Leicester City £100m action plan revealed in worst-case scenario

[MPH]

20 minutes ago, The Doctor said:

Ok then, you're not smart enough to avoid devolving into contrarian nonsense??

 

A lot of clubs faced challenges from the collapse of ITVDigital, we were the only ones who had the storm of a premier league wage bill, new stadium and lawsuit from a former player who alongside his lawyer rejected a payment plan to service the debts, filing a winding up petition and causing us to have to opt for administration vs ceasing to exist. Our playing budget was non existent already that season, we signed two free agents on pay-as-you-play deals and tried to sell everyone we could but many rejected moves (e.g. Muzzy Izzet, £6m bid accepted from Middlesbrough but he turned down the move to get us back up). You talk as if we delayed going to administration when we knew it was inevitable to get an unfair advantage, but we didn't, we went in when a single creditor rejected a repayment plan having not invested in the squad at all, instead selling as many as we could to make up the deficit (but as we found the last couple of years, you can't force other teams to bid for players and can't force players to agree to those moves).

A comment like this reveals more about you than it does me. no need for personal insults. I’m not sure why people can’t just have discussions and understand that people see things differently.

Edited 31 October 2023 by MPH

[Chrysalis]

I think teapot made good points and I cant find myself getting behind this.

 

To me its simple, we were relegated because we were not good enough, the manager had lost the plot and the owner wasnt on the ball in changing the manager when he had a chance earlier in the season, no if's and but's, we just were not good enough.

[The Doctor]

3 minutes ago, MPH said:

A comment like this reveals more about you than it does me. no need for personal insults. I’m not sure why people can’t just have discussions and understand that people see things differently.

I said you were smarter than that, you highlighted that comment specifically and told me not to give you that bullshit???

[Aus Fox]

11 minutes ago, Chrysalis said:

I think teapot made good points and I cant find myself getting behind this.

 

To me its simple, we were relegated because we were not good enough, the manager had lost the plot and the owner wasnt on the ball in changing the manager when he had a chance earlier in the season, no if's and but's, we just were not good enough.

The question is, would we have been good enough had Everton been forced to balance the books?

We were the final team relegated, we made it clear due to FFP we couldn’t improve our squad, if Everton had done the same, would they have been 2 points worse off??

If we had the same disregard for FFP and brought in new players, could we have picked up 1 more win and stayed up?

 

Its all hypothetical and there is no way of telling for certain, but I can see where the argument is.

[Chrysalis]

Just now, Aus Fox said:

The question is, would we have been good enough had Everton been forced to balance the books?

We were the final team relegated, we made it clear due to FFP we couldn’t improve our squad, if Everton had done the same, would they have been 2 points worse off??

If we had the same disregard for FFP and brought in new players, could we have picked up 1 more win and stayed up?

 

Its all hypothetical and there is no way of telling for certain, but I can see where the argument is.

Doesnt matter, we were shite, move on.

Edited 31 October 2023 by Chrysalis

[MPH]

1 hour ago, The Doctor said:

I said you were smarter than that, you highlighted that comment specifically and told me not to give you that bullshit???

I was of course talking about you trying to lay it on me that there was a disagreement that you couldn’t  get your head round and understand my point of view. Disagreements are ok. Difference of opinions are ok.

 

 But leave it there, chap. I have no interest  in talking to someone who thinks it’s ok to go  round calling people stupid.

[orangecity23]

12 hours ago, MPH said:

 

if the sky digital was such a main issue then other clubs would have gone into administration too would they not? 
 

and you’ve already mentioned we would have finished 2nd  with the point’s deduction but I explained that had we budgeted better ( without the sky digital money like every other club managed to do) then we would have had a smaller playing budget ( spent ,was money) and probably wouldn’t have accumulated  as many points.

 

ijust don’t buy the argument we were the only team that season effected by the issues around - every other team managed to avoid administration that season except amazingly tea treat striving for the riches of the premier league. 
 

spend, get to the prem, go into administration, restructure debts and pay them with our prem money.

 

 

it’s pretty obvious that’s what our plan was.

They did. From Wikipedia.

