Tactics Under Maresca

[adejo92]

48 minutes ago, Chelmofox said:

Seriously?!?!?!?! Assuming we get promoted we have 2 windows, young talent like Fatawu developing, Alves and Braybrooke in the mix, and opportunities to get rid of more dead weight. Its going to be tough no matter what way we do it. People are fixated on Burley, but we should do into into with confidence that we can set some solid foundations to survive.

 

No - we want a plan c as well 

In a roundabout way. Obviously you always want to play in the Premier League, but i just don't see anyway that these tactics work unless we buy Man City squad.

[Chelmofox]

2 minutes ago, adejo92 said:

In a roundabout way. Obviously you always want to play in the Premier League, but i just don't see anyway that these tactics work unless we buy Man City squad.

Others (Brighton, Villa) have done well in possession based systems. Villa took a few windows to get there. Don't just look at Burnley and don't just look at Man City.

[SouthStandUpperTier]

8 minutes ago, Chelmofox said:

Others (Brighton, Villa) have done well in possession based systems. Villa took a few windows to get there. Don't just look at Burnley and don't just look at Man City.

Brighton I'll give you, but Villa don't play a possession based system. They are 11th in the PL in total touches, almost 2000 touches behind Man City and Brighton.

 

When we were about to play Southampton earlier this season we were behind Southampton in pretty much every possession metric. We are now well ahead of them. Martin, for all his faults, realised they were massively overdoing it and has since dialled it back, and reaped the benefits. Now we are the ones that are overdoing it and are seeing regressive performances and results.

[Ricey]

39 minutes ago, Chelmofox said:

Others (Brighton, Villa) have done well in possession based systems. Villa took a few windows to get there. Don't just look at Burnley and don't just look at Man City.

Brighton were very defensive and organised when they first came up. They’ve transitioned to their current style.

[FosseSpark]

Let's have it straight.

The tactics popularised by Pep, Enzo etc rely ENTIRELY on all YOUR players being of better quality than the opposition so you can spread all over the pitch and make it impossible for the opposition to keep their shape.

If the tactics stay the same each game but are deployed by (any of):

A left back with no left foot.

Centre backs who aren't decisive in the pass

CDMs with a 50/50 first touch

Number 8s with no physicality, pace or quality on the ball

A striker with no pace

 

Then it just doesn't work and make it slow, a bit boring and easier for opposition to play against as the press will work way better.

 

Its at that point that you question whether they are tactics at all or whether they are a thin facsimile of Man City which falls over whenever we don't play our absolute best XI (which man for man is better than all the other sides in a similar way Man City are superior to prem teams). 

 

Personally I have preferred the games I've seen of Leeds or Ipswich from a pure 'is it exciting' perspective this season. Hate to say it, but it's true. 

Effectiveness is one thing , but there are way too many people quite valid in saying, 'we win but it's ****ing boring'. Which is not what we want.

[gw_leics772]

13 hours ago, Lillehamring said:

 

Of the 18 teams we've played none of them have 'worked us out' - leeds played better than us on the day, but still needed a set piece to score, and of the other teams that have taken points off us, hull we're outplayed but got a lucky deflection, boro were outplayed and scored a worldy, sheffield were outplayed and scored a scrappy last minute goal.

 

 

I'm not with the moaners but this sounds a lot like spurs fans in 15-16

[The_77]

At this point in the 13/14 season (the year we tore through the Championship), we had 38 points and had lost to Doncaster (relegated), Charlton (finished 18th), Forest at home, and Wednesday (finished 16th) and were just about to get spanked by Brighton. We had won only two games by 3 goals, something we’ve done 3 times this season.
 

We rolled the dice with the lineup yesterday because we could afford to and it will help keep some of our players fresh through the festive period. We’re playing a new system and have more transfer business to take care of in January. I’ll panic when we blow the auto promotion places. 

[SixtiesFox]

The fact that we're top of the league is indisputable, for another couple of days at least, and we still have a cushion to third. However, that cushion has been significantly eroded over the last 4 games. Should we lose again on Saturday in a game that could be our toughest test of the season so far,  that cushion will likely be down to 5 or 6 points with as many as 4 clubs snapping at our heels for one of those all important top 2 positions. And we'll almost certainly have been knocked off top spot by Ipswich.

 

We were always going to lose games, but our recent form is more than a blip I fear. We have become worryingly predictable and far too passive. We need to become more agressive and maximize the superiority we have in terms of player quality if we are to avoid the lottery of the playoffs at the end of the season.

 

Those comforting themselves by quoting current statistics: points, goals for and against need to be reminded that it's how you finish that often determines the outcome of a game or a season. Remember our failures to qualify for the Champions League under Rodgers? Massive leads but no plan B. Some of us are beginning to have some serious flashbacks! 

