Tactics Under Maresca

[StriderHiryu]

2 hours ago, Ric Flair said:

I'd love to hear his thoughts on how the striker in this system creates or has chances created for him.

 

There's likely a certain type of striker that fits this way of playing, but I'm not particularly interested if they're just a fluffer to create space for the maraudering 8's and wingers. I want a striker or a system that creates chances for their bagsman.

Both of our strikers have scored a decent amount of goals. When we attack, we have at least 5 players attacking the box at the same time, so there's lots of options to pick out, plus the opportunity to pick up the second ball. Arsenal last season (less so this) play in quite a similar way to us with a 3-2-2-3 shape when attacking, and the net result is that many players score goals. They had 4 players who scored more than 10 goals (2 scored 15) and even Xhaka scored 7. Jesus who was their striker did hit double figures and if he wasn't injured would probably have hit more.

 

Klopp's best Liverpool team also used Firmino to play as a false 9 and they scored tons. Firmino himself also scored a lot, even if the main men were Mane and Salah.

 

The point of contention for fans is that if the team just passes it around in a horseshoe for most of the game and isn't seen to be attacking, then fans are going to get fed up pretty quickly if the results aren't coming in.

[StriderHiryu]

1 minute ago, messerschmitt said:

That's the bit I don't understand, If you attack quickly your defenders are still in their defensive positions?

Looking at the Winks breakaway goal, If Iheanachos' pass to KDH had been intercepted, the defence couldn't have been better placed.

If KDH had somehow been tackled after getting into the opponent's half, we were still in a good defence position?

His point is that if you attack too quickly, you lose the ball on the transition, and you concede because your players aren't back / in position. English football has morphed big time over the last decade to become the most transitional league of them all. In most games these days, most goals are scored because the opposition made a mistake and concede 10-20 seconds after that mistake was made. The goal Winks scored shows the mistake in WBA's play; they committed too many players forwards and were too impatient to try and score the goal, so as soon as they lost it, they were in big trouble. Enzo's point would be that it's perfectly fine to attack with lots of players, but it's better to build the attack patiently so if something goes wrong, you aren't totally screwed. Try to make some short passes and engineer the chance, rather than just sending it into the mixer and leaving it to the footballing gods.

 

I'm not saying I subscribe to this school of thinking, I'm just taking what he's said and what we've seen so far. If it was down to me, I would have our team attack more often! Time to load up the latest Football Manager for me!

 

Enzo's football at his best, as shown with KDH's goal on Saturday attacks quickly, with verve and gusto. But it relies on patient play so that we attack when the spaces appear, and hold it when they don't.

[messerschmitt]

2 hours ago, Ric Flair said:

I'd love to hear his thoughts on how the striker in this system creates or has chances created for him.

 

There's likely a certain type of striker that fits this way of playing, but I'm not particularly interested if they're just a fluffer to create space for the maraudering 8's and wingers. I want a striker or a system that creates chances for their bagsman.

It's not going to happen with this system.

The way we play, the wingers and 8's are just as, if not more likely to get the scoring opportunities.

Not necessarily a bad thing as you don't rely on a single-goal scorer.

Personally,  I'm enjoying the football and find the tactics and methods fascinating.

 

[Lillehamring]

On 04/12/2023 at 17:37, FoxinNotts said:

I thought Vestergaard and Faes had great games. With Souttar and Coady waiting in the wings, we really are blessed, at this level.

Never thought I'd praise Vestergaard, but he really has proven me completely wrong.

He seems perfect in Enzo's system, but... only at this level. No way we could play Vestergaard in the Premier League, Enzo ball or no Enzo ball, IMO!

If we go up, it'll be interesting to see what we do with Janick. Whether he re-signs, and whether or not Enzo sees it the same as me, or he relies on him to repeat the trick at the higher level, with faster, better pressing teams.

Not sure if that's really something we can say - he's played his whole career at that level, no reason to suggest he can't do it in the prem playign enzoball - not every team (in fact probably the minority) of teams in the PL play a high press.

 

Not sure what systems he played in germany.

