Tactics Under Maresca

[Nod.E]

3 minutes ago, Kopfkino said:

No it’s still shite, I’m just not succumbing to the results based analysis that people use to tell themselves it’s not.

 

Sherwood nailed our relegation first game of the season last year and he’s bang on that anyone half competent could get this team up this year. Now clearly Enzo has had to do a hell of a lot of good work behind the scenes to enable it but in terms of the system and structure of the team - the players are dragging that through rather than it making it better.

 

Again, it’s exactly the same as at Parma. The build up is too deep, the creative players don’t get the ball in dangerous parts of the pitch and lo and behold everyone goes we lack creativity, muh the 8s muh. We don’t, we just have a structure that sucks it out of us - creativity has no place in chess.

 

But alas I realise it’s not changing. I’d much rather be watching JDT’s football - the end result would be the same because the anyone half decent will get us up, I’d just have a lot more fun watching us do it.

Sherwood has and always will speak ill of us. Poor yardstick.

[StriderHiryu]

8 minutes ago, nathan. said:

Sunderland gave us serious problems.

 

We struggle against a good press because we are so passive in possession.

I strongly disagree with that statement. We aren't passive when trying to play through the press, it's just a bit too hit and miss so far, and we get caught on the ball or play it into trouble. We struggle against a high press because we aren't good enough at playing through the press consistently yet. But some of our best moves come from doing this, so we can see the potential. 

 

Where I agree we are passive is in the mid-block. After the first 20 minutes, Wednesday only pressed us when we went past the halfway line. That's what is catching us out; we don't have enough space to play through the press with verve and we aren't imaginative on the ball to work the space. 

 

This can be solved by working on some patterns of play to shift players around in their mid block and this is the thing we need to get better at. 

 

When people say "we've been figured out" this is what they mean. Go man-to-man, deny space to Ricardo and Winks, press us around the middle of the pitch. Leicester then have a lot of the ball but don't threaten...

 

 

 

Edited 30 November 2023 by StriderHiryu

[Lillehamring]

15 minutes ago, StriderHiryu said:

You are definitely the voice of common sense, so good on you for doing that.

 

We can both be critical and defend the manager, and that's my stance. It takes a long time to really get a style to gel, and the manager deserves that time. But we can also say that recently he's made a few missteps and the team has underperformed.

To expect enzo to have got this far without making any mistakes would be absurd - i think he's got most of it right, i feel like this recent dip is less about the style we play and more about the execution, it feels the problem lies with subpar performances from the squad, especially in the attacking third - i don't believe enzo has them on a leash (what was it 23 shots against watford?) - i simply believe that the players are having issues either overthinking or underthinking.

 

Fpr me, the real test of enzo is how he corrects this, how he gets them back to their early season form.

[Rigga]

2 minutes ago, Lillehamring said:

Granted we were poor to give away the ball for those chances, but that's no guarantee they'll take them - for the first mads get his angles spot on, the 2nd vestergaard makes a fine block - it wasn't just that they were poor, we responded really well to the situations.

Besides, if they had scored the first, you don't think they'd have immediately parked the bus, you don't think we'd have had much more urgency? falling behind early has never been game over for us this season.

 

Once we'd settled, we totally controlled the game, played some good build up, a few really nice attacking phases, got the goal, should have done better in the final third.  

 

The only truly awful things was our game management in the last 15 minutes.

As mentioned , it’s a reoccurring theme that the oppo is gash at putting chances away when presented to them..

2 left footed efforts failed to hit the target.. and a free header from a free kick

 

we may have controlled the game but it was possession football that wasnt going anywhere.. from memory, the last gasp header was the only save I remember their keeper making?

 

falling behind v Leeds and Boro we wernt good enough to turn things around..

 

we were unconvincing in possession at the back most of the night…

didnt deal with their aerial threat either..

it was a poor night at the office.. a very Rodgers like attitude and performance that I hope we dont see many more of 

[Lillehamring]

10 minutes ago, Kopfkino said:

No it’s still shite, I’m just not succumbing to the results based analysis that people use to tell themselves it’s not.

 

Sherwood nailed our relegation first game of the season last year and he’s bang on that anyone half competent could get this team up this year. Now clearly Enzo has had to do a hell of a lot of good work behind the scenes to enable it but in terms of the system and structure of the team - the players are dragging that through rather than it making it better.