[foxile5]

31 minutes ago, FosseSpark said:

Let's have it straight.

The tactics popularised by Pep, Enzo etc rely ENTIRELY on all YOUR players being of better quality than the opposition so you can spread all over the pitch and make it impossible for the opposition to keep their shape.

If the tactics stay the same each game but are deployed by (any of):

A left back with no left foot.

Centre backs who aren't decisive in the pass

CDMs with a 50/50 first touch

Number 8s with no physicality, pace or quality on the ball

A striker with no pace

 

Then it just doesn't work and make it slow, a bit boring and easier for opposition to play against as the press will work way better.

 

Its at that point that you question whether they are tactics at all or whether they are a thin facsimile of Man City which falls over whenever we don't play our absolute best XI (which man for man is better than all the other sides in a similar way Man City are superior to prem teams). 

 

Personally I have preferred the games I've seen of Leeds or Ipswich from a pure 'is it exciting' perspective this season. Hate to say it, but it's true. 

Effectiveness is one thing , but there are way too many people quite valid in saying, 'we win but it's ****ing boring'. Which is not what we want.

The last line is telling - when we were winning everyone was saying that the entertainment factor shouldn’t even be raised. After all - we’re winning.

 

Last night was truly woeful. We were not fun to watch and we were rubbish. 

 

I’d be interested to hear the defence of ‘the process’ now. 

 

I’m not opposed to the system and tactics we play in principle but I’m extremely mindful that it’s not a million miles away from what Brendan used to play and we came a cropper there with a lack of any real plan B once teams were matching us. This looks to be happening right now - I said I thought would happen and remarked how Enzo really should have a plan B but I was told the passing at the back is breathtaking and part of the process.

[kingfox]

The more I watch us, the more evident it becomes on how crucial KDH is to our side. He is integral to the way we play, and most of the time our best creative moments come through him. If he doesn’t start or he fails to perform, more often than not, we tend to look like a boring laboured team who struggle in the final third. 

Delving deeper into KDH’s creativity statistics, he currently ranks 4th for expected assists. He currently leads the league for most smart passes, while he currently sits 4th for most smart passes per90. While he currently sits joint 5th for most key passes in the league.

 

I don’t think it’s any surprise that our more convincing wins have come when he’s contributed something. 4-1 vs Southampton(Assist), 4-1 vs Blackburn(Goal), 3-0 vs Preston(2 goals), 3-1 vs Swansea(Assist). While of course on the opening day, his goals got us over the line against Coventry. 
 

Personally I think we’re in desperate need for someone similar to him. Ndidi has slowly grown into the 8 role, but I don’t see him being the long term answer, he doesn’t give us what KDH does. Casadei has been extremely disappointing, while Akgun is more of a winger. I don’t think it’s any surprise to see us being linked with Gronbaek, he’d be ideal to go alongside KDH or as a rotation option. 
 

While finally delving into form and results, from Southampton away to QPR away, KDH also managed to hit a hot streak of form, in that period he managed 3 goals & 5 assists. During that similar period between Southampton away and Stoke home, Vardy scored 4 in 6. While between Norwich away and Swansea away, Iheanacho scored 5 in 6. Over the past four games, of course nobody has managed to hit a hot streak of form, which has coincided in losing 2 in 4. Ideally we need at least one of that trio to be contributing on a regular basis, like Leeds are currently seeing with Crysencio Summerville for example and Hull with Jaden Philogene. 

[george55]

he thinks hes still at man city diffrence is they pay 50'/100 mill for one player to sit on the bench there come straight bk down playing like that ,few wks back one ad the ball outside there area wat happens 3/4 passes its bk with the goal keeper ,i cant watch that style football  if it was free to watch there a joke,there not scoreing goals simple hence they went down there sorted a good goal keeper out .think he thinks hes going to tire players out by 4/10 foot passes ,they soon stoped wasteing time wen they scored 

[SecretPro]

9 minutes ago, george55 said:

he thinks hes still at man city diffrence is they pay 50'/100 mill for one player to sit on the bench there come straight bk down playing like that ,few wks back one ad the ball outside there area wat happens 3/4 passes its bk with the goal keeper ,i cant watch that style football  if it was free to watch there a joke,there not scoreing goals simple hence they went down there sorted a good goal keeper out .think he thinks hes going to tire players out by 4/10 foot passes ,they soon stoped wasteing time wen they scored 

OK George

 

[nettle]

I think one of the main problems with this team is the position either N'didi or Casadei play in. I really don't think either are creative enough, neither of them can beat a man and neither are they great at passing. We need another creative outlet alongside KDH in January.

