Tactics Under Maresca

[The Doctor]

16 minutes ago, Lillehamring said:

 

That's obviously not true - it's happened a few times, in a few games - as the doctor's stats reveal - between 5-30 yards he's only misplaced 8 passes all season, and three were today.

They're from FBRef which hasn't updated for today's games yet so technically it's 11 passes misplaced between 5-30 yards. 11 in 18 is still not far of one every other game which is not numerous times most games

 

Edit: Forgot he was out for Huddersfield, 11 times in 18 games

Edited 2 December 2023 by The Doctor

[Lillehamring]

16 minutes ago, Paninistickers said:

But that's kinda the problem. We can control games totally and end up losing/drawing down to pure 'hope'. It's not good enough just being better than the opposition. You have to beat them too. 

 

Enjoyable as today was, we very nearly threw away more points to an inferior team. 

 

Edit, to illustrate my point absurdly, if I was in the ring v Tyson Fury, it doesn't matter how much better he is than me if he doesn't throw a punch

Granted, we need to get better at scoring more goals before it comes down to these kind of panicky endings - but in most of these games it's not through a lack of trying or chances, but simply  the fact that we're having a bit of a struggle in the final third.

[GingerrrFox]

The thing is, you don’t play counter attacking football when you’ve got the best squad in the league. Players want the ball. 

[Paninistickers]

4 minutes ago, GingerrrFox said:

The thing is, you don’t play counter attacking football when you’ve got the best squad in the league. Players want the ball. 

I think others have said on this thread though, can't we mix up high press / possession / falling into shape / hitting it early or long? 

 

The man city comparison people make is nonsense. They are far more attack minded than we are (and in comparative terms, our squad in the championship is like theirs in the PL)

[Clever Fox]

It was clear today that the players had worked hard in training in how to go about todays game.

I thought Enzo got both the Team selection and tactics spot on today. We were more disciplined today with players holding their positions better while we continued to wear the opposition down, Which is a big part of Enzo's methods.

It's not always the prettiest to watch especially first half while we tire the opposition out. Eventually the gaps begin to open up.

What's wrong the players we have are still learning the system. And some are still learning how to play football given their age and experience. We're still a couple of players short to execute it to it's best which the January window should help.

 

The Goals we conceeded today and Wednesday had more to do with the players than the Manager or the Tactics.

Which demonstrates the players naivety under pressure when calm heads are needed. Something I expect us to improve on as the season progresses.

 

[Lillehamring]

33 minutes ago, Paninistickers said:

I think others have said on this thread though, can't we mix up high press / possession / falling into shape / hitting it early or long? 

 

The man city comparison people make is nonsense. They are far more attack minded than we are (and in comparative terms, our squad in the championship is like theirs in the PL)

The first goal came from a high press, the second a counter attack, and the rest of the game was possession to soften up their back line - that's a pretty decent mix of elements, to be fair.

 

Also, although we have the highest quality squad in the league, it's one that really hasn't played much together:  faes, ricardo, ndidi, kdh and the strikers - the rest are either new to the club, up from the academy or hardly played under rodgers - so it's understandable that we don't have the same (relative) fluidity of man city.

[Collymore]

17 minutes ago, Clever Fox said:

It was clear today that the players had worked hard in training in how to go about todays game.

I thought Enzo got both the Team selection and tactics spot on today. We were more disciplined today with players holding their positions better while we continued to wear the opposition down, Which is a big part of Enzo's methods.

It's not always the prettiest to watch especially first half while we tire the opposition out. Eventually the gaps begin to open up.

What's wrong the players we have are still learning the system. And some are still learning how to play football given their age and experience. We're still a couple of players short to execute it to it's best which the January window should help.

 

The Goals we conceeded today and Wednesday had more to do with the players than the Manager or the Tactics.

Which demonstrates the players naivety under pressure when calm heads are needed. Something I expect us to improve on as the season progresses.

 

Of course getting a result softens the blow massively. We were lucky that WBA didn't mind going for the win as most other teams would have shut the game down for a draw so I don't see it as a deserved win. 

 

I'm being massively critical I know but every game that goes by recently the only thing I'm thinking more and more is we'll be in deep trouble without massive changes/investment, let alone more variation in tactics. 

 

I can't put it into to words, but it doesn't feel right on the pitch at the moment. I really do believe we're not playing to our true potential and that's to do with the restrictive tactics and yes, it's great to win and I was going mental celebrating, but I really am worried for some reason. 

