Older supporters

[Guest Fox99]

10 hours ago, Motty said:

i think that the singing section should be broken up into groups of 25 then relocated all around the ground. This would stop them from claiming that no where else has any fans singing. i turn 60 soon i am thinking of moving from sk2 to L1. Then i can get the stewards to make the singing section sit down as we are an all seater stadium at the minute. Surely those drumsticks need to be confiscated as they could be used as a weapon to beat anyone who does not sing or looks older than 40

We are all entitled to our views and though they may differ vastly, everyone in that stadium takes the time and effort to turn up and support the team how they see fit. 

 

In football, clearly there's different types of supporters as you have rightly touched on. Given that though, there has to be an accommodation for everyone (vocal fans, families etc). As much as people have their ideas of how they want the KP to be, it's entirely feasible to have an atmosphere to be proud of and at the same time fans rubbing along. It's dissapointing though to see some of the vitriol within the fanbase and whatever the club does for the stadium's atmosphere, unless there's more willingness to get along it will continue to be how it is now.

[Motty]

5 minutes ago, AlexFT said:

In football, clearly there's different types of supporters as you have rightly touched on. Given that though, there has to be an accommodation for everyone (vocal fans, families etc). As much as people have their ideas of how they want the KP to be, it's entirely feasible to have an atmosphere to be proud of and at the same time fans rubbing along. It's dissapointing though to see some of the vitriol within the fanbase and whatever the club does for the stadium's atmosphere, unless there's more willingness to get along it will continue to be how it is now.

I am in agreement with you

I filled in the questionnaire about the singing section to the club and i am happy for it to continue. its the assumption that "older fans dont sing or create an atmosphere" I have stated previously i have chanted Rogers out to be stared at like im the child catcher in chitty chitty bang bang. when the great escape was going on and the champions season. there was nothing wrong with the atmosphere then. so we have fans that want to sing even when we have the total sXXt wevare being served up now and those that are looking for more to get the juices going.

[PAPA LAZAROU]

I don't know. I'm  71. I never thought age would be a concern amongst our fans. Respect for those older than us was a given in my youth following days. Any criticism of our own fans by our fans never involved what age you were. Like many of my age, I have seen good times and bad times and listened to our dads and grandfathers moan or wax lyrical about the cub and its present predicament. but we said nothing. Now we have young supporters actually looking down on those old timers and lambasting them for not singing or even taking part in singing or other derogatory remarks ref their age. I love my club and always will. However, I don't love the modern game in fact I have fallen out of love with the game in general. It bears no resemblance to the game I loved all my life. So yes get rid of all us oldies and welcome too your VAR, play-acting money-grubbing new world of money-oriented corruption that now passes for football.

Edited 24 March 2023 by PAPA LAZAROU

[Guest Col city fan]

8 hours ago, Bob Hazels shorts said:

‘Older Supporters’??!!!

 

The level of ageism never ceases to amaze me.

 

It’s been drip fed in virtual every topic, non-more so than the singing section debate when anyone over 50 reading would think they are about to be put on a one-way trip to Dignitas

 

Why the lack of respect for supporters that have given decades of their lives following the club through thick and mostly thin?

 

This topic would be promptly dropped if it was aimed at any other element of society.

 

 

Great post and I think age is possibly the only ism this days that’s generally accepted (and still laughed at). 
Chuck age AND infirmity into that and you may as well be chucked on the scrap heap.

Come on here and be racist, sexist, homophobic in general and you’d be (quite rightly), vilified.

But talk about age, whether overtly or covertly, and no-one bats an eyelid really. 
It’s fascinating how various ‘isms’ go through trends and how people see one as being far more important than the other. Particularly as ‘age’ (and being affected by it, both in positive and negative terms) is something that affects us all. 

[Mr Weller 2]

I guess I’m an older supporter myself so I’m hardly against them. All I’m saying is you need younger and older fans together but because the stadium is mostly comprised of season ticket holders it’s skewed to wealthier and therefore older supporters who on the whole don’t make as much noise. 
 

Expand the stadium, the age balance is restored and hey presto the atmosphere improves.

