Barnes

[An Sionnach]

13 minutes ago, honeybradger said:

I think if you compare Barnes to someone like Grealish then you begin to understand what makes a great player and why Barnes is no where near that bracket. Barnes has 13 goals and 2 assists and Grealish has 5 goals 7 assists in the league, so if you just go by statistics then Barnes is the superior player. If you watch the two of those play then anyone with a pair of eyes would say Grealish is better at football. 

 

In a side like ours who already have a weak back 4, having a winger who doesnt track back is a death sentence. Yes Barnes has scored 13 goals but if we had a winger like albrighton playing in Barnes's position we probably score 15 less goals as a team but end up on more points by grinding out wins with some clean sheets. 

 

Realistically 30 mil is a fair price for a player like Barnes who is great at scoring goals but weak at everything else, if we can get 40 mil for him we can replace him with someone who score less but holds onto the ball better and tracks back (someone who most would say is a worse player than Barnes) and stay at the same level or perhaps even improve as a team, with money to spend on other players. At the end of the day what we want to do is make ourselves into the best team possible, not a collection of the best players we can collect put into a starting XI, which is what we ended up with last season.

I agree but any interested club will see him as a striker not a winger and tracking back might then not be a priority.

[OntarioFox]

1 minute ago, An Sionnach said:

I agree but any interested club will see him as a striker not a winger and tracking back might then not be a priority.

This is it - in a better set-up he doesn't need to track back and will flourish. Fact is, our midfield has been made out of matchsticks for far too long, exposing anyone we put on the wing except, as previously mentioned, Albrighton - and then only because he's the least attack-minded player we've had in those positions, so tracking back is easier for him.

 

You have to go back to Mahrez in our title winning year for the last time we've had a winger who could get away with piss-poor tracking back, and that was only because Danny Simpson was an absolute rock who never passed the halfway line.

[Nod.E]

A lot of people talking about his defensive shortcomings, but if you played him as a wide forward in a 4-3-3 with 3 workhorse midfielders behind him, you can get away with it.

 

Rather hoped we'd go that route without needing to carry Maddison and Tielemans in the midfield from a defensive standpoint, but understand we need to recoup the money from somewhere and he's one of our most valuable assets.

[lcfc sheff]

If he’s LF in the Liverpool team he scores 20 goals at least all comps. We’d do very very well to keep him and part of me hopes so (providing we have enough funds to improve the team elsewhere) but if not he has to go sadly

[lcfceed]

5 minutes ago, Nod.E said:

A lot of people talking about his defensive shortcomings, but if you played him as a wide forward in a 4-3-3 with 3 workhorse midfielders behind him, you can get away with it.

 

Rather hoped we'd go that route without needing to carry Maddison and Tielemans in the midfield from a defensive standpoint, but understand we need to recoup the money from somewhere and he's one of our most valuable assets.

He's technically gifted, good ball control, good at assists, can pass well, shoots and scores already from wide, ideal replacement for Madders behind the strikers? Giving him that importance might make him extend his contract next summer after promotion.

[Lambert09]

1 hour ago, EnderbyFox said:

 

I'd be much more confident of this if it hadn't been nearly a decade since we signed a decent winger 

well it doesn’t look like maresca uses traditional wingers anyway. That might solve our wingers problems 

[Fox92]

29 minutes ago, lcfc sheff said:

If he’s LF in the Liverpool team he scores 20 goals at least all comps. We’d do very very well to keep him and part of me hopes so (providing we have enough funds to improve the team elsewhere) but if not he has to go sadly

 

You could apply that statement to lots of players but at the end of the day there's a reason why they don't play for a top club.

[justfoxes]

2 hours ago, Rain King said:

Who is that bloke?

He’s a bloke I got to know a few weeks ago through friends he scouts under 10’s for Villa knows his football but bit of a piss taker since we went down !

[whoareyaaa]

1 hour ago, honeybradger said:

I think if you compare Barnes to someone like Grealish then you begin to understand what makes a great player and why Barnes is no where near that bracket. Barnes has 13 goals and 2 assists and Grealish has 5 goals 7 assists in the league, so if you just go by statistics then Barnes is the superior player. If you watch the two of those play then anyone with a pair of eyes would say Grealish is better at football. 

