Tactics Under Maresca

[Chelmofox]

1 hour ago, Pliskin said:

And it’s this nonchalant mentality that saw us relegated. Having critical thinking isn’t negative. Fine probably won’t cut it in reality. There are definitely concerns and worries… with the games coming up as they are, a bad run of form could see that cushion to third disappear.
 

Nothing is certain… but there’s definitely concerns going forward, there’s still an element of a soft underbelly about us. 

How is this even comparable to last season? From the off i knew there were serious, serious issues last season, and we were leaking goals at stupid rates with a spine of a defence that contained sick note and Amartey, with a Manager openly taking the pi55 out of the club. We were rock bottom almost immediately. 

 

Its not nonchalant to point out we are top and have only conceded 11 goals. However, i completely agree we've looked off it for the last 5 or so games (though i still maintain we played well against Middlesborough and 2nd half Watford). There are clearly issues and i hope that team was back in first thing today to debrief on why. The goals largely drying up has to be seen as a huge concern / priority.  

 

I think claims that we've been 5hite all season and just got lucky are complete nonsense. 

Edited 30 November 2023 by Chelmofox

[gurru991]

5 minutes ago, Chelmofox said:

 

Its not nonchalant to point out we are top and have only conceded 11 goals. However, i completely agree we've looked off it for the last 5 or so games (though i still maintain we played well against Middlesborough and 2nd half Watford). There are clearly issues and i hope that team was back in first thing today to debrief on why. The goals largely drying up has to be seen as a huge concern / priority.  

 

I think claims that we've been 5hite all season and just got lucky are complete nonsense. 

I couldn't agree more !!

Edited 30 November 2023 by gurru991

[The_77]

2 hours ago, Pliskin said:

And it’s this nonchalant mentality that saw us relegated. Having critical thinking isn’t negative. Fine probably won’t cut it in reality. There are definitely concerns and worries… with the games coming up as they are, a bad run of form could see that cushion to third disappear.
 

Nothing is certain… but there’s definitely concerns going forward, there’s still an element of a soft underbelly about us. 

Saying we’re fine when we’re top of the league is nothing like the mentality that saw us relegated. 
 

There were always going to be growing pains this season, especially now with a new manager who has only eighteen league games and one transfer window under his belt. 
 

The squad is still incredibly unbalanced. We still have FIVE goalkeepers on the books. 

[winteriscoming]

I don’t buy into this opinion that it’s incredible where he’s turned it around from last season. That dwarf twat drained everything out and anyone coming in would of been an improvement after 18 months+ of mis management and dreadful tactical decisions. 
He’s inherited a squad better than any other in the division that should be where we are and added quality in Winks, Coady, Mavidi, and Fatuwo. 

[Chrysalis]

20 hours ago, Lillehamring said:

But he's trying to teach them the basics of his system. If you're learning to speak french and get stuck on some complicated grammar, you don't switch to learning spanish, you persever, stubbornly, to learn the grammar that's stumbling you.

 

Besides, it is working - dropping a few points, having a few set backs does not mean it has failed, it just means that it's progressing in a natural, expected way.

 

The last six games we haven't been as good as we were but we've taken 10 points, that's a standard to gain 77 points over a season, even if we continue at that rate we'd finish on 89 points - it is too early to claim it is not working.

 

 

The biggest problem that might be had is if one thinks the solution is to improve the execution of the style.

 

When I say lessons learned, I will be clear, the lesson is learning that the style will need to be changed up.

 

For some reason there is people who think Brighton and Pep play this way, they dont.

 

They play out the back, but once the ball is clear of danger, they then find a way to get it up the pitch and then carry on playing the ball in the opponents half, they dont do loads of backward passes in their own third.   Both teams will also counter on transition.

 

In modern football successful teams have to learn to play in different ways otherwise they get figured out, and without a gulf in quality of the players that cant be overcome.

 

In modern football 7 games is a long enough time to form an opinion of a pattern, the years where we go oh just give the guy a couple of seasons to figure it out are gone. A club could be bankrupted by that.

 

The pattern is we are being figured out, we either need to up the tempo consistently so we basically outplaying the other team, or if the players cant manage that be prepared to change up at points, move to a hybrid system or just change it when it isnt working in games, I dont think anyone is calling for radical wholesale changes, just pointing out we have been figured out and the chasing pack is closing.