 

 

Edited 2 December 2023 by Collymore

[Trav Le Bleu]

6 hours ago, StriderHiryu said:

One more thing. You may notice that in recent weeks I've been a lot more critical. That's because after 19 games, I feel like we've regressed a bit:

 

• Southampton started off horrifically, but Russel Martin has tidied up their defence and got them firing in goals. He has clearly fixed and improved that team after a rough start.
• Leeds are scoring lots of goals and picking up points. They do have the occasional bad game, but having less of them, and are playing an exciting and enthralling style of play.
• Ipswich have been consistent throughout the season, scoring lots of goals against everyone.
• Leicester started off indifferently, then went on a great run where it looked like we had cracked it, and now seem a bit like the start of the season again. We are getting over the line, but the last "statement" victory was probably Southampton or Norwich away. Maybe the WBA game could be considered a statement victory, but not for me given how it ended.

I expected games 1-10 to be rough. Then games 11-20 to be OK. Then from game 21 onwards to really start hitting form. Leeds and Southampton if anything match this prediction, whereas Leicester seem to have been consistent in "winning in second gear" and "picking up points whilst looking unimpressive." At the end of the day results are the most important thing, but it feels like the next bad result is just around the corner, when just a month ago it seemed like promotion was a total formality.

Generally I think you're posts and insights are very good, but you've had a mare there.

 

What's this "games 1-10, 11-20, etc" malarkey? No team follows that kind of pattern. Games are won and lost at any given point and purple patches come at any time, be you fighting for a title or to avoid relegation. It's the beauty of football.

 

The pattern you describe roughly describes our Premier League winning season, but there have been plenty of times when champions have started well and faded to just hang on; been indifferent and go on a late run; had a blip mid-season, but pulled it back together.

 

Games 1-meh.

[HankMarvin]

3 hours ago, coolhandfox said:

All seasons have ebbs and flows.

 

Only 1 team in the last 20 years have match our point total after 19 games, Wolves in 08/09.

 

 

Not many of them

squads had FA Cup winners and players that were on the cusp of Champions league qualification.

Plus 11 squad members from 8th place finish prem finish.

[HighPeakFox]

1 hour ago, Collymore said:

I can't put it into to words, but it doesn't feel right on the pitch at the moment.

You seem to have managed  

[adejo92]

Whilst I am still not buying into the style of football yet, I will admit that was a massive improvement to anything I've seen these last few weeks.

 

Okay we had a bit of a lull mid way through,  but for large parts of the game I thought we looked like a top of the league side. We looked confident and much more direct than we have done for a long time.

 

Okay West Brom didn't offer an awful lot attacking wise, but their results show they are solid at the back and I don't think we caught them on an off day, we were just the superior team tactically and ability wise.

 

Hopefully we see more of the same on Saturday.

[STUHILL]

21 minutes ago, HankMarvin said:

Not many of them

squads had FA Cup winners and players that were on the cusp of Champions league qualification.

Plus 11 squad members from 8th place finish prem finish.

The most recent update on these players was a woeful relegated team from the Premier League, with most players wanting to leave in the Summer OR the fans wanting them gone. We lost our best players to transfers or frees, and were left with some deadwood and an over bloated squad with a handful of unhappy players, and a serious hangover from being relegated. 

 

Yes, we still have a handful of lower rated Premier League quality players, but if we take off our blue tinted specs, so do Leeds, so do Southampton and there are a few other players in the league that might get a start ahead of our line-up too. Our squad now would struggle to stay in the Premier League, so suggesting we have current FA Cup winning/8th place finishing standard players doesn't ring true anymore.

 

Add all this together, we really shouldn't underestimate the achievement of 15 wins out of 19, because we finished 8th in the Premier League by 1 point nearly 2 years ago. 

 

We are undoubtedly still a work in progress, but what the club and Enzo have achieved in just 19 games, should not really be sniffed at. 

 

There is still a long way to go, but we certainly have no divine right to walk this league, but we are doing a damn fine job of it so far. 

Edited 2 December 2023 by STUHILL

[StriderHiryu]

1 hour ago, Trav Le Bleu said:

Generally I think you're posts and insights are very good, but you've had a mare there.

 

What's this "games 1-10, 11-20, etc" malarkey? No team follows that kind of pattern. Games are won and lost at any given point and purple patches come at any time, be you fighting for a title or to avoid relegation. It's the beauty of football.

 

The pattern you describe roughly describes our Premier League winning season, but there have been plenty of times when champions have started well and faded to just hang on; been indifferent and go on a late run; had a blip mid-season, but pulled it back together.

 

Games 1-meh.