 

In a side like ours who already have a weak back 4, having a winger who doesnt track back is a death sentence. Yes Barnes has scored 13 goals but if we had a winger like albrighton playing in Barnes's position we probably score 15 less goals as a team but end up on more points by grinding out wins with some clean sheets. 

 

Realistically 30 mil is a fair price for a player like Barnes who is great at scoring goals but weak at everything else, if we can get 40 mil for him we can replace him with someone who score less but holds onto the ball better and tracks back (someone who most would say is a worse player than Barnes) and stay at the same level or perhaps even improve as a team, with money to spend on other players. At the end of the day what we want to do is make ourselves into the best team possible, not a collection of the best players we can collect put into a starting XI, which is what we ended up with last season.

I disagree, I don't think we can put Ward being absolutely useless to Barnes not tracking back or the useless defense and individual errors, every team needs one or two players who are purely attacking in our case it was Barnes and the striker.

 

If we keep Barnes then I think we will have more chance of going up next season than without him and that's worth a lot more than 30m quid 

 

 

Edited 20 June 2023 by whoareyaaa

[sacreblueits442]

36 minutes ago, lcfceed said:

He's technically gifted, good ball control, good at assists, can pass well, shoots and scores already from wide, ideal replacement for Madders behind the strikers? Giving him that importance might make him extend his contract next summer after promotion.

...suggested him to play there (#10) some seasons ago, if we keep  Nacho that might be where he ends up!!!

  No reason why 4-3-3 does not work for us, Barnes on the left, we bring someone on the right and Nacho is the number 9. 

  We need to play with  DM and two #8s for this, a pretty straight forward and balanced setup.

 

[whoareyaaa]

47 minutes ago, lcfceed said:

He's technically gifted, good ball control, good at assists, can pass well, shoots and scores already from wide, ideal replacement for Madders behind the strikers? Giving him that importance might make him extend his contract next summer after promotion.

I'd say if he was to move inside it would be the 9 similar to Vardy as he posses pace and can score, with Nacho in the 10.

 

but that's never going to happen anyway

[mozartfox]

2 hours ago, Rain King said:

Who is that bloke?

Don’t know, but for sure Aston Villa announce all their deals to their scouts before they happen…

[splinterdream]

1 hour ago, OntarioFox said:

This is it - in a better set-up he doesn't need to track back and will flourish. Fact is, our midfield has been made out of matchsticks for far too long, exposing anyone we put on the wing except, as previously mentioned, Albrighton - and then only because he's the least attack-minded player we've had in those positions, so tracking back is easier for him.

 

You have to go back to Mahrez in our title winning year for the last time we've had a winger who could get away with piss-poor tracking back, and that was only because Danny Simpson was an absolute rock who never passed the halfway line.

Danny Simpson was an old fashioned full back rather than the modern flying wing back, Mahrez didn’t track back, and Danny never came forward to overlap, it worked 

[volpeazzurro]

1 hour ago, OntarioFox said:

This is it - in a better set-up he doesn't need to track back and will flourish. Fact is, our midfield has been made out of matchsticks for far too long, exposing anyone we put on the wing except, as previously mentioned, Albrighton - and then only because he's the least attack-minded player we've had in those positions, so tracking back is easier for him.

 

You have to go back to Mahrez in our title winning year for the last time we've had a winger who could get away with piss-poor tracking back, and that was only because Danny Simpson was an absolute rock who never passed the halfway line.

A lot of this of course is down to the the use of players and tactics by the manager at the time. Ranieri essentially realised his strengths and played to them, your example of Marhez and Simpson being a great example. Using Vardy in the way he did as opposed to how Pearson did was another easy one.

 

Unfortunately, with Rodgers, he bizarrely put philosophy and system first without consideration to the suitability of the players he had to execute his ideas even if they were relevant ones.