[Lillehamring]

On 04/12/2023 at 22:13, sacreblueits442 said:

... his speed like many players does not hurt the opposition when you know there is no end product at the end of it!!!

  Why elect to shoot with his left, he is an inverted winger for a reason.

 I would imagine if Clough had him as a player he would most likely issue a fine everytime he made these silly decisions. It needs to be brought to his attention,  not left for him to work it out.

We don't know what he's being coached - maybe he is being told where to improve but is just struggling to do so in game situations?

[Lillehamring]

On 05/12/2023 at 08:43, Dames said:

Its weird because when we had less options and 2 keepers on the bench he was using all 3 every game and they were having an impact. 

 

Hopefully its just teething issues as he’s still relatively new to management but it’s worked in the past for him so not sure why he’s not relying on it more.

To be fair, at that point he had at least 6 winger options that he didn't really know - and most of the rotation was in that position (plus#9)

I think he knows now when how and who he wants to use in those positions

[Ric Flair]

39 minutes ago, StriderHiryu said:

Both of our strikers have scored a decent amount of goals. When we attack, we have at least 5 players attacking the box at the same time, so there's lots of options to pick out, plus the opportunity to pick up the second ball. Arsenal last season (less so this) play in quite a similar way to us with a 3-2-2-3 shape when attacking, and the net result is that many players score goals. They had 4 players who scored more than 10 goals (2 scored 15) and even Xhaka scored 7. Jesus who was their striker did hit double figures and if he wasn't injured would probably have hit more.

 

Klopp's best Liverpool team also used Firmino to play as a false 9 and they scored tons. Firmino himself also scored a lot, even if the main men were Mane and Salah.

 

The point of contention for fans is that if the team just passes it around in a horseshoe for most of the game and isn't seen to be attacking, then fans are going to get fed up pretty quickly if the results aren't coming in.

I personally don't think our strikers have scored enough, nor been involved enough. 11 league goals in 19 games for a team who's supposedly to good for this level, 4 of which were penalties is average at best. 

[sacreblueits442]

25 minutes ago, Lillehamring said:

We don't know what he's being coached - maybe he is being told where to improve but is just struggling to do so in game situations?

...those attempts at goal have nothing to do with coaches asking anything of him!!!

  He had no idea what to do in those instances, his only idea was to put his foot through the ball shooting at an angle at the well guarded near post. Like Fatawu on the other side, once they run out of ideas what to do, they have a thrash at the ball.

  They both have the skill to execute in those situations, just need a better understanding of the threat that they can pose and the different ways to implement it.

[StriderHiryu]

21 minutes ago, Ric Flair said:

I personally don't think our strikers have scored enough, nor been involved enough. 11 league goals in 19 games for a team who's supposedly to good for this level, 4 of which were penalties is average at best. 

I agree. For a lot of the games it feels like we are playing with a man down, because they are nether attacking the box nor linking up play. But this could be a case where after a while it starts to click. Arsenal finished 8th, 8th, 5th and 2nd under Arteta and look like having a great chance to win the Premier League this season. In those seasons where they finished 8th they didn't look too good and fans were asked to "trust the process". For Arsenal, certain players really transformed them; Odegaard, Saka, Saliba and this season Rice. Even Gabriel Jesus who despite not being that prolific definitely improved them a lot when he first signed.

 

Enzo Maresca did make the best start to a Championship season ever, those are facts. So I think he deserves time to get things right. We can be critical, I know I am, but there is a lot to see already to get excited for.

 

 

[brucey]

2 hours ago, adejo92 said:

Did he keep a straight face when saying that?

Yup - he said Cannon being kept out by Vardy/Kel was an identical situation to Coady being kept out by Vesty. 

[coolhandfox]

People keep blaming the system but compare Vardy and Nacho to the top 4 goals scorers in the division.

 

All 4 are outperforming their xG, by more than 2.

 

Vardy is just ahead and Nacho is just behind, combined they are bang on their xG

 

They have both been bang average. 

 

Edited 7 December 2023 by coolhandfox

[adejo92]

5 minutes ago, brucey said:

Yup - he said Cannon being kept out by Vardy/Kel was an identical situation to Coady being kept out by Vesty. 

