Your turning point?

[The Doctor]

6 hours ago, marbles said:

I can understand several turning points listed.

The ones I can’t understand, are the ones who claim we bottled a top4 finish.  Bottling would imply that it’s a given.  That’s it’s our place - we are NOT a top 4 team.  We were not a top 4 team the year we won the league.  That’s what made it so special - doing something that was not expected.

If you don’t have realistic expectations, you are never going to be happy with whomever takes over after BR is gone.

 

 

 

we literally did bottle a top 4 position though, we went into project restart after first lockdown in 3rd 8 points clear of 5th with 9 to play. Following season we were again in 3rd, 7 points clear of 5th after 29 games... both are commanding positions where even average form in the last would have secured champions league football, but throwing away a near point per game lead definitely qualifies as bottling.

[marbles]

16 minutes ago, The Doctor said:

we literally did bottle a top 4 position though, we went into project restart after first lockdown in 3rd 8 points clear of 5th with 9 to play. Following season we were again in 3rd, 7 points clear of 5th after 29 games... both are commanding positions where even average form in the last would have secured champions league football, but throwing away a near point per game lead definitely qualifies as bottling.

I don’t see over performing and then falling back into place, as bottling.

 

We have floundered all season near the relegation zone.  Does that mean we are underperforming, or a legit bottom 3 team?  
If we are a legit bottom 3 team, and we somehow survive - that would mean BR pulled off a Great Escape (if he was still here).

If we are underperforming, why is it any different than us over performing those 2 seasons?

 

[dooflip]

33 minutes ago, marbles said:

I don’t see over performing and then falling back into place, as bottling.

 

How did you get in here, Brendan?

[The Doctor]

27 minutes ago, marbles said:

I don’t see over performing and then falling back into place, as bottling.

 

We have floundered all season near the relegation zone.  Does that mean we are underperforming, or a legit bottom 3 team?  
If we are a legit bottom 3 team, and we somehow survive - that would mean BR pulled off a Great Escape (if he was still here).

If we are underperforming, why is it any different than us over performing those 2 seasons?

 

throwing away a lead that should be insurmountable is bottling that lead, regardless of whether getting that lead involved playing above your level. even bog standard midtable form, 3 wins , 3 draws, 3 defeats from the last 9 games then requires the chasing team to put together title winning form to catch you. we put out relegation standard form in both run-ins

[oadby.fox]

I started to turn after the second top four collapse. The FA cup win papered over the cracks in a way though and even though I knew that the team was heading in the wrong direction, it would’ve been harsh to sack BR at that time.

 

Like others have said, it was the 4-1 defeat to Forest which should’ve sealed his fate. Outside of that game, the worries which were present in the previous seasons started to heighten and you could just tell it was all going off the rails. His interviews became increasingly erratic, the performances uglier, weak mentality, horrific injury record etc.

 

In any case, the more important question to ask is why people are still backing him. It shames me to admit that I know people who not only think he can keep us up, but also think that he will rebuild the squad and turn us into a comfortable top 10 side. As long as there are people who are as clueless as this supporting the club, then there is honestly no hope. It doesn’t take a football mastermind to figure out that letting him see his contract out will be more likely to result in consecutive relegations than a return to the top end of the table. Last season, we were really lucky and 8th flattered us. This season we are where we ought to have been last season in all honesty. I’ve already resigned myself to relegation now, there’s no fight anymore and the apathy around the club is so draining.

Edited 13 March 2023 by oadby.fox

[Nickaj]

2 minutes ago, oadby.fox said:

I started to turn after the second top four collapse. The FA cup win papered over the cracks in a way though and even though I knew that the team was heading in the wrong direction, it would’ve been harsh to sack BR at that time.

 

Like others have said, it was the 4-1 defeat to Forest which should’ve sealed his fate. Outside of that game, the worries which were present in the previous seasons started to heighten and you could just tell it was all going off the rails. His interviews became increasingly erratic, the performances uglier, weak mentality, horrific injury record etc.

 

In any case, the more important question to ask is why people are still backing him. It shames me to admit that I know people who not only think he can keep us up, but also think that he will rebuild the squad and turn us into a comfortable top 10 side. As long as there are people who are as clueless as this supporting the club, then there is honestly no hope. It doesn’t take a football mastermind to figure out that letting him see his contract out will be more likely to result in consecutive relegations than a return to the top end of the table. Last season, we were really lucky and 8th flattered us. This season we are where we ought to have been last season in all honesty. I’ve already resigned myself to relegation now, there’s no fight anymore and the apathy around the club is so draining.

This, absolutely this!

[oadby.fox]

9 hours ago, marbles said:

I can understand several turning points listed.

The ones I can’t understand, are the ones who claim we bottled a top4 finish.  Bottling would imply that it’s a given.  That’s it’s our place - we are NOT a top 4 team.  We were not a top 4 team the year we won the league.  That’s what made it so special - doing something that was not expected.