 

The blistering start has kind of worked against Enzo, if we were stuck mid table and it was a clear transition season he would have time to experiment, allow off form players to bed in to the style etc. but as it has turned out we in a promotion battle which is not as comfortable as we thought it was going to be.  Results are now priority over the style.

 

However I do agree the problem may be down to the personel, he has become a bit of a tinkerer, I think coady's inclusion has upset the balance, we are missing doyle, dropping both KDH and ndidi at same time was madness as we lost all attacking capability, Kasey's injury has upset his goalscoring form and both our main strikers are too cold.

 

The play from the back has also changed, vesty barely went forward in the last game, and also did only safe passes, the players around him didnt get forward either, that seems a clear change of tact of heeding a caution first approach, I hope Enzo isnt falling into the same trap as rodgers did thinking about what the other team might do instead of setting his own up to be dangerous.

[Guppys Love Child]

5 hours ago, sacreblueits442 said:

...you really do not need the Manchester City squad!!!

Borges was a better option than Mavididi, Archer a good option for a #8, Right Winger or striker and Rak-Sakyi I believe was a better option than Fatawu. Throw in Oscar Bobb and you have an exciting lethat front 4. They are intelligent and clinical in what they do, we have to source better, we do not need to spend big.

I agree with most if not all of this, but still think the style and tactics Enzo wants us to play would hamper even these players.   

 

The patient, recycling from the back is far too slow, and we spend more time sideways and backwards passing then getting it forward for our attacking outlets to go and do some damage. ( Yes we see limited glimpse of attacks but we desperately need it to happen more often and not be subjected to the current passing bore fest) Yes the names you have quoted would maybe be better upgrades than our current players but playing Enzoball would stop us finding out if you were right.

[Guppys Love Child]

29 minutes ago, Chrysalis said:

The biggest problem that might be had is if one thinks the solution is to improve the execution of the style.

 

When I say lessons learned, I will be clear, the lesson is learning that the style will need to be changed up.

 

For some reason there is people who think Brighton and Pep play this way, they dont.

 

They play out the back, but once the ball is clear of danger, they then find a way to get it up the pitch and then carry on playing the ball in the opponents half, they dont do loads of backward passes in their own third.   Both teams will also counter on transition.

 

In modern football successful teams have to learn to play in different ways otherwise they get figured out, and without a gulf in quality of the players that cant be overcome.

 

In modern football 7 games is a long enough time to form an opinion of a pattern, the years where we go oh just give the guy a couple of seasons to figure it out are gone. A club could be bankrupted by that.

 

The pattern is we are being figured out, we either need to up the tempo consistently so we basically outplaying the other team, or if the players cant manage that be prepared to change up at points, move to a hybrid system or just change it when it isnt working in games, I dont think anyone is calling for radical wholesale changes, just pointing out we have been figured out and the chasing pack is closing.

 

The blistering start has kind of worked against Enzo, if we were stuck mid table and it was a clear transition season he would have time to experiment, allow off form players to bed in to the style etc. but as it has turned out we in a promotion battle which is not as comfortable as we thought it was going to be.  Results are now priority over the style.

 

However I do agree the problem may be down to the personel, he has become a bit of a tinkerer, I think coady's inclusion has upset the balance, we are missing doyle, dropping both KDH and ndidi at same time was madness as we lost all attacking capability, Kasey's injury has upset his goalscoring form and both our main strikers are too cold.

 

The play from the back has also changed, vesty barely went forward in the last game, and also did only safe passes, the players around him didnt get forward either, that seems a clear change of tact of heeding a caution first approach, I hope Enzo isnt falling into the same trap as rodgers did thinking about what the other team might do instead of setting his own up to be dangerous.

Good post...spot on 

[Ely fox]

Anyone would think we are mid table instead of top of the league, with all the moaning after last night’s mediocre performance. It was always going to be a very tough season. I don’t get all this negativity. 

[Guppys Love Child]

18 minutes ago, Ely fox said:

Anyone would think we are mid table instead of top of the league, with all the moaning after last night’s mediocre performance. It was always going to be a very tough season. I don’t get all this negativity. 

Possibly because deep down with Enzo stubbornly sticking to his mantra nothing will change. 

