The ashes 2023

[Izzy]

4 minutes ago, StanSP said:

Elaborate! I know he's a fairly attritional character that loves the sound of his own voice, and only that, but what texts?! 

https://www.skysports.com/cricket/news/12123/11773332/kevin-pietersen-mistake-to-send-texts-to-south-africa-but-it-was-just-banter
 

[Simmo86]

6 minutes ago, StanSP said:

Elaborate! I know he's a fairly attritional character that loves the sound of his own voice, and only that, but what texts?! 

Was texting the South Africa team whilst playing for England in a series against South Africa

[RowlattsFox]

There is a lot of hindsight in cricket. Many different decisions may have lead to different outcomes but we Will never know. 

 

It's bit them in the arse but England have created a result there. With the rain that is a nailed on draw in most circumstances. 

 

It's being forgotten a bit but that's a big chase by Australia in not more than 3 actual sessions. 

 

They should never have got as close to our first innings score as they did and hour longer of Root, Stokes and Brook yesterday probably bats them out of the game. 

 

The best teams are too good for this approach to work in my opinion, but its certainly making test cricket entertaining. 

[steve555]

1 hour ago, Simmo86 said:

Wasn’t guaranteed to score another 30/40 though was he. He could’ve been out 2 balls later and we would’ve declared anyway.

Could have been, who knows, but you don't do that against the Aussies, it'll come back to bite you . Against Sri Lanka , West Indies etc. you probably get away with it . It was being radical just to be different, sometimes just do the 'normal'  thing. Said at the time it could back to haunt & it did ( along with picking the wrong keeper).

[goody2028]

Don’t know how so many are defending the declaration. 

[Simmo86]

40 minutes ago, steve555 said:

Could have been, who knows, but you don't do that against the Aussies, it'll come back to bite you . Against Sri Lanka , West Indies etc. you probably get away with it . It was being radical just to be different, sometimes just do the 'normal'  thing. Said at the time it could back to haunt & it did ( along with picking the wrong keeper).

I didn’t comeback to haunt to us, blaming the declaration for 40 or so runs we could’ve scored for the loss is shortsighted. Nobody was complaining when we had them 60/3 early day 2. The 2 biggest momentum shifts were when we had them in a pickle 1st innings and we fluffed are chances and when we we’re cruising 2nd innings and we threw our wickets away. Those are what the players control, not imaginary runs we may or may not have scored.

 

This is the way we play now and it can be frustrating but it’s certainly better than watching  lose playing the conventional way.

[Guest Chocolate Teapot]

36 minutes ago, goody2028 said:

Don’t know how so many are defending the declaration. 

Because its the same approach that's won us 12 out of the last 15. You go with what you thinks right.

 

I reckon Ben Stokes knows more about cricket than most of those criticising it. Even most of those commentating - he's literally won it all so I'm backing him over KP who couldn't even win over a dressing room.

[Stinkenzo]

3 minutes ago, Chocolate Teapot said:

 

 

I reckon Ben Stokes knows more about cricket than most of those criticising it.

may as well close the thread then unless we have any former or current international captains hiding amongst us?

[CosbehFox]

For the declaration, look at England’s no balls column on the extras. 23 runs plus a wide too. 
 

That’s more of a difference for me 

[filbertway]

Well I thoroughly enjoyed that. Had we not been a shambles in the field it'd have been a different result.

 

Not much of a cricket fan, but I can definitely get on board with this style of play, it's right up my street. High risk, high reward.

 

I tend to keep up with the scores and watch odd bits, but I found myself sat there for hours at a time watching this one. Will continue to watch more if there is more of the same

 

[CosbehFox]

The psychology of this series is very intriguing given that test. England should be looking at the way an Australian team were constantly on the back foot rather than feeling sorry for themselves. 

[Simmo86]

25 minutes ago, filbertway said:

Well I thoroughly enjoyed that. Had we not been a shambles in the field it'd have been a different result.