[Mr Weller 2]

14 hours ago, PAPA LAZAROU said:

I don't know. I'm  71. I never thought age would be a concern amongst our fans. Respect for those older than us was a given in my youth following days. Any criticism of our own fans by our fans never involved what age you were. Like many of my age, I have seen good times and bad times and listened to our dads and grandfathers moan or wax lyrical about the cub and its present predicament. but we said nothing. Now we have young supporters actually looking down on those old timers and lambasting them for not singing or even taking part in singing or other derogatory remarks ref their age. I love my club and always will. However, I don't love the modern game in fact I have fallen out of love with the game in general. It bears no resemblance to the game I loved all my life. So yes get rid of all us oldies and welcome too your VAR, play-acting money-grubbing new world of money-oriented corruption that now passes for football.

Rose tinted spectacles my friend. If you think respect for older people was a given in the 1970s you must have been living in an alternative universe.

[Union FS]

21 hours ago, Bob Hazels shorts said:

‘Older Supporters’??!!!

 

The level of ageism never ceases to amaze me.

 

It’s been drip fed in virtual every topic, non-more so than the singing section debate when anyone over 50 reading would think they are about to be put on a one-way trip to Dignitas

 

Why the lack of respect for supporters that have given decades of their lives following the club through thick and mostly thin?

 

This topic would be promptly dropped if it was aimed at any other element of society.

 

 

We have members over that age in the section. 

Edited 25 March 2023 by Union FS

[worth_the_wait]

13 hours ago, Col city fan said:

Great post and I think age is possibly the only ism this days that’s generally accepted (and still laughed at). 
Chuck age AND infirmity into that and you may as well be chucked on the scrap heap.

Come on here and be racist, sexist, homophobic in general and you’d be (quite rightly), vilified.

But talk about age, whether overtly or covertly, and no-one bats an eyelid really. 
It’s fascinating how various ‘isms’ go through trends and how people see one as being far more important than the other. Particularly as ‘age’ (and being affected by it, both in positive and negative terms) is something that affects us all. 

Very true.
 
It sightly amuses me when you see organisations listing all the various attributes they don't discriminate against. (rather than just saying "we don't discriminate against anyone").
The implication being that if it's not on the list (race, sexuality, etc), then it can't be as bad.  That's obviously not overtly stated, but it's a logical covert implication.
 
Without writing down a list, I can think of lots of attributes where people are discriminated against, and I'm sure it's just as bad to the recipient as all the other commonly listed "protected attributes".
 
I prefer to go with the "treat everyone as you would like to be treated yourself", and hope I don't discriminate against anyone based on any real or perceived attribute.

 

[Guest Col city fan]

31 minutes ago, worth_the_wait said:

Very true.
 
It sightly amuses me when you see organisations listing all the various attributes they don't discriminate against. (rather than just saying "we don't discriminate against anyone").
The implication being that if it's not on the list (race, sexuality, etc), then it can't be as bad.  That's obviously not overtly stated, but it's a logical covert implication.
 
Without writing down a list, I can think of lots of attributes where people are discriminated against, and I'm sure it's just as bad to the recipient as all the other commonly listed "protected attributes".
 
I prefer to go with the "treat everyone as you would like to be treated yourself", and hope I don't discriminate against anyone based on any real or perceived attribute.

 

It certainly was ‘worth the wait’.

Great post 

👍

[PAPA LAZAROU]

23 hours ago, Mr Weller 2 said:

Rose tinted spectacles my friend. If you think respect for older people was a given in the 1970s you must have been living in an alternative universe.

yes or mixed with a better class of people than you.

[Mr Weller 2]

5 hours ago, PAPA LAZAROU said:

yes or mixed with a better class of people than you.

Probably 

[PAPA LAZAROU]

On 25/03/2023 at 08:25, Mr Weller 2 said:

I guess I’m an older supporter myself so I’m hardly against them. All I’m saying is you need younger and older fans together but because the stadium is mostly comprised of season ticket holders it’s skewed to wealthier and therefore older supporters who on the whole don’t make as much noise. 
 

Expand the stadium, the age balance is restored and hey presto the atmosphere improves.