[CosbehFox]

1 hour ago, SouthStandUpperTier said:

Brighton I'll give you, but Villa don't play a possession based system. They are 11th in the PL in total touches, almost 2000 touches behind Man City and Brighton.

 

When we were about to play Southampton earlier this season we were behind Southampton in pretty much every possession metric. We are now well ahead of them. Martin, for all his faults, realised they were massively overdoing it and has since dialled it back, and reaped the benefits. Now we are the ones that are overdoing it and are seeing regressive performances and results.

The other difference is Brighton’s game is notably based on a high press out of possession too. We don’t do that. 

[WigstonWanderer]

13 hours ago, StriderHiryu said:

I think the opposite, they will back him in the window after the start he made.

 

I am less than impressed after our recent run of games, and shared some of my thoughts on Beyond the 90. It takes time to coach a certain style, but if anything we seemed to have regressed, with not so many clips of great attacking sequences being posted on here in recent weeks.

 

In this game, we made 6 changes and that will affect the fluency of any team. Had we started with the team we finished with, I think we win that game. But this is a squad game, especially in this division, so we have to rotate players.

 

I expected a lot of rough games this season, but thought it would be bad results mixed with elements of good play in those bad results. But the season has been the opposite for the most part, great results but not very good performances. We want Enzo to be the man that makes a style even more impressive than Roberto di Zerbi at Brighton! But it feels a long way off that at the moment.

 

There's no need to overreact at the moment, but I don't think that anyone being critical can be chastised after the last 5-6 games, the performances on the pitch haven't been there.

 

Next game is a real test for us. The Baggies are one of the form teams in the division, with a great defence. They even restricted free-scoring Ipswich to next to nothing. So let's see how he bounces back from this one. But as it stands, there is some serious work to do. Instead of this style, he could play a 433 with a single pivot in Ndidi. That style would not work in the Premier League, but it would piss this division easily with the players that we have. That's why when people say we are winning in spite of our tactics instead of because of them, then objectively I would say they are correct.

 

 

 

Enjoyed watching that. Subscribed.

[CosbehFox]

1 hour ago, gw_leics772 said:

I'm not with the moaners but this sounds a lot like spurs fans in 15-16

I’m also struggling with Wednesday being outplayed considering their xG and other statistics. The only thing we beat them on was possession and passes completed - how much of that was idle, non progressive. 

[lcfcsnow]

2 hours ago, Richmondfox said:

The style of play was summed up last night when we had a throw in at the corner flag, within two passes it was back with Mads.  We then passed it around and lost it in our half.  In contrast Wednesday had one in the corner and went for a long throw in the box.

Was that when Mavididi just decided to let the ball run out of play when if he just kept it in we were in a threatening position, although considering he had the ball probably not. But its so negative.

[FosseSpark]

The worst thing is its not fun to watch. That's table stakes. The style is boring even when we end up scoring 2 in last 30mins. 

I think this is based on a few factors.

- The least fun players have the ball the most ie the goalie more than the attackers

- It relies on risk free options. Fun comes from the unexpected and audacious.

It relies on grinding down the opponent meaning goals come later more often than not.

Wingers, no10s, Strikers are functional and not the heartbeat of the side. It rewards Rodri's and Winks' more than Messi's, Ronaldo's, Maddisons, Gazzas etc. 

 

Case in point. Look at Grealish at Villa and now at Man City. At Villa he was edge of the seat sort of player, beating people demanding the ball and getting people off their seats. At Man City he plays most of the time but never tries to beat a man and almost always takes the safe option. They win, but Grealish is boring to watch. 

 

[Heskey2011]

7 minutes ago, CosbehFox said:

I’m also struggling with Wednesday being outplayed considering their xG and other statistics. The only thing we beat them on was possession and passes completed - how much of that was idle, non progressive. 

Almost all of it. We were so much better at everything than them but seemed to have **** all motivation to make it 0-2.

Wednesday weren't parking the bus, they weren't even fighting, they gave up 25mins in after we scored and still weren't trying 5 mins from the end.

They won a throw in, just before their goal where no one showed for it, i was sat behind it in family stand with Wednesday lot, they were fuming, calling it embarrassing, no one wanted the ball. 

 

Wednesday were absolutely sh1t, we were apathetic. 

The goal was like we had been rope-a-doped, Coady and Nestagaard, Winks JJ, Hamza all of them around where the ball was landing, no one took responsibility, you've got to get under those highballs, get organised, block off the space, JJ was jumping with like 4 guys around him,all just watching, waiting to react.

[inckley fox]

1 hour ago, FosseSpark said:

Let's have it straight.

