Our Next Manager

[lcfcbluearmy]

1 minute ago, whoareyaaa said:

Judging by Saddlers comments the team is not exactly playing as a team when he used the words the players need to unite, so is un rest between players or no team spirit 

They spent more time arguing with each other yesterday than actually playing football definitely dosent look like a happy camp

[ealingfox]

I don't want Marsch at all but the extent of Leeds fans interest and apparent bitterness is a bit weird.

[Guest Mee-9]

1 minute ago, ealingfox said:

I don't want Marsch at all but the extent of Leeds fans interest and apparent bitterness is a bit weird.

They have this strange obsession with Bielsa, as if he is in the same mould of managers such as Ferguson, Wenger, Klopp, Clough etc. 

 

Ultimately he was a bloke who sat on a bucket, couldn't be arsed to learn the language of the team he was managing, and he got the sack like every manager does for not being able to turn around a sinking ship. 

[Tielemans63]

1 minute ago, lcfcbluearmy said:

They spent more time arguing with each other yesterday than actually playing football definitely dosent look like a happy camp

It really doesn't look like a happy camp.

 

I don't see how bringing in Marsch helps at all in that regard. I'd imagine that the players are as unimpressed with that appointment as we are and I think that will only bring further division when a handful roll their sleeves up and the rest hide behind the convenience of a really shit manager.

 

Let's be really honest, if you're a player in the team, are you enthused by this appointment? Of course you're not.

[Chelmofox]

10 minutes ago, whoareyaaa said:

Judging by Saddlers comments the team is not exactly playing as a team when he used the words the players need to unite, so is un rest between players or no team spirit 

I think Brendan created a split in the team between his favourites and the rest.  So Madders, KDH and Youri would have been in the favourite pool, and i imagine we are now in a position with that leader gone the team is split. 

 

Astonished me yesterday when they came out for the warmup that Victor was just doing keepy uppy kicks on his own. Madders, as captain was right next to him and just passed around with 2 other players. I think Rodgers left the team firmly split into several factions. 

Edited 9 April 2023 by Chelmofox

[cityfanlee23]

1 hour ago, BielsaIsGod said:

Yes - lots of us get what he was trying to do.  I watched it week after week from the upper East stand, which provides a good sense of what is happening on the pitch.  The problem with it as an approach is that it didn't work in the Premier League, perhaps one in every 5-6 games at most. 

 

The lad with his magnet board misrepresented the Marsch approach because by its nature a magnet board suggests some sort of static scenario based system, whereas in practice Marsch ball was a self defeating chaotic frenzy that just didn't deliver.

 

You did see what that lad showed as the Marsch press in the first ten minutes of most games when the opposition was feeling its way into a game and we maintained shape, pressed like demons, disrupted defensive passing and created chances on goal.  The problem is that EPL managers and players are (mostly) not complete donuts, and very quickly worked out how to deal with it as an approach, which resulted in us wasting the other 80 minutes of most games scrambling around trying to cope. 

 

As I don't have a magnet board or a YouTube channel, I'll summarise the problems with Jesse Marsch's football in words if I can (although the reality is far worse than it is possible to describe).

 

- it is fair to say that against elite teams - the top 5-6 in the league - sometimes it worked.  Our frenzied press on the ball led to them losing track of their patterns of play and allowing us to grab a few high profile wins.  Chelsea last August, Liverpool in October, but mostly better teams just passed around us and we ended up losing.  It wasn't that complicated, the press just didn't do what was pretended of it.  Those 2-3 decent performances against top teams are probably what kept Marsch in his job way longer than he deserved, mind.

- against most of the rest of the premier league dross who were willing to concede possession and sit deep waiting for a smash and grab goal (which sadly this year is most of them), we had no answer at all.  Marsch had no idea what to do in that situation. We actually looked worse against poor teams.   And because of our vulnerability to long balls over the top, as games went on teams willing to sit deep, give us the ball and then lump it forward when we lost possession tended to get those chances and because of our disorganised defensive shape, score.  Marsch teams do badly against relegation rivals.  Really badly.  At least we did.

