Tactics Under Maresca

[CosbehFox]

1 minute ago, Kopfkino said:

Same issues as at Parma. Build up is too deep and the football is so risk averse, it’s basically catenaccio but with the ball. 

[majaco]

8 minutes ago, Lillehamring said:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Is this thread actually being moderated - none of these posts are discussing tactics, all belong in the post-match thread...

Thanks,  Mary Whitehouse 

[Blanchflower78]

6 minutes ago, Lillehamring said:

Do you honestly think that enzo sent them out at half time saying: 'whatever you do please don't score anymore goals; no - don't even try!'

 

Apart from some sloppy play at the start, and the inevitable hail mary from the opposition at the end, we completely controlled the game tonight - the problem was our inability to get the ball in the box - and it wasn't because we didn't think we needed to, it was because the players simply couldn't make the right decisions or play the right ball.

The game was riddled with poor play from a team supposedly running away with the league. We crumble under any form of pressure and numerous times we simply gave the ball away as the players stick to the game plan. Often at times when common sense would suggest playing the ball longer would be safer than running in to more trouble.

 

It's commendable to follow instruction but they look far too over coached and formulaic. Opposition now is sussing out so much of our positional play its becoming harder for the players to impose themselves. This is where Enzo has to step up and counter it.

 

We disagreed last week after Watford and I take no pleasure in saying again tonight things were painful far too often. We get incredibly lucky at times with forced errors not being punished and in truth this difficult patch may only help Enzo further reevaluate, as continuing as we are looks likely to become less fruitful.

 

Huge reaction on here tonight and interestingly many now suggesting tonight was the final straw in watching a style that simply is dull, uninspiring and fraught with danger too often.  

 

I genuinely want Enzo to work. He seems dedicated to his work and studious. We're approaching half way, so far the table doesn't lie but it is no way telling the full story here and will be interesting to see come May who's optimism or concerns were best placed.

[Basildon Fox]

22 minutes ago, goose2010 said:

Or 43 from 18 which is one of the best starts in the championship ever. 

 

We will get sussed out and it's about how you adjust and adapt. We have tweaked bits and then rotated. 

 

The system will not change so it's about getting the players to buy into it. 

 

Some still aren't up to it and that is obvious. 

And once again I will say, an average manager will push his belief and style onto a club.

 

A great manager works out a way to get the best out of what he has and adapts the team over time.

 

Just take the ****ing handbrake off and go at these teams. We have an obscenely talented squad compared to the rest of the division except probably Leeds.

 

 

 

[Ric Flair]

1 minute ago, An Away Move said:

Was it really though? Or more a result of an absolutely necessary rotation of squad in a very busy fixture period. We cannot play our strongest eleven in every match. It’s impossible. 

I think it was. I've no problem with rotation, maybe we rotated a bit too much in one go but that's understandable. 

 

The mis-control and poor passing from important players like Vestergaard, Winks, Faes etc was extremely disappointing. We seemed to struggle to deal with various basic patterns of play in and around our box, despite having a very experienced back line and defensive midfield. Poor performances can happen, I think our standards in that regard have dropped in the last 5-6 where we're not that good as often as we were.

 

Teams have started to gain confidence in it not being a forgone conclusion that we'll always win. We are being pressed more and we don't yet seem able to nullify it by opening teams up. We want to take more risks on the ball close to our goal than we do when we can look to break quickly, it's frustrating. 

 

I'm not naive enough to understand in this league especially, teams can toil both very strong and very weak. It's not an excuse though, I'll always look to analyse why it might be rather than double down it's inevitable and there's nothing to see here. That attitude is dangerous. Momentum in this league is wild. Teams can come from the bottom in the winter and get promoted.

 

I do have some nagging doubts about us and the football we play, but I also respect how good we've been defensively up to tonight and I hope Maresca may say we won't change but behind the scenes he's working to be one step ahead of our opponents who might think they've sussed us.

[Lillehamring]

2 minutes ago, Nod.E said:

System isn't the problem, it's personnel. 

 

We don't have the players for other systems, and where this system struggles is if you don't have creativity in the middle. It's exacerbated by teams coming and sitting deep against us.

