Tactics Under Maresca

[Ric Flair]

30 minutes ago, messerschmitt said:

Enzo said at the beginning of the season, the need to get more players in the box so I'm wondering why this seems to have stopped recently.

Ndidi and Mcateer were both good at getting in the box so that could be part of the reason.

Personally think he's shit it since the Sunderland game. He did not like the lack of control we had in that game and has issued stifling methods since. I hope I'm wrong, or he's realised the error and is busy correcting it.

[CosbehFox]

15 minutes ago, Ric Flair said:

Personally think he's shit it since the Sunderland game. He did not like the lack of control we had in that game and has issued stifling methods since. I hope I'm wrong, or he's realised the error and is busy correcting it.

Got a horrible gut with that and I’m praying it’s wrong. He had a huge similarity to the man who can’t be named and it worries me 

[filbertway]

13 minutes ago, Ric Flair said:

Personally think he's shit it since the Sunderland game. He did not like the lack of control we had in that game and has issued stifling methods since. I hope I'm wrong, or he's realised the error and is busy correcting it.

Seems to be the case.

 

Really hope he can avoid it. Our approach to games under Rodgers changed for the worse after the 2 beating from Man City and Liverpool. Aside from odd anomaly we were so much more passive and safety first.

 

Plenty of time for him to find the right balance and no real concerns yet, it's just something worth noting at the minute.

 

I never saw the Swansea game but the highlights seemed to be packed with us getting bodies forwards and causing them real trouble. I think we created more good chances in that game than we probably have in the 3 most recent games combined.

 

 

[Lillehamring]

1 hour ago, messerschmitt said:

I'd be amazed if we had the right players for the system given the short amount of time Enzo has had, and given the injuries to Doyle and Ndidi. I think the system is the way to go. People compare us to Man City but in my opinion, we are more like Brighton.

I also think this is a good thing as with a system, it's easier to replace players who move on.

We used to rely on players' brilliance before and they are not so easy to replace.

Yeah - it was clear that the priority was a spine (though it turned out we already had one part in jannik) and some width.  The 8s and strikers were always going to be placeholders, given that we had experienced players in those spots, even if they weren't/aren't quite right for the system.

 

It will be interesting to see - now that we know the system and manager work - how they act in the january window.

[Lillehamring]

32 minutes ago, Ric Flair said:

Personally think he's shit it since the Sunderland game. He did not like the lack of control we had in that game and has issued stifling methods since. I hope I'm wrong, or he's realised the error and is busy correcting it.

Or maybe the stifling methods were simply showing respect to two of the best teams we'll play this season?

 

Besides, stifling methods or not, we still could/should have taken points from both the boro and leeds games - personally i didn't feel the boro game was that different to most of the other games where teams have sat back, other than perhaps a note of caution in view of their ability to counter - we lost that becuase of the players misfiring not because of maresca.

[Lillehamring]

18 minutes ago, filbertway said:

 

I never saw the Swansea game but the highlights seemed to be packed with us getting bodies forwards and causing them real trouble. I think we created more good chances in that game than we probably have in the 3 most recent games combined.

 

 

If we're talking about quality chances, then we were definitely best in the swansea game, our xG was 1.9,  but it was 1.6 against boro and qpr, so not massively different; sunderland was 1.3 but in a game where we scored early and had to really just defend that lead, there wasn't quite the urgency/need for risk to push for a second.

 

The real stinker was the leeds game where it was 0.9 -  that said leeds' 1.4 was lower than we had against boro and qpr, and everyone is going on about how good leeds were going forward.

 

As far as general chances are concerned we had 14 shots against swansea, 11 against qpr and boro, again not that much difference.    For the same reason mentioned above we didn't have many shots against sunderland (8), but we were far more efficient with them, forcing 5 saves.

 

It feels a bit like the leeds game is defining the feeling towards the other four games (let's not forget that we got 1.5 points per game in these matches that would, after these 16 games be the equivalent of 24 points and 9th place) and I think it's dangerous to confuse us declining with the fact that, qpr, aside, that was a tough run of games.