Frankly, as an oldie, I feel the young fans of today are nowhere near as vocal and passionate as they were years ago. Those of us who remember how the old Filbo rocked with the Kop being like a Coldren even when we were poor ( which was most of the time) still look back and compare it to today. Incidentally, it was the young supporters in the eighties who brought the game nationwide to an all-time low with their hooliganism with the resulting fencing having to be erected around the pitch and we all know where that led at Hillsborough. None of which had anything to do with the " oldies "

Edited 26 March 2023 by PAPA LAZAROU

[purpleronnie]

32 minutes ago, PAPA LAZAROU said:

Frankly, as an oldie, I feel the young fans of today are nowhere near as vocal and passionate as they were years ago. Those of us who remember how the old Filbo rocked with the Kop being like a Coldren even when we were poor ( which was most of the time) still look back and compare it to today. Incidentally, it was the young supporters in the eighties who brought the game nationwide to an all-time low with their hooliganism with the resulting fencing having to be erected around the pitch and we all know where that led at Hillsborough. None of which had anything to do with the " oldies "

Getting the youngsters to look up from their phones would be a start.  We really lost the culture in England, the terraces went, the working class fans were mostly priced out, santitzed stadiums, over policed over stewarded, the fact that you couldnt even stand up without being hassled..a generation has grown up experiencing sitting in silence as the norm.

[Voll Blau]

39 minutes ago, PAPA LAZAROU said:

Frankly, as an oldie, I feel the young fans of today are nowhere near as vocal and passionate as they were years ago. Those of us who remember how the old Filbo rocked with the Kop being like a Coldren even when we were poor ( which was most of the time) still look back and compare it to today. Incidentally, it was the young supporters in the eighties who brought the game nationwide to an all-time low with their hooliganism with the resulting fencing having to be erected around the pitch and we all know where that led at Hillsborough. None of which had anything to do with the " oldies "

Maybe the oldies should have done a bit more to protect the factors that allowed them to be passionate and vocal - terraces, groups of mates being able to stand together, tickets cheap and easy to come by - so the generations below them could continue to enjoy then, eh?

 

You can't blame the young of today when the ability to be vocal and passionate has become so difficult due to factors beyond their control. The generations of supporters above them let them down.

[CosbehFox]

Worth remembering how when features such as tifos and singing sections which are an attempt at being more vocal, more passionate and more like a Kop end of old that they’ve faced such criticism as ‘I can’t see the players the run out’ or ‘I don’t want to leave my seat that I’ve sat in for multiple years’. 
 

When incidents showing passion have occurred recently in the singing section (which were a 5% of anything back in the day and nothing like the incidents were saw at the Napoli home game), it’s led to banning orders. 
 

Hooliganism began in 70s too. 

[CosbehFox]

1 hour ago, purpleronnie said:

Getting the youngsters to look up from their phones would be a start.  We really lost the culture in England, the terraces went, the working class fans were mostly priced out, santitzed stadiums, over policed over stewarded, the fact that you couldnt even stand up without being hassled..a generation has grown up experiencing sitting in silence as the norm.

The culture was lost on a number of complex reasons.
 

We had a Tory government who were on their last legs attempt to push through an election victory by attacking another demographic. They push police resources right onto football fans which didn’t begin to change until 1997 by which most of the stadiums were converted in the aftermath of the Taylor Report. 
 

Something had to change after Heysel Hillsborough and Bradford. Genuine football fans were so tired of trying against hooliganism etc that they never had chance to unite. Bizarrely something like the FSF only started to become a thing post Italia 90 when they had some success having an England Supporters Advice Bureau over in Italy. 
 

In the meantime, we’ve all stood back and let television dominate the game. I’m old fashioned here for being mid 30s but it’s why I find the clamour for a Netflix style football streaming service so utterly depressing and why the increasing threat of the blackout being scrapped is awful. 
 

We’ve created this game in its sanitised fashion sadly. 

[PAPA LAZAROU]

1 hour ago, Voll Blau said:

Maybe the oldies should have done a bit more to protect the factors that allowed them to be passionate and vocal - terraces, groups of mates being able to stand together, tickets cheap and easy to come by - so the generations below them could continue to enjoy then, eh?

 

You can't blame the young of today when the ability to be vocal and passionate has become so difficult due to factors beyond their control. The generations of supporters above them let them down.

Totally agree with you on that. I was just pointing out that its not the old fans' fault either.