 

Again, it’s exactly the same as at Parma. The build up is too deep, the creative players don’t get the ball in dangerous parts of the pitch and lo and behold everyone goes we lack creativity, muh the 8s muh. We don’t, we just have a structure that sucks it out of us - creativity has no place in chess.

 

But alas I realise it’s not changing. I’d much rather be watching JDT’s football - the end result would be the same because the anyone half decent will get us up, I’d just have a lot more fun watching us do it.

If you think being top of the league regardless of how it is achieved is shite then i have no words.

If you think that anyone, just by turning up to manage us, would also get us up then i have no words

[Guest nathan.]

So in short we invite the press but lack the ability or quality to beat it.

 

Unless we adjust our style we will be out of the top 2 within weeks.

 

 

 

 

 

[Lillehamring]

8 minutes ago, StriderHiryu said:

I strongly disagree with that statement. We aren't passive when trying to play through the press, it's just a bit too hit and miss so far, and we get caught on the ball or play it into trouble. We struggle against a high press because we aren't good enough at playing through the press consistently yet. But some of our best moves come from doing this, so we can see the potential. 

 

Where I agree we are passive is in the mid-block. After the first 20 minutes, Wednesday only pressed us when we went past the halfway line. That's what is catching us out; we don't have enough space to play through the press with verve and we aren't imaginative on the ball to work the space. 

 

This can be solved by working on some patterns of play to shift players around in their mid block and this is the thing we need to get better at. 

 

When people say "we've been figured out" this is what they mean. Go man-to-man, deny space to Ricardo and Winks, press us around the middle of the pitch. Leicester then have a lot of the ball but don't threaten...

 

 

 

But even then if we're getting off 23 shots against watford, they haven't worked us out, that's just us being rubbish.

Sheffield and middlesborough may have done what you said, but so did most of the other teams we played and beat earlier in the season - they didn't do anything tactically damning, they just sat deep - the difference was that we didn't have the penetration we have previously had. maresca's key philosophy is to get men in the box but we're not doing that anymore.

 

[sacreblueits442]

1 hour ago, Vazman said:

It seems the longer Enzo has to coach the squad the slower and more risk averse we become, someone mentioned Mavididi looks over coached, is everyone being over coached now, becoming to ponderous, and taking the easy side ways, rearwards passes, slow safe build ups, and trying to walk the ball safely into the back of the net.  I hope not, I expected more against Sheff Weds given their position and form, none of what I saw tonight was good, we deserved the outcome this evening.

...that Liverpool result did not help and it laid the foundation for how to approach games against us!!!

These teams do not have the quality of Liverpool, but the way they go about pressing us gives them the same results. For a team that practices playing a passing game, it is strange how we lose our composure and look second-rate when the opposition squeezes us, hooking and slicing balls all over the place, no one looking to get hold of the ball and transitioning the play themselves. We have seen a situation where the opposition are on top of us and out of position and the ball is with our goalkeeper, yet no one charges up the field for the quick ball while the opposition hasn't 10 men back, waiting for us to try and break them down.

  I really believe the quickest way to solve our problem is to get or use a right-sided #8 who can create, everything else is in place, that is where Maresca's plans fall down.

[Lillehamring]

7 minutes ago, Rigga said:

As mentioned , it’s a reoccurring theme that the oppo is gash at putting chances away when presented to them..

2 left footed efforts failed to hit the target.. and a free header from a free kick

 

we may have controlled the game but it was possession football that wasnt going anywhere.. from memory, the last gasp header was the only save I remember their keeper making?

 

falling behind v Leeds and Boro we wernt good enough to turn things around..

 

we were unconvincing in possession at the back most of the night…

didnt deal with their aerial threat either..

it was a poor night at the office.. a very Rodgers like attitude and performance that I hope we dont see many more of 

But we've also been poor at putting away chances - it works both ways - we're no better than most of the teams at this level for wasting good chances.

 

The other save he made was from vardy, which i don't recall, but this just emphasises the point above - our finishing was worse than there's - we had 12 shots 3 on target they had 14 and 7.

 

leeds scored after 58 minutes, boro 83 - we'd have had considerably more time tonight, against a much poorer team.