 

 

[Ric Flair]

1 hour ago, Lillehamring said:

Or maybe the stifling methods were simply showing respect to two of the best teams we'll play this season?

 

Besides, stifling methods or not, we still could/should have taken points from both the boro and leeds games - personally i didn't feel the boro game was that different to most of the other games where teams have sat back, other than perhaps a note of caution in view of their ability to counter - we lost that becuase of the players misfiring not because of maresca.

We were poor going forwards vs QPR. I'm talking about committing players in to the box anyway, I still felt we attacked ok vs Middlesborough but there was a noticeable lack of support at times when we did create, which wasn't the case earlier in the season, nor vs Swansea and Sunderland.

[sacreblueits442]

3 hours ago, Ric Flair said:

Personally think he's shit it since the Sunderland game. He did not like the lack of control we had in that game and has issued stifling methods since. I hope I'm wrong, or he's realised the error and is busy correcting it.

...that is also how I see it, but this problem would have been encountered by Pep and an answer would have been worked out!!!

I did expect whatever was thrown at him would have been something he had previously encountered and it would not have fazed him. He seems to be looking at his ability to defend, with the midfield constantly looking over their shoulders.

[Lillehamring]

1 hour ago, Ric Flair said:

We were poor going forwards vs QPR. I'm talking about committing players in to the box anyway, I still felt we attacked ok vs Middlesborough but there was a noticeable lack of support at times when we did create, which wasn't the case earlier in the season, nor vs Swansea and Sunderland.

Sure, i think there has definitely been more caution in the last few games, but then these last few games have been amongst the toughest opponents we've played - even QPR i think are a tad underrated.

I'd like to think that it is just this rather than any kind of complacency or, ahem, 'shitting it'.  All those last four teams were capable of hitting us on the transition and i think (i hope) he sensed that and set us up to not get overexposed - at bottom, we only conceded 1 goal in open play in those games, and that was a scrappy thing rather than a counter.

 

But yeah, our forward play let us down in all those games - not helped by some sub-par efforts from, but not limited to, vardy, nacho and casadei. and not helped having to use ricardo as an 8 against boro.

[messerschmitt]

13 hours ago, Lillehamring said:

Yeah - it was clear that the priority was a spine (though it turned out we already had one part in jannik) and some width.  The 8s and strikers were always going to be placeholders, given that we had experienced players in those spots, even if they weren't/aren't quite right for the system.

 

It will be interesting to see - now that we know the system and manager work - how they act in the january window.

Yes, now Enzo has had a chance to have a decent look at the squad, it will be quite an insight to see what we do.

[messerschmitt]

10 hours ago, Lillehamring said:

Sure, i think there has definitely been more caution in the last few games, but then these last few games have been amongst the toughest opponents we've played - even QPR i think are a tad underrated.

I'd like to think that it is just this rather than any kind of complacency or, ahem, 'shitting it'.  All those last four teams were capable of hitting us on the transition and i think (i hope) he sensed that and set us up to not get overexposed - at bottom, we only conceded 1 goal in open play in those games, and that was a scrappy thing rather than a counter.

 

But yeah, our forward play let us down in all those games - not helped by some sub-par efforts from, but not limited to, vardy, nacho and casadei. and not helped having to use ricardo as an 8 against boro.

Yeah, I think it's a combination of players misfiring, as you pointed out, we still created chances, players missing and others covering and respect for tougher teams.

There should be a few questions answered with the next run of games and players returning and hopefully seeing Braybrook and Alves get some time.

oh, I forgot Cannon as well.

[messerschmitt]

14 hours ago, Ric Flair said:

Personally think he's shit it since the Sunderland game. He did not like the lack of control we had in that game and has issued stifling methods since. I hope I'm wrong, or he's realised the error and is busy correcting it.

I hope you're wrong too lol.

I remember a game, we were 3.0 up at half time but Brendan didn't like it.  At half time he changed it and was very happy with the 0.0. second half.

[Ric Flair]

2 hours ago, messerschmitt said:

I hope you're wrong too lol.

I remember a game, we were 3.0 up at half time but Brendan didn't like it.  At half time he changed it and was very happy with the 0.0. second half.

