drinky and Vardy and Mahrez and Kante were signed as gambles on exceptional talent at their current clubs. Morgan and Huth and Fuchs were largely acquired for their leadership qualities and physicality. Albrighton was more or less all we could find who'd sign for us. Simpson a squad filler who came good. 

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Rossiter

Rossiter

Posted
Posted
37 minutes ago, LCFCJohn said:

Personally I think both play a part but are also linked.

 

Lets say for example, you have a winger that is putting ball after ball on a tee, but the striker he is putting them on a tee to is Neil Maupay, the stats will show he went all season without an assist. The surface stats.

 

Your trust your eyes view will tell you that the winger was not in fact the problem. That’s where the XG and XA (is that right for expected assists?) show that the winger should have had say 15 assists. Therefore you need the new striker.

 

And that’s just the minimum of the type of stats that clubs will use, it’ll be so much more in depth.

 

So basically, yeah the stats will be incorporating what you see with your eyes.

Fair enough. Good point but wouldn't a manager worth his or her salt spot this anyway during games?  I think analytics are useful and clearly here to stay but my early post was about Daka's numbers and using them to state a case that he's done alright. Personally, I don't think he has but there could be a player there. Analytics have added a new dimension to how we see the game and that has made things arguably more interesting. I don't advocate ignoring analytics. 

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Foxin_Mad

Foxin_Mad

Posted
Posted
2 hours ago, PAPA LAZAROU said:

Yes but we are not in the premier league and it's not a given we go straight back up either. I'd rather see what he can do at this level then make a judgement.

Given he has absolutely no strength on the ball or off it he I imagine would be absolutely atrocious. He is too easily knocked off balance and ends up on the floor, he's not got the agression and nasty streak a top striker in England needs I feel. 

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Foxin_Mad

Foxin_Mad

Posted
Posted
2 hours ago, MPH said:


 

I can imagine him being somewhat successful for a smaller prem team that would play to his strengths and let him fun on to the ball into the box, ect cross the ball low into the box.. have a target man drop it to his feet from corners/ crosses/ free kicks kind of thing… like. Brentford, Palace type team.. the sort of team were they wouldn’t have the luxury to do anything else other than play to his strengths..  

 

 

but he can’t be a loan striker, and he  can’t get the ball with his back to goal and he can’t be expected to run with the ball from the halfway line and take a few players on. 
 

he’s just an old  fashioned striker/ Poacher and we should have known that when we bought him…

It's possible he may work better with another striker, although his general strength and physicality is a major concern. He'd be forgiven some time to adopt but last year he was pretty awful, it was hard to justify him getting into an awful squad! 

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LCFCJohn

LCFCJohn

Posted
Posted
52 minutes ago, Rossiter said:

Fair enough. Good point but wouldn't a manager worth his or her salt spot this anyway during games?  I think analytics are useful and clearly here to stay but my early post was about Daka's numbers and using them to state a case that he's done alright. Personally, I don't think he has but there could be a player there. Analytics have added a new dimension to how we see the game and that has made things arguably more interesting. I don't advocate ignoring analytics. 

I am referring more to recruitment so before it comes to in game with the manager. I.e, in my example, you’d still sign that winger. I suppose what I’m saying is that the underlying stats are probably more useful than the surface stats. But the underlying stats may also be more in line with what you observe with your eyes.

 

I am one who has looked at Daka’s numbers and do think he’s done alright. He’s a case where the surface stats, I.e played 30 odd games in the league and scored 9 goals are poor but when you look at the detail, he had only played the equivalent of many less games so it is better than it looks.
 

You have said yourself, there’s probably a player in there. I don’t think it’s about saying he’s done great for us or will do great. It’s two sides to the coin, one side calling him a pub player, competition winner etc which is clearly hyperbolic bullshit. The other more balanced side is to acknowledge that he’s hasn’t been particularly good, albeit his numbers are better than you might think. Realistically, he’s the wrong player for us and should more on to reignite his career. 
 

Some people struggle to differentiate between a shit player and one just not suited, at the wrong club at the wrong time etc.