 

We have been poor for few matches now, something is potentially wrong. IMO now's the time for Enzo to show a bit of flexibility, and  objectively with his coaching staff look at what's going wrong and adjust and not adopt the 'do plan A better' approach.   

Come back and ask this question again after the Baggies game  if we loose it whilst by playing the same 5hit way as we did against Sheffield Wednesday. 

Edited 30 November 2023 by Guppys Love Child

[Nod.E]

People have just formed this arbitrary idea in their heads that Maresca isn't being flexible or trying new things. Yes he has his system but that's a good thing. How many managers regularly change formation? Building an identify is a positive thing. How many times did we say last year that we don't know what we are or what our identity is?

 

Yesterday we saw Casadei and Akgun deployed as the two 8s in the same line up. That was partially a play to rest players, but do people not think it was also an attempt to add attacking intent to the side? 

 

All the noise before kick off was excitement at an attacking line up.

 

It didn't work out. The players didn't perform. There was complacency, and we need to find a way to find more goals as we've slowed down on that front. This can happen. Even in our Premier League winning season we had back to back 0-0s at one point.

 

Ultimately we do have a fundamental problem, which is that we don't have creative central players. The Akgun experiment as an 8 isn't working and Casadei looks out of his depth. We'll be a lot better off if/when we get someone playing well in that position. Potentially Alves or a new signing. Until then, we're doing enough to pick up plenty of points.

 

Absolutely not a time to panic, and I'm disappointed at how widespread the moaning and extreme reactions are.

Edited 30 November 2023 by Nod.E

[Ely fox]

41 minutes ago, Guppys Love Child said:

Possibly because deep down with Enzo stubbornly sticking to his mantra nothing will change. 

 

We have been poor for few matches now, something is potentially wrong. IMO now's the time for Enzo to show a bit of flexibility, and  objectively with his coaching staff look at what's going wrong and adjust and not adopt the 'do plan A better' approach.   

Come back and ask this question again after the Baggies game  if we loose it whilst by playing the same 5hit way as we did against Sheffield Wednesday. 

Fair enough, I’ll do that mate. 

[Ely fox]

27 minutes ago, Nod.E said:

People have just formed this arbitrary idea in their heads that Maresca isn't being flexible or trying new things. Yes he has his system but that's a good thing. How many managers regularly change formation? Building an identify is a positive thing. How many times did we say last year that we don't know what we are or what our identity is?

 

Yesterday we saw Casadei and Akgun deployed as the two 8s in the same line up. That was partially a play to rest players, but do people not think it was also an attempt to add attacking intent to the side? 

 

All the noise before kick off was excitement at an attacking line up.

 

It didn't work out. The players didn't perform. There was complacency, and we need to find a way to find more goals as we've slowed down on that front. This can happen. Even in our Premier League winning season we had back to back 0-0s at one point.

 

Ultimately we do have a fundamental problem, which is that we don't have creative central players. The Akgun experiment as an 8 isn't working and Casadei looks out of his depth. We'll be a lot better off if/when we get someone playing well in that position. Potentially Alves or a new signing. Until then, we're doing enough to pick up plenty of points.

 

Absolutely not a time to panic, and I'm disappointed at how widespread the moaning and extreme reactions are.

I agree it does seem a bit over the top reactions. Although I get their argument. 

[Guppys Love Child]

1 minute ago, Ely fox said:

Fair enough, I’ll do that mate. 

I hope you don't come back. It would mean we have lost, and that's the last thing I want.

[Ely fox]

Just now, Ely fox said:

I agree it does seem a bit over the top reactions. Although I get their argument. 

It’s possibly panic stations because Ipswich Town are starting to be taken more seriously and Leeds United are gaining more serious ground on us now. 

[Ely fox]

1 minute ago, Guppys Love Child said:

I hope you don't come back. It would mean we have lost, and that's the last thing I want.

Yeah I agree ☝️ 

[Ely fox]

9 minutes ago, Guppys Love Child said:

I hope you don't come back. It would mean we have lost, and that's the last thing I want.