Southampton and Leeds are following that “malarkey” so I think you’ve had the mare not me. Southampton in their opening 10 games lost 5-0 away and 4-1 at home but are now on an unbeaten 12 game run. Leeds had poor results in their opening 10 but have turned the corner big time since then. All 3 relegated sides share similarities; new managers and large player turnover. 
 

When a new coach comes in with a whole new style and / or massive player turnover it takes time to gel the players with that style. Which is why results and performances are often indifferent to begin with before reaping rewards later, like Burnley last season. If this is so hard to follow then I’m not really sure what to say.

[Iwebema]

15 hours ago, StriderHiryu said:

One more thing. You may notice that in recent weeks I've been a lot more critical. That's because after 19 games, I feel like we've regressed a bit:

 

• Southampton started off horrifically, but Russel Martin has tidied up their defence and got them firing in goals. He has clearly fixed and improved that team after a rough start.
• Leeds are scoring lots of goals and picking up points. They do have the occasional bad game, but having less of them, and are playing an exciting and enthralling style of play.
• Ipswich have been consistent throughout the season, scoring lots of goals against everyone.
• Leicester started off indifferently, then went on a great run where it looked like we had cracked it, and now seem a bit like the start of the season again. We are getting over the line, but the last "statement" victory was probably Southampton or Norwich away. Maybe the WBA game could be considered a statement victory, but not for me given how it ended.

I expected games 1-10 to be rough. Then games 11-20 to be OK. Then from game 21 onwards to really start hitting form. Leeds and Southampton if anything match this prediction, whereas Leicester seem to have been consistent in "winning in second gear" and "picking up points whilst looking unimpressive." At the end of the day results are the most important thing, but it feels like the next bad result is just around the corner, when just a month ago it seemed like promotion was a total formality.

I do still feel we are in control of games, Sheffield Wednesday aside (where I thought we were really poor), I thought it was interesting to hear Winks after the game talk about the forward players are given freedom to try things, I wonder how much their collective poor form is playing a role? Mavididi, vardy, iheanacho, mcateer etc. dont look at it at all compared to the first few games.

I guess my positive spin on it is we still look solid and capable, I just wish we would put teams to bed, though in reality WBA away is a very tricky game, Ipswich got spanked there. 

Let's hope the last minute winner can spark something from our more creative players...atm I am leaning more to our wingers and strikers not taking advantage of the freedom allowed and taking "the easy route" of passing it off. 

[Trav Le Bleu]

7 hours ago, StriderHiryu said:

Southampton and Leeds are following that “malarkey” so I think you’ve had the mare not me. Southampton in their opening 10 games lost 5-0 away and 4-1 at home but are now on an unbeaten 12 game run. Leeds had poor results in their opening 10 but have turned the corner big time since then. All 3 relegated sides share similarities; new managers and large player turnover. 
 

When a new coach comes in with a whole new style and / or massive player turnover it takes time to gel the players with that style. Which is why results and performances are often indifferent to begin with before reaping rewards later, like Burnley last season. If this is so hard to follow then I’m not really sure what to say.

They are indeed. 

 

So you're basically saying, because they are following the predicted pattern so far it will continue, but we've missed the boat, so they'll catch us? (I'm not saying you are; I'm querying this as it's one way of reading it.)

 

I have a different hypothesis. Having started so well, other teams have seen they need to up their game against us and which kind tactics work against us.

 

With Leeds and Southampton having had poor starts, after 5-6 games, teams have maybe thought, "these are nothing special" and been caught out as they finally start gelling.

 

Of course, it's not as simple as that. If football management was simple we'd all be doing it (though we all seem to do it in our heads ).

 

I apologise for saying you've had a mare. It was because of your, as I've said previously, general high quality of insight that I noticed this. (Posts 1-1000 fair, 1001-2000 significant improvement, 2000+ generally impeccable (which is probably an oxymoron ))

 

 

[Trav Le Bleu]

27 minutes ago, Iwebema said:

I do still feel we are in control of games, Sheffield Wednesday aside (where I thought we were really poor), I thought it was interesting to hear Winks after the game talk about the forward players are given freedom to try things, I wonder how much their collective poor form is playing a role? Mavididi, vardy, iheanacho, mcateer etc. dont look at it at all compared to the first few games.

I guess my positive spin on it is we still look solid and capable, I just wish we would put teams to bed, though in reality WBA away is a very tricky game, Ipswich got spanked there. 

Let's hope the last minute winner can spark something from our more creative players...atm I am leaning more to our wingers and strikers not taking advantage of the freedom allowed and taking "the easy route" of passing it off. 