 

Barnes, under the right coach/manager could improve again, like a number of our players,  which is part of the tragedy. We had a very decent squad of players when Rodgers arrived, largely didn't recruit suitable additions, and failed, in the main, to improve what we already had. Sadly, the price we're going to have to pay is losing good prospects like Barnes and Maddison who are still to hit their prime under the right man.

[PAPA LAZAROU]

1 hour ago, An Sionnach said:

I agree but any interested club will see him as a striker not a winger and tracking back might then not be a priority.

Agreed. I think he will play a completely different role when he goes to another club and will be a success.

[whoareyaaa]

1 hour ago, An Sionnach said:

I agree but any interested club will see him as a striker not a winger and tracking back might then not be a priority.

More of a wide forward than a striker

[Rain King]

1 hour ago, justfoxes said:

He’s a bloke I got to know a few weeks ago through friends he scouts under 10’s for Villa knows his football but bit of a piss taker since we went down !

Just wondered. I know of a bloke who claims he used to scout for Villa amongst others. Biggest bullshitter I've ever met. 

[Joe90lcfc]

7 hours ago, Leicesterpool said:

I won't be surprised if Barnes is still wearing a Leicester come first game of the season, I just get this sneaky feeling a lot clubs will leave this to wire to get a cheaper deal, knowing if Leicester are keen to sell. 

Mate don’t get your self excited like I have said in other threads I’d be amazed if he is still here come august 

[Joe90lcfc]

3 hours ago, justfoxes said:

Well that bloke who’s the scout for Villa recons today he’s heard from a very reliable source that  Barnes to Villa is almost a done deal didn’t mention how much but off to the Vile !

 

I very much believe this 

[TJB-fox]

Off to west ham

[ClaphamFox]

Off to Arsenal. Or Spurs. Or possibly Brighton. 

[dmayne7]

3 hours ago, honeybradger said:

I think if you compare Barnes to someone like Grealish then you begin to understand what makes a great player and why Barnes is no where near that bracket. Barnes has 13 goals and 2 assists and Grealish has 5 goals 7 assists in the league, so if you just go by statistics then Barnes is the superior player. If you watch the two of those play then anyone with a pair of eyes would say Grealish is better at football. 

 

In a side like ours who already have a weak back 4, having a winger who doesnt track back is a death sentence. Yes Barnes has scored 13 goals but if we had a winger like albrighton playing in Barnes's position we probably score 15 less goals as a team but end up on more points by grinding out wins with some clean sheets. 

 

Realistically 30 mil is a fair price for a player like Barnes who is great at scoring goals but weak at everything else, if we can get 40 mil for him we can replace him with someone who score less but holds onto the ball better and tracks back (someone who most would say is a worse player than Barnes) and stay at the same level or perhaps even improve as a team, with money to spend on other players. At the end of the day what we want to do is make ourselves into the best team possible, not a collection of the best players we can collect put into a starting XI, which is what we ended up with last season.

Would you? A more gifted footballer yes and more tactically astute but effectiveness; no.

 

Grealish isn't a passenger when not playing well unlike Barnes but 5 goals and 11 assists in 50 games (in an utterly dominant team) vs 13 goals and 3 assists in 40 games in a dire team shows how much more effective Barnes is. Now, that's an oversimplified way of looking at it and Grealish brings far more to the table but there's a difference between being a better footballer (i.e. technical ability) and being a better player. Grealish is marginally a better player but not by a lot at all. 

 

Would feel crazy to think that somebody would pay £60m for Barnes based on how easily he drifts out of games but then statistically, that's probably where he is. Again, different circumstances but Grealish went for £100m at the same age as Barnes with similar stats. So factoring in relegation, £40m would be great but crazily, also represents good value for the buyer.

[lcfceed]

2 hours ago, whoareyaaa said:

I'd say if he was to move inside it would be the 9 similar to Vardy as he posses pace and can score, with Nacho in the 10.

 

but that's never going to happen anyway

I always thought madders lacked a bit of pace

[Wymsey]

West Ham wouldn't be a bad shout, as they play in a way that'd suit him down to the ground.

[MPH]

Off to Hamilton Academical.