 

- one of the reasons for us falling apart against these less decent teams was that Marsch's ball focused press pulled us out of shape, typically dragging all our defenders over to one side of the pitch or the other, leaving us vulnerable to the long diagonal ball over the top to the winger who then chipped the ball in to an advancing forward who nodded it in at the far post. We conceded game after game this way and Marsch never made any adjustments to address this flaw, which once worked out killed us.  It is interesting that our massively hated LB Junior Firpo has turned into the second coming of Roberto Carlos and a bit of a terrace favourite since Marsch left and he has been trusted by Gracia to play a somewhat more conventional game.  The lad with the magnet board pretended that the press prevented the long ball out.  It didnt.  The long ball out and over our press killed us time after time.  Everyone could see it but he just wouldn't acknowledge it.

I did touch on this as a concern about what went wrong at Leeds, but the part I can't understand is why does this not work at Leeds but works for many other counter-pressing teams. Liverpool full backs are constantly pushed forward with players unmarked right across the pitch. To me the issue is half arsed pressing in the midfield and inability to stop balls being sent diagonally. I'm not disagreeing that this was an issue, but many teams across Europe adopt a similar pressing style and don't typically face these issues, at the end of the day, in gegenpress the entire team has to press or it doesnt work.

 

- As a part of his theory of football Marsch likes getting the ball up field without control, conceding possession with the aim of then imposing the press, to try to force mistakes to create scoring opportunities.  But the nature of transitions of this sort is that the team is steaming up the pitch, they aren't in shape like the lad with the magnet board shows, so the disruptive press or dynamic net or whatever you want to call it rarely if ever worked, which meant that our defence was under pressure for long periods of most games.  Add in the issues with the long diagonal ball over the top being a magic button combination move to score against us, and the entire "philosophy" was close to suicidal.

I have no idea what you're talking about with the first line of this, I'd need to see evidence that Marsch has said his aim is to lose the ball just to win it back, i've not seen anything to suggest that is what he aims for unless that's just misworded on your part. The second part is correct that out of posession they try to force mistakes, as do Liverpool for example. The issue I have here is when you say "they aren't in shape" are you referring to the "net" system or referring to the 4231 formation, if you're referring to the 4231 then yes, they aren't "in position" because they are not meant to be stuck to that position. The entire point of being compact and creating triangles, is that in defense the triangles cut passing lanes during the press, and in attack the triangles provide fast passing options for players on the ball, this is not achievable in a 4231, which as i've mentioned before, is not typically how gegenpressing teams play during these transitions, most teams adopting counter-pressing are often out of traditional positions. Although I am the first to admit that unless executed well, the net system can be risky when losing possession, but it's not so much a fault of "the net" but how it's applied, and determining whether it's the fault of the players or the coach in applying it is often muddy water, I'd suggest it's a combination of both.

 

- the absolute hatred of wing play pushed our wide players (of which we've got loads, most of whom are pretty good tbf) narrow, which provided little or no support to our full backs, who were mostly nervous wrecks by the end of many games.  Not least because of all the balls over the top that we seemed to have no defence against.  Doesn't matter so much to us because our wingers are about as good as me and you anyway, our only decent winger cuts in every time anyway 

 

- when we did get the ball, usually from a turnover up the pitch as we didn't tend to play patiently from the back, the idea was to get the ball through to the penalty spot asap from midfield.  Against teams that congested midfield and defence, that would require Messi-level needle threading that just isn't possible for 99.99% of players.  We typically played some super fast intricate passes that amounted to nothing and then having hurtled forward and crammed all our players into the central zone of the pitch ended up seeing our LB or RB skinned by a winger who had received a long ball over the top.  As soon as we got a new manager in who allowed our wingers to actually go wide, we immediately started to look better as a team, both in attack and in defence. I think this is where the gegenpress can sometimes be stifled and I think Liverpool have adapted well to this where Leeds did not, and I do think Marsch needs to learn from this! Typically good players in midfield are able to effectively stifle the midfield which makes it difficult to play through the middle and you do need some players to offer some movement to pull players out of position, but with that said, say for example you're against a team, and you have 5 players narrow in the middle, the only way to counter that is for the opposition to also bring players narrow to cut passing lanes and push towards the ball carrier, which opens up passing options as the opponent is out of position. And if you then lose the ball, you already have players in those areas to quickly regain posession, in theory this works, and in reality it works for many clubs all over europe, I know we often say the premier league is different, and it can be, but we do often discredit the quality of player that exists in countries like Germany where this tactic is successfully used by many teams such as Leipzig, Dortmund and Bayern who are adopting this more. Germany developed this style and know how to counter it better than anyone, yet they are seeing a rise in this approach rather than a decline. It will be very interesting to see if you have a new manager bounce or not. 