It might mean nothing, but I work with a bloke who’s son is in the Ipswich Town FC youth set up. And he reckons that the tractor 🚜 boys are really going for promotion and have the financial clout in January to strengthen them. Because I was saying in the staff room how Ipswich will weaken when they get their inevitable injuries as the season progresses. Anyway he thinks that they are 100 💯 going to be there challenging for autos all season, and will strengthen this January and the manager is 💯 serious about this. Just what I’ve heard so thought I’d inform. 

[sacreblueits442]

1 hour ago, Nod.E said:

Absolutely not a time to panic, and I'm disappointed at how widespread the moaning and extreme reactions are.

...we have gone through a few years where we were not performing and it was a precursor to where we are now!!!

People have seen a manager who previously was unable to grasp the situation and turn us around, it seems a bit deja vu, and PTSD is still a factor.

[Dahnsouff]

9 hours ago, Guppys Love Child said:

I agree with most if not all of this, but still think the style and tactics Enzo wants us to play would hamper even these players.   

 

The patient, recycling from the back is far too slow, and we spend more time sideways and backwards passing then getting it forward for our attacking outlets to go and do some damage. ( Yes we see limited glimpse of attacks but we desperately need it to happen more often and not be subjected to the current passing bore fest) Yes the names you have quoted would maybe be better upgrades than our current players but playing Enzoball would stop us finding out if you were right.

Do you think this is the entirety of what he wants then? Do you think the style he wants is now settled? Seen him motioning forwards from the sidelines many times. I am wary of channeling an inner Rodgers, but Rodgers had a long period and it ended going stale, but two things with Enzo.
One, he has had a far harder job due to the turnover following relegation and two, he is barely out of bed, let alone got his socks on! He is very early in both his tenure, and with style/personnel turnover, so to be sitting top despite a seeming wobble, is good at this point.

[Dahnsouff]

7 hours ago, sacreblueits442 said:

...we have gone through a few years where we were not performing and it was a precursor to where we are now!!!

People have seen a manager who previously was unable to grasp the situation and turn us around, it seems a bit deja vu, and PTSD is still a factor.

If you were Enzo attending your appraisal, would you be expecting pelters this early? In this position? Would you expect to be judged by people on issues occurred before your tenure? You would think your appraisers were unreasonable.

[foxinsocks]

The results come from mindsets  fitness  and focus as well as tactics.  We have collectedmany points that we haven't deserved. Enzo has not done badly

With the previous manager we failed to gain points we deserved.

Imo I would like to see mavididi and kdh pull the trigger more often to "work the keeper".  I would like to see fatawu start every game. I would like us to.mix things up by playing more bslls beyond the wingers into space (to keep defenders guessing)

[Guppys Love Child]

18 minutes ago, Dahnsouff said:

Do you think this is the entirety of what he wants then? Do you think the style he wants is now settled? Seen him motioning forwards from the sidelines many times. I am wary of channeling an inner Rodgers, but Rodgers had a long period and it ended going stale, but two things with Enzo.
One, he has had a far harder job due to the turnover following relegation and two, he is barely out of bed, let alone got his socks on! He is very early in both his tenure, and with style/personnel turnover, so to be sitting top despite a seeming wobble, is good at this point.

I don't know, I don't have the luxury of being able to ask him.  (And no, you didn't ask a rhetorical question here, as you don't know for sure or can confirm with him either)

 

(2nd bold point) all the better to expand his horizons then, explore and create his own true identity.

 

My take on it is that, he along with Kompany are seen as 'Disciples of Pep' and are borrowing from his  tried and tested style, tactics etc. which works with the literal  Billions of pound backing he's had at Man City, and because he is the actual author of that style/ identity.

 

Now I appreciate we can't offer Enzo the same financial backing, and yes he has had to deal with the fallout from the odious little creature known as Rodgers, but he needs to break away a little from the perceived 'teachings of Pep' and truly create his own style, yes use it as a loose base template  but actually adapt it and sprinkle some Enzo flavour on it  (just because it works for Man City and its what he knows and is comfortable with it is not a reason to dig his heals in and come out with statements along the lines of this this the style deal with it) and I don't think he's doing that at the moment...but who knows what will happen.

[Matt]

17 minutes ago, Guppys Love Child said:

I don't know, I don't have the luxury of being able to ask him.  (And no, you didn't ask a rhetorical question here, as you don't know for sure or can confirm with him either)

 

(2nd bold point) all the better to expand his horizons then, explore and create his own true identity.