 

Not much of a cricket fan, but I can definitely get on board with this style of play, it's right up my street. High risk, high reward.

 

I tend to keep up with the scores and watch odd bits, but I found myself sat there for hours at a time watching this one. Will continue to watch more if there is more of the same

 

My mum and stepdad have never watched a day of test cricket in their lives and they’ve been glued to it for 5 days.

[goody2028]

53 minutes ago, Chocolate Teapot said:

Because its the same approach that's won us 12 out of the last 15. You go with what you thinks right.

 

I reckon Ben Stokes knows more about cricket than most of those criticising it. Even most of those commentating - he's literally won it all so I'm backing him over KP who couldn't even win over a dressing room.

Completely respect that and not claiming to know more than any one  I just don’t see the difference it would have made batting out those last 2 wickets, especially to lose by 2? 

[Ian Nacho]

I’ve got not qualms with the approach. If we try and play the Aussies at their own long game, they’ll win the series 5-0, they’re a much better traditional test side. 

[leicsmac]

Pretty gutting, we had the match in our hands on a few occasions there.

 

But like other people, I have no issues with the approach - it was a failure of execution, not of planning. Go again, as hard or harder, and work on the errors. As per above, we try to take on Aus in a more "traditional" way with this team, we lose - the times before we changed styles says that very clearly.

 

The spinner is an issue that needs to be worked on ASAP, though.

 

3 hours ago, Stinkenzo said:

may as well close the thread then unless we have any former or current international captains hiding amongst us?

Speaking purely for myself, but I thought the rest of the post was worth addressing too - especially the winning 12 from 15 (after only winning 1 from 13 before) part.

 

[jaqo88]

Those mentioning that we would lose to Australia playing a ‘traditional approach’. 
 

We haven’t lost a home Ashes series in 20+ years, why does the wheel need re-designing to such an extent and why would we be guaranteed to lose by playing on green tops to suit our swing kings ? 

Edited 21 June 2023 by jaqo88
Wording

[leicsmac]

5 minutes ago, jaqo88 said:

Those mentioning that we would lose to Australia playing a ‘traditional approach’. 
 

We haven’t lost a home Ashes series in 20+ years, why does the wheel need re-designing to such an extent and why would we be guaranteed to lose by playing on green tops to suit our swing kings ? 

It's a fair question to ask.

 

Can't speak for anyone else, but...

 

That was then and this is now. Right now, Aus are the best team in the world and deservedly so, they saw off a very good India side in these conditions with ease not too long ago, and while England haven't lost a home Ashes series in 20 years, the last one was drawn. I don't see how going toe to toe with them in the "traditional" way, playing to their strengths, would give us any better chance (especially when doing so led to such a terrible record - 1 win in 17, including quite a few home losses to opposition inferior to Aus) before all the style changed.

 

England may not have won this match, but they were in a position to do so several times, and that they didn't was a failure of execution, not planning, IMO. The current style of play is effective, against the Aussies and everyone else. But it would be better, yes, if we had a greener pitch next time.

[Milo]

Best game I’ve seen in years. 
 

Thoroughly enjoyed watching that. Fair play to the Aussies - that was a pretty big 4th innings run total to chase down in any circumstances, let alone a high pressure ashes match. 
 

And the million ‘what if’s’ only adds to the fun/pain, imo!

 

Bring on Lords

[Phil Bowman]

9 hours ago, goody2028 said:

Don’t know how so many are defending the declaration. 

Because they know that, as a rule, unless the other team is way, way weaker than you, to win a Test match you have to take the risk of losing it.

Ultimately to win it you have to either bowl them out or reach a target, and giving yourself time to do that gives them the chance to either reach a target or bowl you out.

[Phil Bowman]

8 hours ago, CosbehFox said:

England should be looking at the way an Australian team were constantly on the back foot rather than feeling sorry for themselves. 

I'm sure they are. I've seen nothing to suggest England are feeling sorry for themselves.