 

There was nothing wrong with our possession at the back, it was what we failed to do up front that was the problem - though we were poor at the end with our clearances and game management.

 

[HybridFox]

Why was he shutting up shop against the worst team in the league? Beggars belief. Attack is the best form of defence in these sorts of games. A second goal would surely have killed the game off

Edited 30 November 2023 by HybridFox

[Tom12345]

2 hours ago, Ric Flair said:

I think it was. I've no problem with rotation, maybe we rotated a bit too much in one go but that's understandable. 

 

The mis-control and poor passing from important players like Vestergaard, Winks, Faes etc was extremely disappointing. We seemed to struggle to deal with various basic patterns of play in and around our box, despite having a very experienced back line and defensive midfield. Poor performances can happen, I think our standards in that regard have dropped in the last 5-6 where we're not that good as often as we were.

 

Teams have started to gain confidence in it not being a forgone conclusion that we'll always win. We are being pressed more and we don't yet seem able to nullify it by opening teams up. We want to take more risks on the ball close to our goal than we do when we can look to break quickly, it's frustrating. 

 

I'm not naive enough to understand in this league especially, teams can toil both very strong and very weak. It's not an excuse though, I'll always look to analyse why it might be rather than double down it's inevitable and there's nothing to see here. That attitude is dangerous. Momentum in this league is wild. Teams can come from the bottom in the winter and get promoted.

 

I do have some nagging doubts about us and the football we play, but I also respect how good we've been defensively up to tonight and I hope Maresca may say we won't change but behind the scenes he's working to be one step ahead of our opponents who might think they've sussed us.

This is the main thing for me.

 

I thought with us taking risks at the back it is about creating opportunities at the other end with quick transition. We sort of did that at the beginning of the season.

 

Now, I have no idea why we do all the risky passing at the back as when we do break out we then simply slow it down and wait for the opposition to set themselves up again. We need to build instincts into players to look forward instead of passing back even without looking - players like KDH, Hamza and Ndidi are some of the biggest culprits.

 

This is the most frustrating part.

 

Maybe this is part one of the evolution and part two - the attacking bit will come into it later. But at the moment, we have no second gear at all. We are just trying to grind with the one and only first gear.

 

But if we are to give Enzo and the team a chance to do this confidently - which is most important - we need to give them time and not shout negativity at the players.

Edited 30 November 2023 by Tom12345

[Tom12345]

51 minutes ago, HybridFox said:

Why was he shutting up shop against the worst team in the league? Beggars belief. Attack is the best form of defence in these sorts of games. A second goal would surely have killed the game off

Hopefully this is a wake up call. If we had gone for a second we would not have dropped 2 points. We can always play the same, if that is what Enzo wants, but we always need to be playing to score goals (even if it is patient football). We should never play game management to defend a 1-0 lead - and all those fans who on the one hand say we should play more attacking football while on the other hand always talk about game management are contradicting themselves.

[inckley fox]

1 hour ago, Lillehamring said:

If you think being top of the league regardless of how it is achieved is shite then i have no words.

If you think that anyone, just by turning up to manage us, would also get us up then i have no words

'Shite', no, of course not. But we're where we were expected by most to be, with our noses just ahead of second, and we're on a slump.

 

I understand why sides with our quality want to dominate possession, but even within that we're not at all a tactically-flexible side. That can work, but the obvious question is always 'will there come a point when you're sussed?' That happened after the brightest of starts at this level under Pleat, McGhee and Sven, and of course it could happen again. He's a long way from achieving what he was employed to achieve, and things are looking tighter and tighter. So I wouldn't get too carried away with what a great job he's done.

 

You consider it unthinkable that people are underwhelmed by a manager who is top, and you say that it's wrong to think any old manager could do a job with them. While I'd agree that Enzo deserves more credit than that, you have to think of some of managers who have taken teams to the top of this league in recent years. I know Enzo has been flavour of the month, but he's still not achieved what many others - who most would term 'shite' without a word of debate - managed to pull off by ending the season in a promotion place, or as champions. So I'm not going to rush to judgement one way or another.

[Dan LCFC]

6 hours ago, DennisNedry said:

The more I watch us play, the more concerned I become that this style of play is actually very little to do with our points tally, and more to do with the relative quality of our squad compared to the rest of this league. 