 

I think given how strong we are at the back, though, we could tweak it. 

 

Take one of the midfielders out and play someone alongside (rather than in front of) Winks. With the inverted full back that still gives us three in the middle.

 

That frees us up to play Kelechi in between the lines. 

 

It's not perfect but at least we'd have some creativity centrally. Probably the best we can do until we go some way to replacing Maddison.

Do you mean one of the #8s? - the trouble is say you take out ndidi, who do you bring in alongside winks that's going to make us more creative - dennis praet?  in which case i'd rather just see praet play as an #8

I think extra players deep is not the answer, i think they way we're set up has, by and large, proven successful at breaking down deep set teams - but, as you say, the personnel is the problem - tonight casadei and yunus didn't offer enough and mavididi and fatawu just consistently failed to execute well enough, they both got into great positions with the ball but made either horrible shot choices (fatawu), or failed to pick out an opponent (mavididi).  Add to this vardy putting in another of his anonymous performances, and the few times he was released (with actually very good passes) he just didn't have the pace.

 

Kelechi isn't the answer, he seems to have given up.  i actually though mcateer looked good when he came on - i'd almost like to see him and marcal get a run out - genuinely can't be any worse...

[Sol thewall Bamba]

19 minutes ago, An Away Move said:

There’s an arrogance in our fan base being so down on a manager with Leicester top of the league with one of the best starts in the league’s history. 

Only one of them is affecting our chance to save the club from financial oblivion though

[Guest Chocolate Teapot]

He keeps saying we need to be more clinical but we're not even creating chances really. It's so risk averse.

[Free Falling Foxes]

9 minutes ago, nathan. said:

Unless Enzo is prepared to use more direct tactics when needed he wont last a year.

 

Its all way to passive and relaxed   

Indeed.

Tonight, as in previous matches, one of our midfielders receives a ball and has acres of space in front of him. Far too often however, he then passes it sideways, even back.

Surely he and others can see this and push forward at pace in these circumstances?

[Ric Flair]

14 minutes ago, Nod.E said:

System isn't the problem, it's personnel. 

 

We don't have the players for other systems, and where this system struggles is if you don't have creativity in the middle. It's exacerbated by teams coming and sitting deep against us.

 

I think given how strong we are at the back, though, we could tweak it. 

 

Take one of the midfielders out and play someone alongside (rather than in front of) Winks. With the inverted full back that still gives us three in the middle.

 

That frees us up to play Kelechi in between the lines. 

 

It's not perfect but at least we'd have some creativity centrally. Probably the best we can do until we go some way to replacing Maddison.

Don't have the players for other systems because he's fcuked all our full backs off and seems like he'd rather put pineapple on his pizza than ever use two strikers.

[An Away Move]

1 minute ago, Sol thewall Bamba said:

Only one of them is affecting our chance to save the club from financial oblivion though

On that basis it is so far so good. You’d have settled for where we are now at the beginning of the season, no?

[Sol thewall Bamba]

Just now, An Away Move said:

On that basis it is so far so good. You’d have settled for where we are now at the beginning of the season, no?

Would you have settled for where we are now 4 games ago though? 

 

Context is everything.

[Guest Kopfkino]

2 minutes ago, Chocolate Teapot said:

He keeps saying we need to be more clinical but we're not even creating chances really. It's so risk averse.

I don’t think he knows what a chance is. Our xG in Leeds, Boro and this has been average to poor and if you listened to Maresca you’d think it was France Gibraltar

[moore_94]

Just now, Sol thewall Bamba said:

Would you have settled for where we are now 4 games ago though? 

 

Context is everything.

Are we not allowed to have a bit of a wobble though?

 

We hit a bit of a rough patch and we already have people putting end dates on his career with us which just seems absolutely mental to me

[Chrysalis]

13 minutes ago, cityfanlee23 said:

Puel did the same thing, his first few months we were hitting teams on the counter and looking dangerous, and players like Gray were getting the ball at their feet and putting their head down and running, over time that slowed down significantly and that seems to be the same here but over a shorter period of time. 

I think we have owner influence on the game we play.