 

Effect on football clubs

ITV Digital's collapse contributed to Bradford City F.C. being put into administration

Following the proposed Football League merger, with the lucrative finances it proposed, ITV Digital's collapse had a large effect on many football clubs. Bradford City F.C. was one of the affected, and its debt forced it into administration in May 2002.^[61][62]

Barnsley F.C. also entered administration in October 2002, despite the club making a profit for the twelve years prior to the collapse of ITV Digital.^[63][64] Barnsley had budgeted on the basis that the money from the ITV Digital deal would be received, leaving a £2.5 million shortfall in their accounts when the broadcaster collapsed.^[64]

Clubs were forced to slash staff, and some players were forced to be sold as they were unable to pay them. Some clubs increased ticket prices for fans to offset the losses.^[65]

The rights to show Football League matches were resold to Sky Sports for £95 million for the next four years compared to £315 million over three years from ITV Digital, leading to a reduction from £2 million per season to £700,000 in broadcasting revenue for First Division clubs.^[66][67]

In total, fourteen Football League clubs were placed in administration within four years of the collapse of ITV Digital, compared to four in the four years before.^[67]

 

Just 15% of all the clubs in the Football League in admin as a result of ITV going under then.

 

You've got "the plan" all wrong as well. The club was promoted under O'Neill, and started planning a new stadium in 1998, but plans for Bede Island fell through, and the KP wasn't completed until 2002. So the plan was - get promoted, consolidate club in top league, then plan and build a new stadium during the O'Neill years, the clubs most successful period to date where we were a well established Premier League team. If this wasn't a "sensible" time to build a new ground, when exactly should a club of our size planned a new ground? 10 years in the prem? 20 years? Never, as we can never fully rule out relegation so we should have stayed at Filbert Street forever?

 

The problems arose due to Peter Tayor making a horlicks of succeeding O'Neill, then going on to blow all the Heskey and Lennon cash on dross. And even before he finished stuffing everything up, the season before we went down he had us top of the league at one stage, and on a long FA Cup run (that he eventually stuffed up against Wycombe).

 

So to sum it up - we didn't "spend big" until AFTER promotion. Even when we were up, we hardly paid large transfer fees for anyone (under O'Neill, the highest fees paid were for the likes of Eadie and Elliott, and you are still talking <£2 million), and even when Taylor spent more later, it was funded by the 16 million of fees received for Heskey and Lennon. As has previously been explained, the biggest expense was the ground, and it was planned during a stable period of top flight football.

 

Were you actually following the club during this period, or was this before your time? It was quite the memorable period at the time, things like the Bede Island plans falling through, were all over the Mercury at the time.

 

 

[MPH]

55 minutes ago, orangecity23 said:

.

 

Were you actually following the club during this period, or was this before your time? It was quite the memorable period at the time, things like the Bede Island plans falling through, were all over the Mercury at the time.

 

 

 

yes. I remember the last goal at filbert street ( piper) and I was there for the friendly against Bilbao too with Jordan Stewart scoring in the draw for the first goal at the walkers ‘ bowl’ *shudders*

 

I think we were the only prem/ relegated team to go into administration? Other clubs were from the lower divisions i think and were already struggling.. my point always was that we didn’t adjust our budgets accordingly knowing we were in the doodoo. Also, if I remember correctly, we didn’t even pay for the stadium fully- the company that built it missed out on the last payement of over 5 million Because of our woes? That’s the sort of thing I didn’t like about it all- stadium finished, administration and not even paying the full cost of the stadium.

Edited 1 November 2023 by MPH

[davieG]

8 hours ago, MPH said:

Also, if I remember correctly, we didn’t even pay for the stadium fully- the company that built it missed out on the last payement of over 5 million Because of our woes? That’s the sort of thing I didn’t like about it all- stadium finished, administration and not even paying the full cost of the stadium.

That was the result of of Wise and Hall suing us and forcing us into administration. The other option of liquidation of the club would have led to the demise of LCFC and to even more associated businesses not receiving their due payments and an unfinished stadium that no one would seriously want. The club were between a rock and a hard place and chose survival and not to let Wise and Hall benefit from the outrageous  attempt to extort Money from us.

 

I know I said I'm out but a little balance seems to be warranted.

[foxile5]

12 minutes ago, davieG said:

That was the result of of Wise and Hall suing us and forcing us into administration. The other option of liquidation of the club would have led to the demise of LCFC and to even more associated businesses not receiving their due payments and an unfinished stadium that no one would seriously want. The club were between a rock and a hard place and chose survival and not to let Wise and Hall benefit from the outrageous  attempt to extort Money from us.