 

Perhaps his football style does work in a league where managers are less sharp in terms of tactical adjustments, or the team you are managing has players who are several levels above their opposition.  Or defences are less disciplined and more prone to mistakes.  But it is a terrible fit for the EPL.  It is flawed beyond belief.  But he never ever reflected on that failure or made any adjustments or changes at all.  Ever. If he was not changing anything then that is an issue, but to suggest counter-pressing and fast narrow play "doesnt work" simply isnt true. Newcastle are one of the most direct teams in the league at the moment and they have been getting narrower, St Maximin was a traditional winger that now rarely plays wider than the 18 yard box line. Brentford are also very narrow, under Ten Hag, united have also got narrower. Brighton are one of the most pressing teams in the league. I think the issue comes with finding the balance of the Width, unfortunately we have no wingers capable of offering it anyway. 

 

One reason for all of this is perhaps because he is hugely lazy.  From his interviews over his time at Leeds it was clear that unlike many other managers he didnt put much time into researching or preparing teams. He set up the same time after time.  Early on in his time he was asked about how he would deal with various problems with the team from previous games and it was clear he hadn't even bothered to watch them back.  This isn't a "he isn't Bielsa" thing - our new manager, Javia Gracia (who may or may not keep us up) clearly carefully prepares us for every game and sets up to compete with whoever we are playing, adjusting as necessary.  Marsch never showed any evidence of that.  Most of the time when asked about game preparation, he just talked about "taking pressure off the players" and "playing without fear" when it was clear from a few games in that he was the one who was falling apart not the players.  FWIW he seemed to spend way too much time out in Harrogate with his other half midweek when he might have been putting effort into technical analysis and match prep, but maybe that was just his way of coping with his problems operating in a high pressure environment like the EPL.  Whatever, it didnt work for us as a club. 

Saying Jesse Marsch is "hugely lazy" is just lazy in itself, suggesting he didnt research or prepare is just simply not true. You might want that to be true, but in the modern era, premier league teams invest stupid amounts of money into preparing and researching opposition, the entire Red Bull ethos that he has been schooled in has completely shifted a new era of thorough data analysis that was never pushed to those sorts of limits before, Jesse Marsch is incredibly detailed according to people he has worked with like Rangnick, or just watch him talking about in podcasts he's done whilst working for Salzburg, he's one of the most analytical managers i've seen (although admittedly you don't really see a huge amount of tactical analysis from managers available to the public). You may think he is lazy and has not bothered to research because he sets up in a certain way, but don't mistake having a strict system to not bothering to research. The same with Rodgers here, we did the same regardless of who was in charge, but not for one second do I believe LCFC don't pour countless hours into researching and preparing. 

 