If you don’t have realistic expectations, you are never going to be happy with whomever takes over after BR is gone.

 

 

 

I think you’re missing the point of what people are identifying with the two collapses in terms of trajectory.

 

In both seasons, our destiny was in our own hands and we just had to put away the teams at the bottom end of the table in order to achieve top four. Instead, we suffered embarrassing defeats. On your definition of bottling, the only teams that can ever bottle are the ones which are winning trophies every season. By that way of reasoning, Man U have been a top team for the past decade but have just bottled the premier league every year. A more accurate view would be that Man U declined following Fergie’s departure and spent many years in relative obscurity/turmoil - we no longer expected them to even achieve top four or win the league because they never put themselves in a position to look likely.
 

Where we can “expect” or reasonably hope to be is where we should be given 1. Our form and squad strength relative to others; 2. The form of other teams around us and their relative squad strength; 3. Our run of fixtures. Given how many days we spent in the top four across two seasons and the position other teams were in, it’s not insane to suggest that we could expect to finish in the top four. Doing so required nothing more than the form of a mid table side, instead we were treated to something more like relegation form in the close of both seasons. Spurs aren’t called bottlers because we expect them to win a title each year and they fail, it’s because they’ve put themselves in pole position so many times only to fall to pieces when it matters. Being in such a position brings with it the expectation that you’ve now got the advantage such that you should go onto achieve whatever you’re in position for. Whether or not we were once a league 1 side is irrelevant. 

 

 

[kingcarr21]

I was willing to persevere with him, even after the Forest FA cup exit. We have played some great football under him.

 

I can't remember which game it was this season but as soon as he started throwing all the excuses out, blame the players, blame injuries, blame recruitment you could see he was saving face. Then there was 1 game where he blamed the fans. That was it for me. You can't deflect responsibility onto the fans. **** you. Absolute Scrote of a man.

 

I've had arguments with friends recently, Arsenal and Man U fans, that claim I am being a spoilt fan and he is an elite manager. People just do not see the downfall and for some bizarre reason Rodgers seems to get away with it. Unreal.

 

The sooner he goes the better. I would sooner be managerless 

[deep blue]

The first signs I saw were in Dec 2019 when, after a fantastic start to the season and we were 2nd to Liverpool, we played very timidly in successive games v Man City and then Liverpool, losing to both..  My thoughts then were that it's as if Rodgers thought we had overperformed to get to that point and we should accept our natural position in the pecking order below these 2 clubs and not challenge them too strongly.

 

There have been many instances since then of Rodgers accepting, almost promoting, limp performances, now more often referred to as "bottling".   We have by now perfected the art and ended up with a team with no fight or backbone;  can't help but feel that this reflects precisely Rodgers' character.

 

I wasn't "Rodgers out" in Dec 2019 and witnessed many great performances over the next 2 years, but there was always the shadow of his ability to bottle hanging over games that mattered, notably the collapses from 4th and 3rd at the death in successive seasons, both times when there was a seemingly unclosable gap between us and chasing teams.

 

"Rodgers out" crept up on me and I guess it's about 2 years ago when I could see only a slide down for us and I thought he'd come to the end of his tenure.

[Dames]

First top 4 collapse for me, I didn't think he was the man to take us forward and capitalise on the opportunity we had. 

 

Unfortunately that opportunity has gone and will probably never come back and we'll have to spend years cleaning up the mess he's left. 

[BenTheFox]

On 12/03/2023 at 07:39, Voll Blau said:

No manager of Leicester City should survive that Forest Cup defeat, especially in the context of us being holders at that time.

When we lost 5-1 to them under Pearson, it was different. We were both going for the play-offs and they were the form team in the league with Pearson getting it wrong that day playing really high-line, but it proved to be a one-off. Last season in the cup however was unforgivable. We went there with an undisputedly better side than theirs and we were outworked and bullied.   

[BenTheFox]

Forest in the cup was when I snapped and wanted him gone. The final straw for me however was Everton at home last season. 

[FoxyLeon]

The second he arrived and began changing the successful parts of the Club. It began right away with Congerton taking over the part of the Club that had recruited Kante/Vardy/Mahrez/Ndidi etc, then there was getting rid of a Medical team which somehow kept everybody fit for us for years....They seem to be doing the same at Bristol City too. It was obvious to me that he wasn't the right manager for us, right from the very start. Once you do a bit of research, you realise he regresses the Clubs he manages significantly.

[filbertway]

@marbles @so1 

 

Come on admit it, this is one user with two accounts right?

 

[norwichfox]

On 11/03/2023 at 17:46, Swarles Barkley said:

Interested to know for those who are Rodgers out, when was the turning point for you?

 

Likewise, if you think we’re going down, when did your head turn? 