And any England fans who have loved their recent performances really shouldn't be complaining too much about this one. It was a cracking match which they nearly won, and the occasional narrow defeat kinda comes with the territory of this Bazball stuff.

[leicsmac]

5 minutes ago, Phil Bowman said:

I'm sure they are. I've seen nothing to suggest England are feeling sorry for themselves.

And any England fans who have loved their recent performances really shouldn't be complaining too much about this one. It was a cracking match which they nearly won, and the occasional narrow defeat kinda comes with the territory of this Bazball stuff.

It's telling that two of the three defeats suffered under this style have come with very, very narrow margins.

[Phil Bowman]

2 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

It's telling that two of the three defeats suffered under this style have come with very, very narrow margins.

Indeed.

(I think my criticism of Bazball may have been excessive btw. Also I'd forgotten how much I always enjoy the Ashes (I always forget how much I enjoy the Ashes, then they come round again and I remember!)).

There are things I strongly dislike about modern cricket, but they're not really Bazball's fault. And to some extent I can overlook them for the Ashes.

[Guest Chocolate Teapot]

10 hours ago, Stinkenzo said:

may as well close the thread then unless we have any former or current international captains hiding amongst us?

I'm not against that tbh.

 

I get the chat about the declaration in the first innings and that the approach is too gung ho, but I honestly believe there's a lot of bitterness in the cricket community that 'you can't play like this' which is absolute nonsense. Ponting is completely bitter that he's seeing an Australia side out ego'ed by England. This will wind them up no end down under, they already think Cummins is too woke and much of the reaction has been about how Bazball is dead, and they think they've won the ashes.

 

The lack of ego in the Aussie side was actually a huge benefit to them in this game to be honest, and fair play to them for sticking at it. Don't underestimate the chat back home though - last time we snatched a win from the jaws of defeat we got steamrollered next game such was the emotional toil.

 

When you lose a game by 2 wickets on the last half hour of 5 days i'm not sure that's about a declaration though. England have already said they won't play for draws and if the first match petered out into a draw I think that would actually be more of pyschological blow to England than anything else. There's massive positives to be taken from that game - taking 18 wickets on the flattest pitch with a spinner with no finger, your all rounder on one leg and three medium pacers is no mean feat against the best side in the world. Wood has to play next game, I'm not sure I've ever seen Anderson look so non-threatening.

 

For me it comes down to the basics, we made mistakes whereas the Aussies didn't - if Bairstow dives to his left and Broad doesn't bowl a no ball that's 80 runs out of the game, another 24 on other no balls. There's probably another 80 runs out there on the other mistakes. 

 

Given the comments flying around and the idea that England need a win at all costs approach from some of the  cricket journos, it amazes me that they've still not got it. We've just had an Australia side on the ropes for 4 and a half days and it's taken a miraculous performance from their number 10 to win it - normally it's us nicking it in the last minute. 

 

I'm sure they will but I really hope Stokes and co just ignore it and keep doing what they're doing, Australia produced basically a flawless display and i'm not sure even they can keep doing that - the approach England play means there's very little margin for error in the opposition. Two years ago I was losing my shit as we watched India steam roller us whilst we tried to play 'proper test cricket', I'd much rather witnessing what I watched yesterday than trying to play for time. **** that.

Edited 21 June 2023 by Chocolate Teapot

[Lako42]

If you want to play bazball against the top sides then you need to be serious with your fielding and wicket keeping. 

 

You can't get away with dropped catches and sluggish slips when the margin is so fine. 

 

The declaration wasn't the problem but you do need top level fielding to go with it. 

[Phil Bowman]

5 minutes ago, Lako42 said:

If you want to play bazball against the top sides then you need to be serious with your fielding and wicket keeping. 

 

You can't get away with dropped catches and sluggish slips when the margin is so fine. 

 

The declaration wasn't the problem but you do need top level fielding to go with it. 

True, but it's also true whether you're playing Bazball or not.

'Catches win matches' has always been the case.