I think that's probably enough.  Perhaps Marsch will have reflected and learnt from what didnt work at Leeds.  But given his personality and approach that seems highly unlikely.  He speaks well and starts out as a little bouncing ball of positivity and energy.  But before long it becomes clear that he is fairly clueless and non-reflective, has no idea of how to fix stuff that obviously isn't working, cannot handle pressure at all well, and - eventually - alienates the players in a big way.  Most of our fan base now see him as having been an absolute fraud and spoofer.  Some took longer than others to get to that point, but by the end nearly everyone could see it, in and out of the club.  It was notable that no players at Leeds wished him well or offered him thanks when he left the club.
I genuinely do hope he has learned his lessons, It's very clear that his system did have flaws that did not get fixed, I think that's also an issue with lots of managers, Jurgen Klopp for all of his success is incredibly stubborn and has struggled this season also having seemingly not bothered to try to fix mistakes, but often I think it comes down to a mixture of stubborn managers sticking to a system, and players not applying the system effectively. At the end of the day it has worked for Liverpool really well upto this point, but that doesnt mean it suddenly doesnt work. Don't mistake me trying to find reason to believe it can work for blind faith, I like Marsch but he's not my first choice, I'm not sure he would be my 5th, I think he will come good but needs time and a project, counter pressing is one of the most difficult systems to make work because it's so "new" compared to traditional formations and roles that it's still being developed. But I do like the direction and philosophy which is why I would like to see us try it, I'd much have preferred us to try it with a manager who is less aggressive with it and in the summer rather than when trying to survive. But I can't help but think ultimately sure there were flaws at Leeds and ultimately results didnt come, but that doesn't mean it doesn't work and never will. But it's a big risk.  Regardless, we have always had the best results when taking risks at this club, and our ethos needs to drastically change because the players we have can't be arsed, don't care and it seems to be like that up and down the club at the moment. Appreciate your detailed response, please don't do it again as it's Sunday 

Thankyou for such a detailed response also. I've responded within your response since your post is long and makes it easier to keep track of rather than replying with a wall of text. I need a lie down. 

Edited 9 April 2023 by cityfanlee23

[sacreblueits442]

2 hours ago, Chelmofox said:

Any idea who the preferred option, and option 2 were? I presume the preferred was Rafa but not sure who option 2 was?

.. I would have assumed Potter would have been number one!!!

[Pub breath]

19 minutes ago, ealingfox said:

I don't want Marsch at all but the extent of Leeds fans interest and apparent bitterness is a bit weird.

You should have seen it leading up to his departure.  Christ.

 

Football fans seem to get very personal about people they don't actually know in the game.  Bielsa was adored probably more for his ethics, humility and lack of ego than he was for the brand of football we played under him.  Marsch is a completely different character and full of hubris and dramatics.  The contrast was jarring and hatred bubbled up in a way I've rarely seen towards a manager before.  It was visceral and seemingly all consuming for some.

 

Looks like many are having a hard time letting it go.  I'll be honest with you, most Leeds fans cannot believe that another PL club is going to give him a chance.  There is genuine flaberghasting going on around this, such is that I'll feeling.

 

 

[Chelmofox]

Just to be clear, we have had our last rendition of when you're smiling. Against Wolves we're going to have to learn the following words:

 

Oh, say, can you see
By the dawn's early light
What so proudly we hail'd
At the twilight's last gleaming?

 

Have to say, looking forward to the cheerleaders though.

[WoodyFox]

9 minutes ago, cityfanlee23 said:

Thankyou for such a detailed response also. I've responded within your response since your post is long and makes it easier to keep track of rather than replying with a wall of text. I need a lie down. 

[MalletFox]

26 minutes ago, Mee-9 said:

They have this strange obsession with Bielsa, as if he is in the same mould of managers such as Ferguson, Wenger, Klopp, Clough etc. 

 

Ultimately he was a bloke who sat on a bucket, couldn't be arsed to learn the language of the team he was managing, and he got the sack like every manager does for not being able to turn around a sinking ship. 

Hahahahahaha!!!

[DezFox]

The cookies on the LCFC Twitter feed, already working well, offering me a pair of grey skinny jeans 😂

[volpeazzurro]

31 minutes ago, Mee-9 said:

They have this strange obsession with Bielsa, as if he is in the same mould of managers such as Ferguson, Wenger, Klopp, Clough etc. 

 

Ultimately he was a bloke who sat on a bucket, couldn't be arsed to learn the language of the team he was managing, and he got the sack like every manager does for not being able to turn around a sinking ship. 

I think you'll find he could speak English well. 

[jayfox26]

Whoever comes in, I feel they need to clear out the coaching staff and start a fresh with their own team. The likes of Stowell and Sadler have been here too long now and possibly got too comfortable, so I'd just have a full reset. The medical team probably needs a whole reset as well as there is no excuse for the amount of injuries we've had over the past 2 years. Some can't be helped but when we keep seeing players with muscle injuries, then questions should be asked. Not sure how easy it is to have a full reset though and the best people in any role, won't want to come here. If Top doesn't want to sell and actually wants to try and rebuild us back up then he needs to show some accountability and get rid of anyone who hasn't done their job, especially in the boardroom. 