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MPH

MPH

Posted
Posted
40 minutes ago, Foxin_Mad said:

It's possible he may work better with another striker, although his general strength and physicality is a major concern. He'd be forgiven some time to adopt but last year he was pretty awful, it was hard to justify him getting into an awful squad! 


 

We played with 1 up front for the most time last season and he’s just not a 1 up front kind of striker.

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kenny

kenny

Posted
Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Paninistickers said:

Title win wasn't really a formal stats based model, was it? 

 

Drinky and Vardy and Mahrez and Kante were signed as gambles on exceptional talent at their current clubs. Morgan and Huth and Fuchs were largely acquired for their leadership qualities and physicality. Albrighton was more or less all we could find who'd sign for us. Simpson a squad filler who came good. 

Pearson used to give briefs to Walsh on the sort of player he was looking for. Much of this is was stat based, IE right footed left winger that had high take on percentages. Or a central midfielder that had high interception stats combined with quick acceleration.

 

This was cross referenced on the database against short contract lengths. Once this was whittled down, Walsh watched the targets in person.

 

Simpsons was signed has he was a good back post defender to give Mahrez the freedom needed. He was more calculated than a cheap squad filler.

 

Some info that came out when we signed Hernandez, I think it came from a Walsh interview at the time.

 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.skysports.com/amp/football/news/11712/10512501/leicesters-new-signings-the-stats-that-made-them-stand-out

Edited by kenny
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PAPA LAZAROU

PAPA LAZAROU

Posted
Posted
2 hours ago, Foxin_Mad said:

Given he has absolutely no strength on the ball or off it he I imagine would be absolutely atrocious. He is too easily knocked off balance and ends up on the floor, he's not got the agression and nasty streak a top striker in England needs I feel. 

Yes agreed. But I have a feeling he like other players under Rodgers was mismanaged and the result was none of the team played well. They all look bloody awful and nowhere near as good as we knew they could play. 

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Tommy Fresh

Tommy Fresh

Posted
Posted
5 hours ago, Rossiter said:

I didn't say that stats weren't  useful. I just don't think they are the be all and end all especially when dealing with human beings. Player A could have great numbers but might run into a load of unforeseen personal problems and that could affect performances. There are imponderables in life that stats and numbers don't always see. That's all.

Look in to what AZ do, they don't just analyse performance related data etc.

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Gamble92

Gamble92

Posted
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Posted
3 hours ago, kenny said:

Pearson used to give briefs to Walsh on the sort of player he was looking for. Much of this is was stat based, IE right footed left winger that had high take on percentages. Or a central midfielder that had high interception stats combined with quick acceleration.

 

This was cross referenced on the database against short contract lengths. Once this was whittled down, Walsh watched the targets in person.

 

Simpsons was signed has he was a good back post defender to give Mahrez the freedom needed. He was more calculated than a cheap squad filler.

 

Some info that came out when we signed Hernandez, I think it came from a Walsh interview at the time.

 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.skysports.com/amp/football/news/11712/10512501/leicesters-new-signings-the-stats-that-made-them-stand-out

While Jamie Vardy has signed a new deal keeping him at Leicester, it's perhaps understandable that the signing of Ahmed Musa was seen as a potential replacement. "I think I am like Jamie Vardy," said Musa himself. 

 

**** me

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Mike Oxlong

Mike Oxlong

Posted
Posted
21 minutes ago, Gamble92 said:

While Jamie Vardy has signed a new deal keeping him at Leicester, it's perhaps understandable that the signing of Ahmed Musa was seen as a potential replacement. "I think I am like Jamie Vardy," said Musa himself. 

 

**** me

Sound’s like the twat had a god complex 

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volpeazzurro

volpeazzurro

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, Gamble92 said:

While Jamie Vardy has signed a new deal keeping him at Leicester, it's perhaps understandable that the signing of Ahmed Musa was seen as a potential replacement. "I think I am like Jamie Vardy," said Musa himself. 

 

**** me

In fairness, I always thought that he could chase a ball well like my labrador. Unfortunately, I think I'd back my labrador to actually catch it and bring it under control more effectively. 

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