[PAPA LAZAROU]

1 hour ago, purpleronnie said:

Getting the youngsters to look up from their phones would be a start.  We really lost the culture in England, the terraces went, the working class fans were mostly priced out, santitzed stadiums, over policed over stewarded, the fact that you couldnt even stand up without being hassled..a generation has grown up experiencing sitting in silence as the norm.

spot on.

[worth_the_wait]

27 minutes ago, CosbehFox said:

The culture was lost on a number of complex reasons.
 

We had a Tory government who were on their last legs attempt to push through an election victory by attacking another demographic. They push police resources right onto football fans which didn’t begin to change until 1997 by which most of the stadiums were converted in the aftermath of the Taylor Report. 
 

Something had to change after Heysel Hillsborough and Bradford. Genuine football fans were so tired of trying against hooliganism etc that they never had chance to unite. Bizarrely something like the FSF only started to become a thing post Italia 90 when they had some success having an England Supporters Advice Bureau over in Italy. 
 

In the meantime, we’ve all stood back and let television dominate the game. I’m old fashioned here for being mid 30s but it’s why I find the clamour for a Netflix style football streaming service so utterly depressing and why the increasing threat of the blackout being scrapped is awful. 
 

We’ve created this game in its sanitised fashion sadly. 

Not what sure it had to do with the Tories.
 
Football hooliganism was well-established by the late 1960's.   It got worse during the 1970's ... probably peaking in the mid/late 70's when most weekends resembled battlefields up and down the country.  Pitch invasions, mass punch-ups, pubs wrecked, trains and buses smashed to pieces, you name it.
 
Both Labour and Conservative governments tried everything to sort out the problem, but most of the time the lid was only kept on the violence through massive policing eg 500 police were on duty when we played Forest at Filbert Street in Sep 1977.
 
Increased policing, segregation, escorts back to the coach park and station, heavier fines and prison sentences, etc slowly improved the situation ... although there were still some major disturbances into the mid 80's eg Chelsea v Middlesbrough, Luton v Millwall, Birmingham v Leeds. (and many more).
 
The 39 deaths caused (mostly) by Liverpool fans at the European Cup Final in 1985 was the final straw.   The Government of the day had to act, and it wouldn't have mattered who was in power.   In the end, luckily, the proposed ID card scheme never came to fruition ... and hooliganism was largely defeated through vastly increased use of video film evidence, undercover police work, heavy custodial sentences (for the newly created offence of Violent Disorder), and various other initiatives from clubs.
 
The sad irony, is that 35 years after they were proposed and rejected, it looks like we're effectively getting "ID cards" via the back door ie via Mobile Ticketing, and ID checks at away matches.

 

[CosbehFox]

29 minutes ago, worth_the_wait said:

Not what sure it had to do with the Tories.
 
In the end, luckily, the proposed ID card scheme never came to fruition ...

 

You’ve taken an overall view which I agree with.
 

My point was more aimed at the Tories who in the late 1980s and early 1990s really went after hooliganism in a moral panic vote winner way.  Schemes as you’ve mentioned, Mohanyan with his selective views on Italia 90 and then went OTT with the recommendations of the Taylor Report. 
 

Other political parties would have acted no doubt about that - but I doubt they would have done it in a way that vilified a demographic of young males in the way they did. 
 

From that period they are some terrible parts of law which were passed whereby if involves football - you are subject to stronger punishments than if you do it in any other environment (ticket touting, drug use to immediately think to think of a couple). 
 

Anyway we are going for the subject which I think in essence we are both in agreement that the societal changes which occurred between now and then mean it’s far too easy to say we ‘lost the culture’ like it was something fans had a chance to fight for. 

[Heathrow fox]

2 hours ago, Voll Blau said:

Maybe the oldies should have done a bit more to protect the factors that allowed them to be passionate and vocal - terraces, groups of mates being able to stand together, tickets cheap and easy to come by - so the generations below them could continue to enjoy then, eh?

 

You can't blame the young of today when the ability to be vocal and passionate has become so difficult due to factors beyond their control. The generations of supporters above them let them down.

Ironically the one thing that did get major pushback was the ID card scheme.Here we are with the ID card scheme in all but name.Where’s the pushback now then?