 

My take on it is that, he along with Kompany are seen as 'Disciples of Pep' and are borrowing from his  tried and tested style, tactics etc. which works with the literal  Billions of pound backing he's had at Man City, and because he is the actual author of that style/ identity.

 

Now I appreciate we can't offer Enzo the same financial backing, and yes he has had to deal with the fallout from the odious little creature known as Rodgers, but he needs to break away a little from the perceived 'teachings of Pep' and truly create his own style, yes use it as a loose base template  but actually adapt it and sprinkle some Enzo flavour on it  (just because it works for Man City and its what he knows and is comfortable with it is not a reason to dig his heals in and come out with statements along the lines of this this the style deal with it) and I don't think he's doing that at the moment...but who knows what will happen.

Agree with this, what I will say is i've been fairly supportive of Enzo and the way he's had us playing, however, as every game passes (no pun intended) he seems to be going more down the route of being beta-Man City/Pep-lite (Of which admittedly I called lazy opinions) and we're arguably getting worse and more boring for it. Shock.

 

Edited 1 December 2023 by Matt

[LCFCJohn]

14 hours ago, Chelmofox said:

How is this even comparable to last season? From the off i knew there were serious, serious issues last season, and we were leaking goals at stupid rates with a spine of a defence that contained sick note and Amartey, with a Manager openly taking the pi55 out of the club. We were rock bottom almost immediately. 

 

Its not nonchalant to point out we are top and have only conceded 11 goals. However, i completely agree we've looked off it for the last 5 or so games (though i still maintain we played well against Middlesborough and 2nd half Watford). There are clearly issues and i hope that team was back in first thing today to debrief on why. The goals largely drying up has to be seen as a huge concern / priority.  

 

I think claims that we've been 5hite all season and just got lucky are complete nonsense. 

It’s not compatible to last season you’re right, we are fighting at the opposite end of the league and were never ‘ahead’ last season. There are however similarities to 2019/20 and 2020/21. That is where the worry comes from so Enzo for me, will be judged on how he deals with that. Currently, results wise, it is just a small blip that you expect. Let’s hope he can get us back winning.

 

The bits in your middle paragraph are purely facts and you are correct at the end of it about the concerns. The arrogance is people dismissing that other teams may catch us and saying ‘it’s fine’ like we are up already. Massive load of work to do this season to get to that point.

 

Your last paragraph is clearly an extremely view by a few. Most people acknowledge the good whilst realising it is still precarious. 

[alanf0x]

I very rarely see a change in tactics from Enzo. Change of player in the same system, yes, but not a change in tactics.

 

You see this frequently from opposition teams against us, mainly because they are chasing the game I know. Managers doubling up on Fatawu after a couple of runs at their full backs, taking off a defender for a striker, changing formations etc. Managers reacting to situations during the game. 
 

We just seem to play the same way and hope that over 90 minutes it will work. 
 

 

[filbertway]

11 hours ago, Nod.E said:

People have just formed this arbitrary idea in their heads that Maresca isn't being flexible or trying new things. Yes he has his system but that's a good thing. How many managers regularly change formation? Building an identify is a positive thing. How many times did we say last year that we don't know what we are or what our identity is?

 

Yesterday we saw Casadei and Akgun deployed as the two 8s in the same line up. That was partially a play to rest players, but do people not think it was also an attempt to add attacking intent to the side? 

 

All the noise before kick off was excitement at an attacking line up.

 

It didn't work out. The players didn't perform. There was complacency, and we need to find a way to find more goals as we've slowed down on that front. This can happen. Even in our Premier League winning season we had back to back 0-0s at one point.

 

Ultimately we do have a fundamental problem, which is that we don't have creative central players. The Akgun experiment as an 8 isn't working and Casadei looks out of his depth. We'll be a lot better off if/when we get someone playing well in that position. Potentially Alves or a new signing. Until then, we're doing enough to pick up plenty of points.

 

Absolutely not a time to panic, and I'm disappointed at how widespread the moaning and extreme reactions are.

Of course we're doing enough, the quality we have in comparison to opposition is wild.

 

If this is the identity then next season will be brutal. Were not gonna be able to get by on just being better than the other team in the prem. If we fumble promotion he won't get another 50 million to spend, we will be drastically cutting the purse strings.