 

Its a thing in the game, some owners come out and admit they want to play a certain way, ours hasnt but all the appointments we have made, and that when managers start off playing one way and then change to me indicates influence from above them.

 

I do believe in playing out from the back as hoofed clearances usually come back at you, but there is no need to then play out from that point forward, once its under control and out of the danger area is when I think the game needs to be more direct, and that is indeed how teams like villa, Brighton and man city actually play.

We are doing this under Enzo occasionally which is where most of our goals have come from, and sometimes the team ups their intensity when they realise they need to like 2nd half vs Watford, but what I dont like seeing is passes into the midfield being pinged back to the defender without the player even looking to see a pass is on or a space he can run into whilst the game is at 0-0 or 1-0. KDH and Ndidi seem our two most consistent players now trying to get it forward, especially KDH who I now think is our most key player.  Both of those didnt start the last game.

Edited 29 November 2023 by Chrysalis

[Lillehamring]

14 minutes ago, Vazman said:

Correct answer, but the point is its happening far to often lately, something has to change or improve, it was a draw not the end of the world but it is worrying, that was not a pleasant watch or experience tonight.

Well, you'd hope that it is both - but i don't think our approach will change, we just need the application of the ideas to improve, and that will change things.

 

I didn't personally find it an unpleasant watch, frustrating, yes, because it was a game where we had them on the ropes, and where we got caught by a very poor sucker punch when it was too late to react.

We did enough of the groundwork to have extended our lead, but we didn't execute, and our game management at the end was, frankly, bottom of the league stuff - with hoofs and sliced clearances - but these are things that happen in sport, these are the things you learn from.  We are so far from the finished article and yet, clearly, a lot of our fans can't accept that.

 

 

[Vazman]

It seems the longer Enzo has to coach the squad the slower and more risk averse we become, someone mentioned Mavididi looks over coached, is everyone being over coached now, becoming to ponderous, and taking the easy side ways, rearwards passes, slow safe build ups, and trying to walk the ball safely into the back of the net.  I hope not, I expected more against Sheff Weds given their position and form, none of what I saw tonight was good, we deserved the outcome this evening.

[EastAnglianFox]

Puel didn’t wind me up this early….not even kidding

[hejammy]

13 minutes ago, Free Falling Foxes said:

Indeed.

Tonight, as in previous matches, one of our midfielders receives a ball and has acres of space in front of him. Far too often however, he then passes it sideways, even back.

Surely he and others can see this and push forward at pace in these circumstances?

There are a few players who do this more often than not. JJ, Ricky, Hamza mainly but others too. We pass it back when we don't need to, when often there is a clear forward pass to be made to someone who has acres of space. It's all a bit too "rehearsed" - just let them play with a bit more freedom. Over coaching seems to be the real issue here. 

[Lillehamring]

21 minutes ago, Pliskin said:

But it’s not that simple is it…. Especially when there’s fans who have a sound tactical grasp of the game…. Not just some happy clapper in a filbert the fox hat……

 

The philosophy Enzo is following may well be a good one, but only if it is used correctly…. Imagine buying a Ferrari, and then deciding to use it as a long distance car…. All of the time…. That’s essentially what it happening here…. It’s a bit Rodgers and Puel.
 

This team has pace to burn, but it lacks the technical ability to play how Enzo wants to, consistently well. 
 

Defensively we’re okay, but in terms of retention, Winks is the only one who looks really comfortable on the ball… the rest of the midfield excluding the wingers look like they’re being played out of position. We’ve got the best full backs in the league, pacy direct wingers and experienced strikers…. Yet, we’re playing a slow possession based game, which is now starting to cost us goals due to a large amount of errors…..

 

At some point you have to change something, and at the moment other than personnel we aren’t seeing this. 
 

The tempo is too slow, and when pressed we make more mistakes and are unable to control the game. So far out of all of the teams at the top, we look probably the most fragile at the moment. Enzo just needs to understand when the time is right to change something, and that’s it’s okay to change the system to benefit the team…. Because at the moment this style is to the detriment of it. 

I'm not sure how you can say that given the results we've had.