[worth_the_wait]

9 hours ago, CosbehFox said:

You’ve taken an overall view which I agree with.
 

My point was more aimed at the Tories who in the late 1980s and early 1990s really went after hooliganism in a moral panic vote winner way.  Schemes as you’ve mentioned, Mohanyan with his selective views on Italia 90 and then went OTT with the recommendations of the Taylor Report. 
 

Other political parties would have acted no doubt about that - but I doubt they would have done it in a way that vilified a demographic of young males in the way they did. 
 

From that period they are some terrible parts of law which were passed whereby if involves football - you are subject to stronger punishments than if you do it in any other environment (ticket touting, drug use to immediately think to think of a couple). 
 

Anyway we are going for the subject which I think in essence we are both in agreement that the societal changes which occurred between now and then mean it’s far too easy to say we ‘lost the culture’ like it was something fans had a chance to fight for. 

As you say, we're in broad agreement on the overall situation.
 
But the point I slightly disagree with you is this ... both main political parties tried to tackle football hooliganism when it was in full swing from the early 70's (Labour 1974-79, Conservatives 1974-85), but neither really had any solutions.  Not least because it was a very difficult problem to "solve", based on mixture of over exuberance, passion, alcohol, gang peer pressure, social problems, rebellious behaviour, and other factors.
 
And amidst all the other problems of the 70's and 80's, football hooliganism was never absolute top of the list.   But after Heysel in 1985, it was.   All English clubs were thrown out of European competitions indefinitely, and our name was absolute muck around Europe.   Well it had been for years previously anyway, with followers of English club sides and the England national side causing mayhem wherever they went.
 
But with 39 deaths, it was now something that couldn't be tolerated, and stronger action had to follow.   As I say, any Government in power would have treated "The English disease" (as they called it in Europe) the same way.  It wasn't a political attack on the English working class young male population ... it was an attack on crimimal acts of violence that had killed scores of people, that had brought the English game almost to its knees.
 
(don't forget that even before Heysel, lots of people had been killed in the previous decade, so it was a serious problem.   Off the top of my head I remember a fan stabbed to death at a Blackpool v Bolton match, Leeds fans killed in fights at Tottenham and Forest, Chelsea fans killed in incidents at Swansea and Birmingham, Millwall fan killed on a station after a fight with West Ham fans, 2 Middlesbrough fans killed when a wall was pushed over v Man Utd, a fan killed after the Birmignham v Leeds riot in 1985.  There were probably others I've forgotten.)
 
The point being, you can't overestimate just how much a problem it was ... but when we "exported" the death and destruction to Europe, that's when it seriously had to change and more draconian action was the only realistic response.
 
In fact bearing in mind there were serious calls to shut down professional football altogether until the problem was sorted, we actually got off fairly lightly.   Even ID cards never made if off the drawing board.   English football slowly got its act together, and clubs were allowed back into Europe after 5 years (Liverpool were banned for another year).   
 
Hillsborough in 1989 was a separate issue, which accelerated the move towards all-seater stadia.   It's worth pointing out, however, that even by 1989 the trend towards all-seater stadia was accelerating.  UEFA were starting the push for all-seater grounds, English clubs were happy to go down the route of a more sanitised/safer/controlled environment, the Premier League with its sexy hype was just around the corner, so everything was moving in that direction (Government action or not).

 

[davieG]

12 hours ago, Voll Blau said:

Maybe the oldies should have done a bit more to protect the factors that allowed them to be passionate and vocal - terraces, groups of mates being able to stand together, tickets cheap and easy to come by

When have the club ever listened to the views of the fans - Never. 

 

Fair enough they probably do know what's best for the club financially but they've shown they know nothing about how fans want to view the game and be treated.

 

You can see now they may be happy to listen but it's all lip service and patronising.

[fuchsntf]

On 24/03/2023 at 18:45, AlexFT said:

In football, clearly there's different types of supporters as you have rightly touched on. Given that though, there has to be an accommodation for everyone (vocal fans, families etc). As much as people have their ideas of how they want the KP to be, it's entirely feasible to have an atmosphere to be proud of and at the same time fans rubbing along. It's dissapointing though to see some of the vitriol within the fanbase and whatever the club does for the stadium's atmosphere, unless there's more willingness to get along it will continue to be how it is now.