 

I know I said I'm out but a little balance seems to be warranted.

The club also reneged on payments to local businesses and contractors. It was pretty sour and we didn't cover ourselves in glory - lots of people haven't forgotten that.

 

Obviously, there were reasons beyond being rubbish at paying bills that led to it; it was also a different world in terms of football finances and the way they operated.

 

However, the fact remains that we weren't exactly pristine in the financial fair play before that was a thing. Teams in the Championship that next season had every right to feel aggrieved. We kept a basically Premier League squad that deferred wages until promotion even though we were financially in the cart. it was fairly ugly financial gamesmanship.

 

[davieG]

10 minutes ago, foxile5 said:

The club also reneged on payments to local businesses and contractors. It was pretty sour and we didn't cover ourselves in glory - lots of people haven't forgotten that.

 

Obviously, there were reasons beyond being rubbish at paying bills that led to it; it was also a different world in terms of football finances and the way they operated.

 

However, the fact remains that we weren't exactly pristine in the financial fair play before that was a thing. Teams in the Championship that next season had every right to feel aggrieved. We kept a basically Premier League squad that deferred wages until promotion even though we were financially in the cart. it was fairly ugly financial gamesmanship.

 

If Wise and Hall hadn't sued us we had a plan to survive and would have paid those debts over time, we did not choose to go into administration we were forced too by their actions.

[ClaphamFox]

44 minutes ago, davieG said:

If Wise and Hall hadn't sued us we had a plan to survive and would have paid those debts over time, we did not choose to go into administration we were forced too by their actions.

It's astonishing how often people neglect to acknowledge this fact. I've lost count of the times I've had to explain to supporters of other clubs that we did not choose to go into administration - it was imposed on us by the poison dwarf and his cigar-chomping spiv of an agent. We could have gone out of business - that was a very real possibility. Nobody at the club regarded admin as a convenient way of reducing our debts and carrying on as normal - they were terrified that it could mean the end of us as a football club.

Edited 1 November 2023 by ClaphamFox

[leicsmac]

48 minutes ago, davieG said:

If Wise and Hall hadn't sued us we had a plan to survive and would have paid those debts over time, we did not choose to go into administration we were forced too by their actions.

 

4 minutes ago, ClaphamFox said:

It's astonishing how often people neglect to acknowledge this fact. I've lost count of the times I've had to explain to supporters of other clubs that we did not choose to go into administration - it was imposed on us by the poison dwarf and his cigar-chomping spiv of an agent. We could have gone out of business - that was a very real possibility. Nobody at the club regarded admin as a convenient way of reducing our debts and carrying on as normal - they were terrified that it could mean the end of us as a football club.

Absolutely.

 

However, that the club was in such a precarious financial position that it could be toppled by one lawsuit from that player and their agent was not down to those two individuals.

 

IMO there were a variety of factors and culpabilties going on in that very dark time, and even though we're all Leicester fans here (or most anyhow) it would be remiss to stick our heads in the sand and not consider that one of those factors and responsibilities was financial mismanagement by our club that did hurt people and businesses.

[bmt]

Sorry to get sidetracked, but as I was pretty young at the time. How the **** did Wise win that unfair dismissal case? 

[MPH]

1 hour ago, davieG said:

That was the result of of Wise and Hall suing us and forcing us into administration. The other option of liquidation of the club would have led to the demise of LCFC and to even more associated businesses not receiving their due payments and an unfinished stadium that no one would seriously want. The club were between a rock and a hard place and chose survival and not to let Wise and Hall benefit from the outrageous  attempt to extort Money from us.

 

I know I said I'm out but a little balance seems to be warranted.

 

Wise only got 2.1m from us. In the grand scheme of things, that’s really not that much..

[orangecity23]

48 minutes ago, MPH said:

 

Wise only got 2.1m from us. In the grand scheme of things, that’s really not that much..

Look at the Wikipedia article I posted. 2 million is the entire tv budget for championship teams at the time. He got more than an entire season of TV revenue, and then on top of that the TV revenue disappeared! It was a lot of money back then.

[when_you're_smiling]

37 minutes ago, bmt said:

Sorry to get sidetracked, but as I was pretty young at the time. How the **** did Wise win that unfair dismissal case? 