I didn't want him in the first instance, there has been a few occasions that I thought he could develop us to the 15/16 levels...but somehow he managed to throw the oars out of the lifeboat.

[CosbehFox]

1 hour ago, BenTheFox said:

When we lost 5-1 to them under Pearson, it was different. We were both going for the play-offs and they were the form team in the league with Pearson getting it wrong that day playing really high-line, but it proved to be a one-off. Last season in the cup however was unforgivable. We went there with an undisputedly better side than theirs and we were outworked and bullied.   

When we have got a bad result under Pearson - he soon sorted it. 

 

Ironically we never lost at Forest under Pearson from that day forward - only one loss against them from that match with Pearson. 

 

Rodgers rolled out two performances of the same ilk at the City Ground in two seasons. 

[Stadt]

The underlying data has been showing the decline for a while, it's not been particularly sudden. My biggest concern with the club is this situation was totally avoidable but we're unbelievably inert. If Rodgers was sacked in the summer, the outlook would be a lot rosier atm.

[Fox92]

  

1 hour ago, BenTheFox said:

When we lost 5-1 to them under Pearson, it was different. We were both going for the play-offs and they were the form team in the league with Pearson getting it wrong that day playing really high-line, but it proved to be a one-off. Last season in the cup however was unforgivable. We went there with an undisputedly better side than theirs and we were outworked and bullied.   

We played them in December, we weren't going for the play offs that early. Forest had started the season slower than us and were only just in the top 6 going into that game. That season was great for us but that day was pathetic. There were two games we got battered that season along with West Brom away.

 

3 minutes ago, CosbehFox said:

When we have got a bad result under Pearson - he soon sorted it. 

 

Ironically we never lost at Forest under Pearson from that day forward - only one loss against them from that match with Pearson. 

 

Rodgers rolled out two performances of the same ilk at the City Ground in two seasons. 

We only won 2 games in 6 after the Forest defeat that season.

 

Pearson always did sort it, history has proved that, but he did go through periods of looking like he was unable too. Remember the second half of 12/13, it was awful.

[kingkisnorbo]

Yeah as others have said, the unrivalled ball ache of getting to Warsaw to then be served up that tripe compounded it for me. That was when the rot set in, the Forest cup game was the confirmation. 

[Fox92]

Anyway, Everton home last season was the game that changed my opinion.

[sylofox]

Wanted him gone the minute he started his borefest sideways backwards keep ball and do nothing.

 

Since he started the above tactics going down has only been a matter of time.

 

His throw everyone under the bus attitude has only accelerated relegation.

[CosbehFox]

2 minutes ago, Fox92 said:

 We only won 2 games in 6 after the Forest defeat that season.

 

Pearson always did sort it, history has proved that, but he did go through periods of looking like he was unable too. Remember the second half of 12/13, it was awful.

That stat doesn't particularly tell the full story there as because of weather those six games went from start of December to end of January. The win on Boxing Day had us playing a back four in the second half of Neilson, Morrison, McGivern and O'Neill. 

 

One of the losses was against a very good Swansea away. Then launched into a 8 game unbeaten run. 

 

I agree with your latter point - that loss at Barnsley during Easter looked the end but proved the spur. 

 

[Heskey2011]

On 11/03/2023 at 17:46, Swarles Barkley said:

Interested to know for those who are Rodgers out, when was the turning point for you?

 

Likewise, if you think we’re going down, when did your head turn? 

Honestly I read the Post horn gallop on Sunday and that tipped me over the edge. I almost always would rather stick than twist with mangers.  It's that positive mindset BR destroys with his negative attitude pre match.

[Babylon]

On 11/03/2023 at 17:46, Swarles Barkley said:

Interested to know for those who are Rodgers out, when was the turning point for you?

 

Likewise, if you think we’re going down, when did your head turn? 

No one turning point, it's been a steady drip drip drip of shite decisions and nonsense spouted since about Dec 2019 / Jan 2020. Was it Villa here we absolutely dismantled them in the league and then he changes the team and formation around for the cup game and we were shit. One of the first times I just thought this bloke hasn't got a clue. 

 

Constantly more concerned about other teams than what we were good at. 

[Jono1604]

3 hours ago, FoxyLeon said:

The second he arrived and began changing the successful parts of the Club. It began right away with Congerton taking over the part of the Club that had recruited Kante/Vardy/Mahrez/Ndidi etc, then there was getting rid of a Medical team which somehow kept everybody fit for us for years....They seem to be doing the same at Bristol City too. It was obvious to me that he wasn't the right manager for us, right from the very start. Once you do a bit of research, you realise he regresses the Clubs he manages significantly.

A bad decision by the owner that Rodgers was allowed to dismantle the excellent medical team we had here to bring in his own guys from Celtic who were not upto the job and subsequently have gone  and been replaced ! Compare the injuries before he arrived to now !