I can't escape this idea either. I hope I'm wrong, but I don't think I am. We are flawed.

[Dan LCFC]

6 hours ago, Lambert09 said:

There simply has to be more balance.  When it’s not working, adapt.  I’m fine with having this as a game plan, I don’t hate it like a lot of people do, but it drives me barmy to continue with it in games that it’s either not needed or not working. 
 

pop us in a 4231 against the side in bottom and they don’t get out their half.  the slow and patient build up will always invite sides to have a go. but is that necessarily what’s needed in a game like this? 
 

There’s been 4/5 in particular where it’s just not needed the patience. 

I think this as well. I think a completely conventional system has us batter teams more frequently. I think we're overcomplicating the game and making far harder work of things than is necessary. It's OK when the results are coming, but when they're drying up a bit like the last month it's quite hard to get geed up by.

 

I suppose it's still relative early days, not just for him here but as a manager. But I have to say I'm not blown away by us at all. The results are better than the performances and the results are now starting to catch up with us.

 

Maybe it will pay off in the long run but after how we looked at times in September I'm disappointed with this. How we've served that up against the worst side in the division is mental. Wednesday fans prematch were laughing at the thought of them not getting battered.

 

I think we're playing par for our squad at best. We have an abundance of resources for this division. As kind a set of circumstances as you'll come across.

[Pliskin]

6 hours ago, Lillehamring said:

I'm not sure how you can say that given the results we've had.

The fact is, we don't have a ferrari  - we have a moderately priced van - a practical, unappealing vehicle that performs a tedious but necessary function - ie. getting promoted.  and it's pretty clear that, so far, he has used the correct philosophy in the correct way -which is why we are top of the league.

 

The mission is to get promoted, winning the league is a bonus, winning it comfortably is just gravy.

 

Pace is a worthless commodity when you're facing ten men behind the ball, but i agree we lack the technical skill to use it - our counter attacking is very poor - but then, again, we're a van not a ferrari. 

 

I thought we started the game with far more urgency and a higher tempo than the watford game, and the result was a series of unforced errors.

 

I wouldn't say we're fragile, or no more than anyone else - everyone is having disappointing/unexpected results.

 

For everything that wasn't quite right tonight, something as simple as better game management could have got us 3 points.

I would suggest in this current climate, on paper we are a Ferrari. In my opinion, we probably should be sat top of the table without a defeat….. as arrogant as that sounds, we’ve got the players to do it, I just think that the system is somewhat restricting our creativity, and some of the players aren’t wholly comfortable with it, even if they like the idea of it. 
 

I like Enzo’s philosophy, it’s one I share, there’s a reason why it’s used throughout Europe, however, it’s a style of football that demands the right kind of players to work…… and we’re shoehorning players into a system that doesn’t necessarily suit them. Defensively we’re okay, but for me Ricardo is wasted in CM, he is probably one of the best full backs in the league, and his best abilities aren’t being utilised. KDH isn’t a high 8, he’s better deeper in the pitch, although his energy and endeavour makes up for this. N’didi too isn’t an AM, again he has started this season well, but he is movement in the pockets of space a 10 would usually occupy isn’t good enough….. the wingers are often doubled up on straight away, and our strikers are at this stage, misfiring. 
 

My point is, there are very particular skill sets running through this team, that would be better suited playing a less rigid, military style of football. We’re better when we have an element of freedom, when there is a sense of chaos…. The unpredictability of us is probably one of our strengths. 
 

Eventually if we’re not careful we will hit a rut like we did under Rodgers, and Puel….. an over coached team that lack the spontaneity to change a game. 
 

This next run of games will define our season, and we’re hitting bad form just at the wrong time…. Point is, Enzo could probably change this with a systematic tweak, but he’s as good as said he won’t. 

[Dr The Singh]

Tactics today.......

 im unsure but execution was awful, every player was shit, poor passing, first touch etc.

 

My opinion Maresca is too arrogant on his playing style and thinks its a winner, thats rubbing on the players..........we forget about ture grit and playing on your instincts, because this playing style does not suit our midfield or strikers

[Guest Chocolate Teapot]

It doesn't help that he comes out with deluded nonsense after the game and his mate Balague is doing the world's worst propaganda job.