Tin foil hat on  - The three-man FA appeal panel that ruled going into a room and punching someone twice should only have been dealt with by a two week fine included a former Wimbledon player (Robbie Earle, though admittedly I think Wise left a few months before Earle joined) and an ex Forest manager and future chairman (Frank Clark).

 

I don’t blame other supporters for forgetting the ITV Digital collapse and how having just dropped from the Prem, we were in the worst possible place to suffer from that. Any team will struggle if they suddenly have no money from TV.

 

 

 

 

[orangecity23]

BBC article on us winning the appeal is linked on wiki, and still readable all these years later

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/teams/l/leicester_city/2264274.stm

[foxile5]

47 minutes ago, davieG said:

If Wise and Hall hadn't sued us we had a plan to survive and would have paid those debts over time, we did not choose to go into administration we were forced too by their actions.

Oh I'm aware of that. But to suggest this all lies on one lawsuit is a bit disingenuous.

 

The fact a club could be folded, a Premier League club, by one spurious lawsuit really speaks to a financial management. We didn't WANT or CHOOSE to, of course. The fact we were FORCED to just highlights the poor management of the club. 

 

And also your argument entirely avoids the chicanery of the championship season. We didn't choose administration but we definitely chose to ride roughshod over the rules for our benefit. 

[Tommy Fresh]

1 hour ago, bmt said:

Sorry to get sidetracked, but as I was pretty young at the time. How the **** did Wise win that unfair dismissal case? 

I was also probably too young to fully understand the ins and outs, but I heard Alan Rogers (I think) say the club initially fined Wise, and then backtracked and tried to sack him. How true that is I've no clue. 

[davieG]

1 hour ago, leicsmac said:

 

Absolutely.

 

However, that the club was in such a precarious financial position that it could be toppled by one lawsuit from that player and their agent was not down to those two individuals.

 

IMO there were a variety of factors and culpabilties going on in that very dark time, and even though we're all Leicester fans here (or most anyhow) it would be remiss to stick our heads in the sand and not consider that one of those factors and responsibilities was financial mismanagement by our club that did hurt people and businesses.

 

18 minutes ago, foxile5 said:

Oh I'm aware of that. But to suggest this all lies on one lawsuit is a bit disingenuous.

 

The fact a club could be folded, a Premier League club, by one spurious lawsuit really speaks to a financial management. We didn't WANT or CHOOSE to, of course. The fact we were FORCED to just highlights the poor management of the club. 

 

And also your argument entirely avoids the chicanery of the championship season. We didn't choose administration but we definitely chose to ride roughshod over the rules for our benefit. 

I'm not excusing poor management rather that the creditors would have been worse off with us going out of business or into administration and that is down to Wise & Hall otherwise we could have eventually recovered and paid people their dues.

[foxile5]

51 minutes ago, davieG said:

 

I'm not excusing poor management rather that the creditors would have been worse off with us going out of business or into administration and that is down to Wise & Hall otherwise we could have eventually recovered and paid people their dues.

I would view that the club should still very much have paid them post-administration. 

 

We'd have had enough money because we were financially gaming the league the season after and the club would have known the creditors. Whether we did or not, I'm uncertain.

 

[BSLBPod]

20 hours ago, The Doctor said:

Correct. We'd agreed repayment plans with all other creditors, but Wise and Hall rejected it, and caused the club to have to file for administration instead 

Incorrect. we has this on our pod - worth a listen.

 

 

[MPH]

1 hour ago, orangecity23 said:

Look at the Wikipedia article I posted. 2 million is the entire tv budget for championship teams at the time. He got more than an entire season of TV revenue, and then on top of that the TV revenue disappeared! It was a lot of money back then.

oh I know in that respect but we had assets we could Have sold for triple that amount and more.. but that would have dented our promotion hopes and this is what I mean by we took the east way out by going into administration instead of budgeting accordingly.

 

 

Now guys I feel like I have answered every point and question raised and I’m aware people Do not like my answers.  I have said everything I need to say so it’s probably better for everyone if I don’t participate in any further discussions here as has been previously said we are going down rabbit holes and going round in circles. It was never my intention to make this an ‘MPH’s opinion thread’.

[st albans fox]

2 hours ago, BSLBPod said:

Incorrect. we has this on our pod - worth a listen.

 

 

so wise may have saved the club by sticking one on davidson!

love that little fella !