West Brom at home at the back end of 2020/21. That negativity seemed to stunt us for a while after that in the league and ultimately dropped out of the top 4.

[sacreblueits442]

4 minutes ago, Ric Flair said:

West Brom at home at the back end of 2020/21. That negativity seemed to stunt us for a while after that in the league and ultimately dropped out of the top 4.

...I  am no Rodgers fan, but at the time I  totally agreed with him that what we were doing on the pitch was overplaying and lacking discipline!!!

  What he wanted to see was clinical finishing and approach to the game, not fancy moves and over exaggerated passes.

If memory serves me we, were also wasteful against Arsenal around that time and should have beaten them but overplayed once again. This team was about to catch fire, the players did not understand that a clinical approach aligned with confidence was what he (Rodgers) was looking for. .

[LVFox]

16 hours ago, Ric Flair said:

Personally think he's shit it since the Sunderland game. He did not like the lack of control we had in that game and has issued stifling methods since. I hope I'm wrong, or he's realised the error and is busy correcting it.

I think he was right to be worried by the end of the Sunderland game. We went long far too often instead of being brave enough to play through their press and be on the front foot.

 

Agree however with common opinion thag our 8s have been no where near as attacking as earlier in the season and this needs correcting

[Ric Flair]

7 minutes ago, sacreblueits442 said:

...I  am no Rodgers fan, but at the time I  totally agreed with him that what we were doing on the pitch was overplaying and lacking discipline!!!

  What he wanted to see was clinical finishing and approach to the game, not fancy moves and over exaggerated passes.

If memory serves me we, were also wasteful against Arsenal around that time and should have beaten them but overplayed once again. This team was about to catch fire, the players did not understand that a clinical approach aligned with confidence was what he (Rodgers) was looking for. .

There's always that trade off between games being open because of the way you play and take risks vs taking less risks and keeping hold of the ball. The latter can often lead to over playing it anyway and the same mistakes of loose passes or poor execution of finishes. Its the mindset that's key and the way Rodgers reacted to this was very telling.

[sacreblueits442]

2 minutes ago, Ric Flair said:

There's always that trade off between games being open because of the way you play and take risks vs taking less risks and keeping hold of the ball. The latter can often lead to over playing it anyway and the same mistakes of loose passes or poor execution of finishes. Its the mindset that's key and the way Rodgers reacted to this was very telling.

...you are right, the mindset is the key!!!

  It was Evans I believe when interviewed stated that the players were aware of the record scoreline for the Premier league and the players set themselves a goal to achieve that. Rodgers himself was on the touchline in the driving rain encouraging his players. To have achieved what they achieved on that night, where they could have rested at 5-0 or less, took discipline,  as the whole team was working to a cause.

We needed to show that thought and mindset to the WBA game, we were comfortably in the lead but not the mindset to repeat the Southampton exploits.

  Irrespective of the quality of Southampton on that night, we set ourselves a target and worked incessantly to achieve it. All I, and I  believe Rodgers wanted, was for the team to adopt that mindset in that moment.

[filbertway]

8 minutes ago, sacreblueits442 said:

...you are right, the mindset is the key!!!

  It was Evans I believe when interviewed stated that the players were aware of the record scoreline for the Premier league and the players set themselves a goal to achieve that. Rodgers himself was on the touchline in the driving rain encouraging his players. To have achieved what they achieved on that night, where they could have rested at 5-0 or less, took discipline,  as the whole team was working to a cause.

We needed to show that thought and mindset to the WBA game, we were comfortably in the lead but not the mindset to repeat the Southampton exploits.

  Irrespective of the quality of Southampton on that night, we set ourselves a target and worked incessantly to achieve it. All I, and I  believe Rodgers wanted, was for the team to adopt that mindset in that moment.

Rodgers came out post match and said he was happy with the control in the 2nd half of the WBA game. A game in which we created a tonne of chances in the first half and almost nothing in the 2nd half.

 

I might be misunderstanding your post, but Rodgers was more interested in passes than goals in that WBA, whereas pre Liverpool/Man City - October 2019 Rodgers wanted his team to get forward and score goals.