If there's one thing I'd like in January it's a striker.

 

Except no club is going to sell an in form striker mid-season

 

[l444ry]

Controlled the game for large parts against probably the form team of the League at the moment, making Albion bit part actors in proceedings. Was a bit frustrating in the first 20 mins of the second half when control was at its height and didn't seem to want to get behind WBA to take advantage but overall it was a top away performance. Sheffield Wednesday showing deserved pelters but I don't understand the criticism this time.    

[Iwebema]

35 minutes ago, Trav Le Bleu said:

If there's one thing I'd like in January it's a striker.

 

Except no club is going to sell an in form striker mid-season

 

💯 I am no tactics guru, but it looks quite obvious that not having an on form striker is really hurting us. When vardy had his mini purple patch a few games ago we looked excellent, but we can't expect him to do that for 46 games at his age. 

[westernpark]

The football is boring(largely) but can’t help but warm to Maresca. Football is about moments and that Winks goal, along with his last, is what it’s all about. I think mentally that will set us up nicely for some easier fixtures at home in the coming weeks.

[Noahfence]

3 minutes ago, westernpark said:

The football is boring(largely) but can’t help but warm to Maresca. Football is about moments and that Winks goal, along with his last, is what it’s all about. I think mentally that will set us up nicely for some easier fixtures at home in the coming weeks.

Agree with this. For the most part I find it boring but Enzo is such a likeable guy, really hope it gives us a bounce 

[Claudio Fannieri]

17 hours ago, StriderHiryu said:

One more thing. You may notice that in recent weeks I've been a lot more critical. That's because after 19 games, I feel like we've regressed a bit:

 

• Southampton started off horrifically, but Russel Martin has tidied up their defence and got them firing in goals. He has clearly fixed and improved that team after a rough start.
• Leeds are scoring lots of goals and picking up points. They do have the occasional bad game, but having less of them, and are playing an exciting and enthralling style of play.
• Ipswich have been consistent throughout the season, scoring lots of goals against everyone.
• Leicester started off indifferently, then went on a great run where it looked like we had cracked it, and now seem a bit like the start of the season again. We are getting over the line, but the last "statement" victory was probably Southampton or Norwich away. Maybe the WBA game could be considered a statement victory, but not for me given how it ended.

I expected games 1-10 to be rough. Then games 11-20 to be OK. Then from game 21 onwards to really start hitting form. Leeds and Southampton if anything match this prediction, whereas Leicester seem to have been consistent in "winning in second gear" and "picking up points whilst looking unimpressive." At the end of the day results are the most important thing, but it feels like the next bad result is just around the corner, when just a month ago it seemed like promotion was a total formality.

I do feel teams have watched Southampton and Blackburn try to match up to us and as a result got a bit of pummelling and from that they have identified they need to stop us getting out of sight, I really doubt we will pump anyone by 5 or 6 as teams are lining up with a formation that enables them to trigger a press with 2, 3 or at very best 4 targeting our defenders, Winks and Ricardo and then have 6 or 7 then playing deep.
 

West Brom threw caution to the wind twice, once to try and win and then to try and salvage the game and the 1st time we broke away and scored and the second time we broke away and could have tried a shot from

distance but rightly took the decision to retain possession and run the clock down. 
 

Teams will have a go at Leeds as they know they can hurt them, with us there is a genuine fear if they have a go we can blow them away quickly. So they press high with attackers but then look to sit deep and protect their goal, as long as it stays 0-0 or 1-0 they have a fighters chance against us. Even West Brom who are top 6 and at home were incredibly defensive and showed little ambition to break their shape until they absolutely had to. 
 

I don’t think we have been found out I just think teams have realised their only chance to get a result is to deploy a high press against our back line but then adopt a defensive block of 6, 7 even 8 players to protect their back line. That is why sometimes our 8’s and even 9 drop deeper and gain possession virtually unopposed in and around the centre circle. 
 

I actually think we are dealing with it well as we are still finding ways to grind out results. 
 

Enzo has been at the club less than 6 months, he is implementing a style that will continue to evolve, it’s so much easier to coach and set teams up to play a rigid defensive system than it is to develop/coach attacking patterns of play to negate these tactics.