The tactics popularised by Pep, Enzo etc rely ENTIRELY on all YOUR players being of better quality than the opposition so you can spread all over the pitch and make it impossible for the opposition to keep their shape.

If the tactics stay the same each game but are deployed by (any of):

A left back with no left foot.

Centre backs who aren't decisive in the pass

CDMs with a 50/50 first touch

Number 8s with no physicality, pace or quality on the ball

A striker with no pace

 

Then it just doesn't work and make it slow, a bit boring and easier for opposition to play against as the press will work way better.

 

Its at that point that you question whether they are tactics at all or whether they are a thin facsimile of Man City which falls over whenever we don't play our absolute best XI (which man for man is better than all the other sides in a similar way Man City are superior to prem teams). 

 

Personally I have preferred the games I've seen of Leeds or Ipswich from a pure 'is it exciting' perspective this season. Hate to say it, but it's true. 

Effectiveness is one thing , but there are way too many people quite valid in saying, 'we win but it's ****ing boring'. Which is not what we want.

Some good points. I also think that if you're uniformly unwilling to move the ball up the pitch quickly, take the odd risk and test sides in the first 60 minutes, then sides will simply realise that there's less danger in pressing your defenders. Even if you can break, you won't, because the 'patience please' mantra tends to prevent it. They have too much time to regroup because we're too keen to 'recycle' possession.

[Marshall Cockney Fox]

There are a few sporting phrases, often used in rugby speak - such as 'play what you see' or 'play with your heads up'. The common theme being, that a player has licence to be spontaneous, instinctive and thereby creative. 

 

I would argue that currently we are slightly over coached and playing restrictively, as the 'formula' is king. We have an abundance of talent in that squad. But some of the decision making on the park baffles me. Players are not being instinctive and are not maximising the options. As they are wholly sticking to a pre ascribed plan. I'd say it's holding us back now. Not in fact growing us. 

 

Time to evolve Enzo. Good start my friend. But evolution is required. 

[sacreblueits442]

2 hours ago, adejo92 said:

In a roundabout way. Obviously you always want to play in the Premier League, but i just don't see anyway that these tactics work unless we buy Man City squad.

...you really do not need the Manchester City squad!!!

Borges was a better option than Mavididi, Archer a good option for a #8, Right Winger or striker and Rak-Sakyi I believe was a better option than Fatawu. Throw in Oscar Bobb and you have an exciting lethat front 4. They are intelligent and clinical in what they do, we have to source better, we do not need to spend big.

[Gamble92]

15 hours ago, Lillehamring said:

Ifs and buts - had we not rested players and put out an unbalanced rusty backline we wouldn't have gifted them all but one of their best chances.

If we hadn't rested kdh and nididi we wouldn't have had casadei and yunus wasting two places on the team sheet and would have had a decent press and created twice the chances we did.

And yet, but for some poor game management, we were a minute away from three points.

 

Was it really so bad?

We created one half decent chance in 90 minutes against a woeful standard. It isn't even about the fact they had so many good openings, we created hardly any.

 

Even at 1-0 everyone around me was saying how boring we are to watch. It's almost anti-football at times. If we have the ball then least they can't score mentality, rather than having any purposeful attacks of our own. We shouldn't be playing like that against Sheffield Wednesday.

 

There was an air of arrogance again with them too. Like we could just turn up and win without maximum effort. The only positive is that we didn't get out of jail free again and it's glaringly obvious we will now be caught if we carry on in the same vein. 

[Pliskin]

6 hours ago, sbfox said:

Well we're top of the league, I think we're doing fine

 

And it’s this nonchalant mentality that saw us relegated. Having critical thinking isn’t negative. Fine probably won’t cut it in reality. There are definitely concerns and worries… with the games coming up as they are, a bad run of form could see that cushion to third disappear.
 

Nothing is certain… but there’s definitely concerns going forward, there’s still an element of a soft underbelly about us. 

[fuchsntf]

7 hours ago, Pliskin said:

We’re not talking premier league…. We’re talking championship. 
 

We just NEED to get out of this league, 

Why…must we get out of the championship to enjoy our weekends..

Aspiration & ambitions and hard facts to attempt to achieve those dreams,but first not whine over what you ain’t got,but embrace and enjoy the seasons one hangs around any lower league…Life is too short to worry over a full season where one might come up short,but still enjoy % of the games..

 

Not enjoying or taking in your pastime realities& their uncertainties ,is a weird way to go through life. Forcing your parents to be tied to the rack,because they didn’t bring you up in a city that is a top 6 side..Squeezing your ass tight every weekend because your side still hasn’t yet turned into a Barcelona…!!