The fact is, we don't have a ferrari  - we have a moderately priced van - a practical, unappealing vehicle that performs a tedious but necessary function - ie. getting promoted.  and it's pretty clear that, so far, he has used the correct philosophy in the correct way -which is why we are top of the league.

 

The mission is to get promoted, winning the league is a bonus, winning it comfortably is just gravy.

 

Pace is a worthless commodity when you're facing ten men behind the ball, but i agree we lack the technical skill to use it - our counter attacking is very poor - but then, again, we're a van not a ferrari. 

 

I thought we started the game with far more urgency and a higher tempo than the watford game, and the result was a series of unforced errors.

 

I wouldn't say we're fragile, or no more than anyone else - everyone is having disappointing/unexpected results.

 

For everything that wasn't quite right tonight, something as simple as better game management could have got us 3 points.

[Nod.E]

10 minutes ago, Ric Flair said:

Don't have the players for other systems because he's fcuked all our full backs off and seems like he'd rather put pineapple on his pizza than ever use two strikers.

Some truth in that, but then I don't miss Luke Thomas. To be honest most systems struggle without creativity in the middle. Liverpool made it work but always had world class players in their 3 up top, and kind of got away with it as they had the top assisting full back maybe ever in Trent. Ultimately they've addressed that problem in the past couple of windows.

 

Remember we were in for McAtee but didn't get our man. I'm sure Maresca views that type of player as the missing piece.

 

13 minutes ago, Lillehamring said:

Do you mean one of the #8s? - the trouble is say you take out ndidi, who do you bring in alongside winks that's going to make us more creative - dennis praet?  in which case i'd rather just see praet play as an #8

I think extra players deep is not the answer, i think they way we're set up has, by and large, proven successful at breaking down deep set teams - but, as you say, the personnel is the problem - tonight casadei and yunus didn't offer enough and mavididi and fatawu just consistently failed to execute well enough, they both got into great positions with the ball but made either horrible shot choices (fatawu), or failed to pick out an opponent (mavididi).  Add to this vardy putting in another of his anonymous performances, and the few times he was released (with actually very good passes) he just didn't have the pace.

 

Kelechi isn't the answer, he seems to have given up.  i actually though mcateer looked good when he came on - i'd almost like to see him and marcal get a run out - genuinely can't be any worse...

I was suggesting replacing an 8 for Kelechi. So instead of having two 8s in front of Winks, drop one deeper and replace the other with Kelechi for him to play more as a 10. Risky strategy and we'd definitely lose the ball more often, but I think we'd create more clear opportunities. I think our defence is good enough and opposition weak enough to take that gamble.

 

How long is Praet out for?

 

Agree Vardy didn't make the most of some promising openings. There's still a role for him but I'm growing more intrigued to see what Cannon can do. Is he fast?

[Guest nathan.]

He has to make changes otherwise he will not see the season out.

 

 

 

 

[Lillehamring]

29 minutes ago, An Away Move said:

Was it really though? Or more a result of an absolutely necessary rotation of squad in a very busy fixture period. We cannot play our strongest eleven in every match. It’s impossible. 

And let's face it we still really should have won the game - i think our game management was poor towards the end (as it was against watford).  it was never going to be a great performance given that we made many changes and sheffield are a little resurgent and fighting for their season, but we actually played more than well enough to have held on for the 3 points, unortunately we got punished by a hail mary - sometimes that happens,

[Nod.E]

2 minutes ago, nathan. said:

He has to make changes otherwise he will not see the season out.

 

 

 

 

Stop fishing.

[Lillehamring]

30 minutes ago, Kopfkino said:

I’m as big a tactical snob as anyone, I need no invitation to look down my nose at limp, surface level analysis.

 

But it’s shite under Maresca - I said after Stoke that individuals and moments were carrying us and games in this run would show us up as moments aren’t sustainable. Didn’t expect Sheffield Wednesday to be one of those that show us up but here we are.

 

Same issues as at Parma. Build up is too deep and the football is so risk averse, it’s basically catenaccio but with the ball. 

What ever you feel about the way the football looks, it isn't shite - our results and league position prove that.

Fans who don't like the way we play really need to start accepting that that's the way it is, and maybe that's the way it needs to be to get us out of this league.