 

He has also done a great job in completely overhauling the weak mentality, the relegation hangover and  the disconnect with the fanbase,  the reactions to poor results and conceding has been largely excellent this season, so many times in previous years we would have folded like a deck of cards but this squad has a togetherness and resilience that has long been missing. The reaction when we scored the winner yesterday was brilliant, the subs all celebrating, manager on the pitch and getting a yellow card, the players in with the fans, I feel like we are getting our Leicester back. 
 

yes we can all find fault with tactics, team selection, subs etc etc but overall he has done a fecking great job in fixing what was a broken club from top t bottom, so let’s get behind him, it might not be perfect at times but we are top, playing good football and we have a team to be proud of. 
 

15 wins out of 19 in the league and 17 out of 22 including cup, that is some good going especially when the majority of teams line up as though it’s a defence vs attack training drill. I fecking love Enzo and what he has done, he has been a breath of fresh air the beautiful bald Italian stallion 😍

[Dahnsouff]

Think @Claudio Fannieri you got it right there about how and why to play a certain way against us, certainly compared to Leeds, who are basically more reckless. I understand this  is more exciting, but it’s less controlled and less liable for results longer term. The low block and pressure high up the pitch, is certainly looking like the recognised way to attempt to unpick our extremely resolute defence.

[Livid]

If there was more of an end product no one would be calling this boring. It’s frustrating though we don’t create more and put teams away. 
 

I know we seem to have edged  number of games but you don’t win 15 out of 19 by pure luck. 
 

 

[Lillehamring]

10 hours ago, HankMarvin said:

Not many of them

squads had FA Cup winners and players that were on the cusp of Champions league qualification.

Plus 11 squad members from 8th place finish prem finish.

But if you look at the squad that played yesterday, only faes, ndidi, kdh, ricardo and nacho had played together with any regularity before this season - the others are either new to the club, up from the youth team or have been absent through  injury/out of favour.

So really the squad bears almost no relationship with those historical squads you mention.

[Lillehamring]

26 minutes ago, Claudio Fannieri said:

I do feel teams have watched Southampton and Blackburn try to match up to us and as a result got a bit of pummelling and from that they have identified they need to stop us getting out of sight, I really doubt we will pump anyone by 5 or 6 as teams are lining up with a formation that enables them to trigger a press with 2, 3 or at very best 4 targeting our defenders, Winks and Ricardo and then have 6 or 7 then playing deep.
 

West Brom threw caution to the wind twice, once to try and win and then to try and salvage the game and the 1st time we broke away and scored and the second time we broke away and could have tried a shot from

distance but rightly took the decision to retain possession and run the clock down. 
 

Teams will have a go at Leeds as they know they can hurt them, with us there is a genuine fear if they have a go we can blow them away quickly. So they press high with attackers but then look to sit deep and protect their goal, as long as it stays 0-0 or 1-0 they have a fighters chance against us. Even West Brom who are top 6 and at home were incredibly defensive and showed little ambition to break their shape until they absolutely had to. 
 

I don’t think we have been found out I just think teams have realised their only chance to get a result is to deploy a high press against our back line but then adopt a defensive block of 6, 7 even 8 players to protect their back line. That is why sometimes our 8’s and even 9 drop deeper and gain possession virtually unopposed in and around the centre circle. 
 

I actually think we are dealing with it well as we are still finding ways to grind out results. 
 

Enzo has been at the club less than 6 months, he is implementing a style that will continue to evolve, it’s so much easier to coach and set teams up to play a rigid defensive system than it is to develop/coach attacking patterns of play to negate these tactics.

 

He has also done a great job in completely overhauling the weak mentality, the relegation hangover and  the disconnect with the fanbase,  the reactions to poor results and conceding has been largely excellent this season, so many times in previous years we would have folded like a deck of cards but this squad has a togetherness and resilience that has long been missing. The reaction when we scored the winner yesterday was brilliant, the subs all celebrating, manager on the pitch and getting a yellow card, the players in with the fans, I feel like we are getting our Leicester back. 
 

yes we can all find fault with tactics, team selection, subs etc etc but overall he has done a fecking great job in fixing what was a broken club from top t bottom, so let’s get behind him, it might not be perfect at times but we are top, playing good football and we have a team to be proud of. 
 

15 wins out of 19 in the league and 17 out of 22 including cup, that is some good going especially when the majority of teams line up as though it’s a defence vs attack training drill. I fecking love Enzo and what he has done, he has been a breath of fresh air the beautiful bald Italian stallion 😍

This is exactly what i've observed.  And this being as it is, the only way we'll see anything other than low scoring games is when either a) we get better at finding the gaps in their deep sit, or b) we take advantage of these teams when they push for something at 60-70 minutes with the score at, as you suggest, 0-0 or 1-0 as we did against blackburn and preston.