 

I get there is an external narrative and an internal one but he's so stubborn in his style it's frustrating. Our inability to put sides away is catching up with us. You might say we can't win 3 nil every week but every game we've been in bar Southampton had had a goal in it going into the last fifteen. Its just not sustainable to keep winning in that manner.

[Lesta2014]

I thought when I first watched it that keeping the ball and recycling possession was the first stage. We do this okay, I expected us to then take more risks and be hungrier on the press to get the ball back, the press isn’t as intense. In the final third I thought movement would happen as we got use to having so much of the ball and we got more static as games go on. 
 

maresca goes on about finding solutions against teams, it looks like it’s just keep ball until they lose concentration, we didn’t even look fit in last twenty last night and we only had one game since international break. 
 

tactics need a change and quickly or we are going to see the season drift away to nothing. 

[Gazza M]

It appears the modern way, but at times baffling why you start a GK with a back pass from CB at your own GK. It is very cringy. Only a Chris Weale moment away from an OG. 

 

We appear to have been sussed quite quickly and now Maresca is going to have to come up with a plan B and plan C at times. Something we will need if promoted as if we rock up at the big guns playing like this it would be a cricket score.

 

I hope he is not another Rodgers tactically. At least he is an honest and likeable guy unlike the used car salesman we used to employ. 

 

 

[adejo92]

We've got arguably the best team the championship has ever seen yet we are playing a way which completely bottle necks our ability.

 

I genuinely believe there's a number of managers who would have us where we are now.

 

Call me what you want, but this style of football has not only taken away any enjoyment from watching the team, but it's actually hard to get excited about the prospect of promotion knowing full well we will continue to play this negative brand of football, only against teams that actually have some ability.

 

It's such a painful watch.

[Dickov22]

How did Vardy stay on the pitch for 96 minutes? We’ve got a kid on the bench who cost millions and he’s not had a bloody sniff yet. 

[Scotch]

6 hours ago, StriderHiryu said:

I strongly disagree with that statement. We aren't passive when trying to play through the press, it's just a bit too hit and miss so far, and we get caught on the ball or play it into trouble. We struggle against a high press because we aren't good enough at playing through the press consistently yet. But some of our best moves come from doing this, so we can see the potential. 

 

Where I agree we are passive is in the mid-block. After the first 20 minutes, Wednesday only pressed us when we went past the halfway line. That's what is catching us out; we don't have enough space to play through the press with verve and we aren't imaginative on the ball to work the space. 

 

This can be solved by working on some patterns of play to shift players around in their mid block and this is the thing we need to get better at. 

 

When people say "we've been figured out" this is what they mean. Go man-to-man, deny space to Ricardo and Winks, press us around the middle of the pitch. Leicester then have a lot of the ball but don't threaten...

 

 

 

I also agree that it is mid-block we seem to struggle against, but for a slightly different reason. 

 

When we play against a team that's pressing hard all over the pitch, yes, we will sometimes be caught out but a lot of the time we can play through it. One thing that's almost garenteed though is that, the opposition will tire. That's why we score so many late goals because it takes a lot out a team to do that and we simply bide our time and hit them when they are too tired to stop us. 

 

When a team plays a mid-block, they do less running so they tire slower and we aren't garenteed that last 15/20 minutes at the end where we can really go and exploit sloppy defending because of it. 

[Kinowe Soorie]

So much possession, so little chances created for the striker. 
Players get in fantastic positions to have a shot, but pass the ball backwards. If you don’t buy a ticket etc.

Edited 30 November 2023 by Kinowe Soorie
Frostbite

[goose2010]

30 minutes ago, Chocolate Teapot said:

It doesn't help that he comes out with deluded nonsense after the game and his mate Balague is doing the world's worst propaganda job.

 

I get there is an external narrative and an internal one but he's so stubborn in his style it's frustrating. Our inability to put sides away is catching up with us. You might say we can't win 3 nil every week but every game we've been in bar Southampton had had a goal in it going into the last fifteen. Its just not sustainable to keep winning in that manner.

Didn't we win the premier league by winning by the odd goal? How many games that season did we 'see teams off' 

 

We are in the championship for a reason, we aren't the finished article we are just better than the rest the table doesn't lie.

 

It is still early days and obviously teams are going to work out our style it's how we then adapt to still keep on winning. 

.