This often happen when,club hits a long poor patch…

everybody,wants to blame somebody,then in various ways,which then becomes the problem,causing various factions..Social-media (FT) being the strongest vehicle.

[fuchsntf]

On 24/03/2023 at 19:24, PAPA LAZAROU said:

I don't know. I'm  71. I never thought age would be a concern amongst our fans. Respect for those older than us was a given in my youth following days. Any criticism of our own fans by our fans never involved what age you were. Like many of my age, I have seen good times and bad times and listened to our dads and grandfathers moan or wax lyrical about the cub and its present predicament. but we said nothing. Now we have young supporters actually looking down on those old timers and lambasting them for not singing or even taking part in singing or other derogatory remarks ref their age. I love my club and always will. However, I don't love the modern game in fact I have fallen out of love with the game in general. It bears no resemblance to the game I loved all my life. So yes get rid of all us oldies and welcome too your VAR, play-acting money-grubbing new world of money-oriented corruption that now passes for football.

Yeh same as you I also feel like kicking back dirt…

but we suppose to be the mature,experienced wise old coots.despite those young

gunnies thinking actually believing they own the world like we used to,but we probably with more respect and understanding in our veins…

 

But they also like us are normal-Joe fans,have no grasp or responsibility of what’s happening around them. The loud mouth bullying “I know better” ,of some is to be taken with a pinch of salt,like the barroom loudmouth or even those within our cliques in our time but they were controlled by the cliques wit and harsh words…Yakity-yak of some never die.

 

Todays creed of media sell ,ignitite,belong to pushing that selfish egoistic mentality. There are now actualtop company consultancies that sell that brand of man-management, from top managers to bottom levels of workers on various courses,which was in our younger days rare to have..In fact nion non-exsistant…

Even office (I am an engineer) boys had their technical-references,but today there is that egoistic-soft- sell attacht to courses..

The most of the young ones have humble backgrounds,though there is some rage or other going around…which I don’t understand. In someways the younger generations 12-15s, 16-21,22-30,30-45,45-50s years of age

are less discrimitary,more open,even more understanding..

but with that,come that the minorities are larger,there are the ASBOs…that used to be controlled by the good-guys around the local street,but the law itself put paid to that..

 

Just watching UK-tv…complaining about youth on the street,

innocent or trouble-makers…FFs we had social-club activities,interfacing with youth & sport clubs.Gyms Easy to join non-sport groups,musicians etc,or just lads n lasses having somewhere to go,from 8 year olds to 20yrs…

Dedicated play areas on estates destroyed,from Maggie Thatchers cronies...Those communities over my 70yrs have been politically knocked & ripped down and through,when not given financial support actually being prevented out of god knows what exsistence..

I had volunteer friends 40 yrs ago,crying out of frustration ..full hard men who were “told” to give up their activities and halls..

 

I experienced once ( I was then 30) coming home ( New parks) to my parents…a group of lads sitting on a low corner wall,just talking,and then two policemen get out of the car,trying to tell & force the lads to move on and being quite aggressive to the lads..I never before had such or any type of conflict with the coppers,but this time ,there was some hassle,when they told me to stop interfering…that’s when I let loose…“These lads actually live in the house with the wall,

these 4 live in those houses not 50 meters away“…

and „oh“..!!  his father is a local counceller,his 2 brothers are policemen, his mother is away working in an hospital…

“who is being abrasive and going well OTT“.  And your type of policing helped to get rid of the big play area, closed down the club, & got rid of 2 policehouses over there all within 200 metres of each other..Oh please speak do speak to his father,if you still have a problem..My name is….Fuchsntf.

 

So the various younger generations after us also had their difficulties,with a very poor political environment..Saw massive changes within a short time,and not one in their favour,from high middle-class to working class…and monies misdirected…

Glad my mother & father are no longer with us,their fights or normal routines hard sacrifices given fpr a decent society erroded away..  on corrupt banana republic businessmen & their crony politicians..national & local..

So we all, young and old alike through sport should keep together……

and enjoy together listening to each other..

 

Edited 27 March 2023 by fuchsntf