[StanSP]

32 minutes ago, Tielemans63 said:

It really doesn't look like a happy camp.

 

I don't see how bringing in Marsch helps at all in that regard. I'd imagine that the players are as unimpressed with that appointment as we are and I think that will only bring further division when a handful roll their sleeves up and the rest hide behind the convenience of a really shit manager.

 

Let's be really honest, if you're a player in the team, are you enthused by this appointment? Of course you're not.

We have absolutely no idea what the players are thinking about it. They might welcome fresh ideas also? Someone who's a bit more motivational and believing in them? Someone who likes to play football not cautiously or so defensively? 

 

He's known to be quite a good motivator. Perhaps more so than Rodgers, anyway... 

[winteriscoming]

According to Tanner the club are exploring other options as well as Marsch. 

[Matt_Lcfc]

I still think that he’ll be appointed, but I find it interesting how it has gone from an imminent arrival to us now ‘exploring other options.’ 
 

I reckon that there is an element of the club pushing the story through journalists like Percy and Tanner to gauge social media reaction amongst fans. Either way though, the clock is ticking and we desperately need to get somebody through the door.

 

Feel sorry for Sadler and Stowell. They seem to be getting quite a lot of flack on social media, but it isn’t their fault that we are in this predicament. This almost feels like an impossible job, and when you couple that with the fact that neither have the managerial experience, it makes for a difficult situation.

 

I can’t help but feel that the absence of any concrete plan is going to cost us massively here.

[Mike Oxlong]

2 minutes ago, winteriscoming said:

According to Tanner the club are exploring other options as well as Marsch. 

Shame. I was looking forward to the club emails with photos of team bonding over a sausage and egg mcmuffin at McDonalds 

[Guest Mee-9]

20 minutes ago, volpeazzurro said:

I think you'll find he could speak English well. 

Why the lack of interviews in English then?

 

If we had a manager like that I’d feel hugely disconnected from him. 

[Blue ROI]

1 minute ago, Mike Oxlong said:

Shame. I was looking forward to the club emails with photos of team bonding over a sausage and egg mcmuffin at McDonalds 

It looks like that process has already begun. 

 

Expect Nigel Worthington back knowing this lot. 

[Lesta Legend]

1 minute ago, Mee-9 said:

Why the lack of interviews in English then?

 

If we had a manager like that I’d feel hugely disconnected from him. 

He does speak English perfectly well. 

[Chelmofox]

12 minutes ago, winteriscoming said:

According to Tanner the club are exploring other options as well as Marsch. 

I mean, seriously?!?! We have no frekin time. Insane.

[Jonaldinho]

I suspect it's well worth listening to the Leeds fans about both Marsch and Bielsa for the same reason it's worth listening to the Leicester fans about Rodgers. It's almost universal here that Rodgers should've gone months ago and has systematically destroyed the ability and confidence of what was a couple of years ago a good team, yet the media and non-Leicester fans bleat about how he's a good manager and hasn't been backed.

 

Leeds fans will have watched the team every week under both Marsch and Bielsa and seen how they present themselves in press conferences, respond to the fans, etc. All my Leeds friends hate Marsch and adore Bielsa. Yes you could argue whoever replaced Bielsa had an impossible job such is their level of adoration for him, but Marsch's tactics have been roundly pulled apart.

 

The fact we're still considering others despite Marsch being keen to manage us even in the Championship shows we are unconvinced. The fact is we can't continue with Sadler and Stowell and it seems no one else wants it. What are our options? If we do go for him, for the love of God give him an 18 month contract and not three years. 

 

 

[CastagnesLasagnes]

I think they'll lose their bottle with this - think if we'd have won yesterday they'd had rolled the dice, but even they will be questioning whether Marsch is the right man for the championship

Edited 9 April 2023 by CastagnesLasagnes

[Stinkenzo]

4 minutes ago, Chelmofox said:

I mean, seriously?!?! We have no frekin time. Insane.

I count there as being two weeks until our next proper game tbh