[sacreblueits442]

2 hours ago, filbertway said:

Rodgers came out post match and said he was happy with the control in the 2nd half of the WBA game. A game in which we created a tonne of chances in the first half and almost nothing in the 2nd half.

 

I might be misunderstanding your post, but Rodgers was more interested in passes than goals in that WBA, whereas pre Liverpool/Man City - October 2019 Rodgers wanted his team to get forward and score goals.

...it is the way you go about the job that matters!!!

  You see the big boys when they are in the ascendancy, they are relentless and do not look to add any additional flair to how they play, just forensically dissect their opponents. 

  This may seem a silly analogy but, imagine if you were playing against 10-year-olds and your team (grown men) had to score 200 goals or every player on your team forfeit £1000.

  Perhaps for the first 5 or 10 minutes, you might want to showboat, but there is a job to be done, so you become more clinical in everything you do to achieve the goal.

  It is that mindset he is looking to instil, there is nothing to prove whilst showboating,  but developing a mindset where systematically ripping teams apart becomes the norm is something to cultivate.

Edited 22 November 2023 by sacreblueits442
Spelling error.

[messerschmitt]

2 hours ago, filbertway said:

Rodgers came out post match and said he was happy with the control in the 2nd half of the WBA game. A game in which we created a tonne of chances in the first half and almost nothing in the 2nd half.

 

I might be misunderstanding your post, but Rodgers was more interested in passes than goals in that WBA, whereas pre Liverpool/Man City - October 2019 Rodgers wanted his team to get forward and score goals.

That 's the way I remember it

[Ric Flair]

6 hours ago, sacreblueits442 said:

...it is the way you go about the job that matters!!!

  You see the big boys when they are in the ascendancy, they are relentless and do not look to add any additional flair to how they play, just forensically dissect their opponents. 

  This may seem a silly analogy but, imagine if you were playing against 10-year-olds and your team (grown men) had to score 200 goals or every player on your team forfeit £1000.

  Perhaps for the first 5 or 10 minutes, you might want to showboat, but there is a job to be done, so you become more clinical in everything you do to achieve the goal.

  It is that mindset he is looking to instil, there is nothing to prove whilst showboating,  but developing a mindset where systematically ripping teams apart becomes the norm is something to cultivate.

He was happier 2nd half because we controlled the game, despite creating a significantly less amount of chances than the 1st half where we supposedly were wasteful and showboated. That was often the case with Brendan, he was happier to attack less if it meant we might concede less chances, even though the longer he was here the worse our defence got and that mantra massively ran in to trouble.

[Sunbury Fox]

22 hours ago, Ric Flair said:

We were poor going forwards vs QPR. I'm talking about committing players in to the box anyway, I still felt we attacked ok vs Middlesborough but there was a noticeable lack of support at times when we did create, which wasn't the case earlier in the season, nor vs Swansea and Sunderland.

Feels weird to write this but I think Ndidi has been a huge miss in the box to box 8 role in recent games. His ability to turnover the ball high up the pitch as well as his energy to get around the pitch, including getting into the box regularly, was crucial to our good form up to and including the Swansea game. The other options in that position are markedly worse in these aspects of the game.

Edited 22 November 2023 by Sunbury Fox

[Gamble92]

On 21/11/2023 at 18:30, CosbehFox said:

Got a horrible gut with that and I’m praying it’s wrong. He had a huge similarity to the man who can’t be named and it worries me 

Apart from being bald what else does he have in common with Voldermort?

[Ric Flair]

1 hour ago, Sunbury Fox said:

Feels weird to write this but I think Ndidi has been a huge miss in the box to box 8 role in recent games. His ability to turnover the ball high up the pitch as well as his energy to get around the pitch, including getting into the box regularly, was crucial to our good form up to and including the Swansea game. The other options in that position are markedly worse in these aspects of the game.

I agree, in the short term Ndidi is very important to this team in wearing teams down and then the likes of Akgün or McAteer come on for him with 25 to go and we capitalise. 

[CosbehFox]

47 minutes ago, Gamble92 said:

Apart from being bald what else does he have in common with Voldermort?

Doesn’t rate Harry (Souttar)