That I see. As much as I thought Coady was a great signing, and would walk into the team, Vesty has been undroppable. I thought Coady looked a bit uncomfortable on the ball when he played the other week but that's likely down to rust.

 

Cannon situation is odd though imo. Enzo has put to bed the 'not fully fit' brigade. I don't expect Cannon to start, and I don't expect him to be the answer to our striking problems, but I don't see how he didn't get some game time these last couple of games when Nacho & Vardy (especially Nacho) have been none existent.

[Lillehamring]

3 hours ago, filbertway said:

Gotta say, that's not great reading.

 

Its like having a sexy Gary Megson. Obsessed with not conceding and if we get a goal than thats a bonus 

 

I'm 99% sure the concensus will be Enzo out before Jan 2025 if he really isn't willing to adapt his methodology.

 

I just dont see how his vision of football can be successful when youre one of the weaker teams in a division.

I doubt it'll be anywhere near a consensus:   

- some people enjoy watching this type of domineering football.

- some people won't care one way or the other as long as we're getting the results (anything is better than last season, right?)

- and the remaining section of people who want him out will just be the usual suspects who are never happy, regardless of how we're playing.

- maybe there will be a small group who don't care about results but want to see football that barely exists these days.

 

Ultimately though, as long as the results are good the consensus will be happy for him to continue - 

[HarryDee8]

why doesnt he give cannon atleast 5 minutes towards the end of the game as a sub.  

 

Get him some game time experience at least

Edited 7 December 2023 by HarryDee8

[Lillehamring]

2 hours ago, messerschmitt said:

That's the bit I don't understand, If you attack quickly your defenders are still in their defensive positions?

Looking at the Winks breakaway goal, If Iheanachos' pass to KDH had been intercepted, the defence couldn't have been better placed.

If KDH had somehow been tackled after getting into the opponent's half, we were still in a good defence position?

But he's talking about general play, when our backline is sitting on the halfway line - which tends to be the norm against most of these teams.  If we hurry attacks in that situation the defenders are caught out of position, defensively.

 

The scenario surrounding the winks goal was a situation where the 'system' doesn't apply.  The system is for general play - the winks goal was just what teams do in that situation - there's no tactics, it's purely down to individual decision making and application.

[lcfcsnow]

11 hours ago, StriderHiryu said:

The bit about keeping the ball, I don't have a problem with that because you literally cannot concede a goal if you have possession of the ball. And it's not like we don't want to attack, the idea is to attack at the right time.

FAO Enzo

Match stats

	TEAM STATS
22	Shots	2
7	Shots on target	2
46%	Possession	54%
436	Passes	520

 

I guess they didn't find the right time to attack. 

[Lillehamring]

1 hour ago, sacreblueits442 said:

...those attempts at goal have nothing to do with coaches asking anything of him!!!

  He had no idea what to do in those instances, his only idea was to put his foot through the ball shooting at an angle at the well guarded near post. Like Fatawu on the other side, once they run out of ideas what to do, they have a thrash at the ball.

  They both have the skill to execute in those situations, just need a better understanding of the threat that they can pose and the different ways to implement it.

 I made no conjecture on this issue, just querying your claim that he isn't being coached 

[messerschmitt]

6 minutes ago, Lillehamring said:

But he's talking about general play, when our backline is sitting on the halfway line - which tends to be the norm against most of these teams.  If we hurry attacks in that situation the defenders are caught out of position, defensively.

 

The scenario surrounding the winks goal was a situation where the 'system' doesn't apply.  The system is for general play - the winks goal was just what teams do in that situation - there's no tactics, it's purely down to individual decision making and application.

Thanks, I misunderstood the general play bit.

[Lillehamring]

1 hour ago, Ric Flair said:

I personally don't think our strikers have scored enough, nor been involved enough. 11 league goals in 19 games for a team who's supposedly to good for this level, 4 of which were penalties is average at best. 

This is true, but i don't feel it's a tactical issue, more a personnel issue.

Clearly, with all the rebuild required, having vardy and nacho as your main strikers at this level, it was probably felt that this wasn't an area that needed strengthening (yes, cannon was brought in but perhaps not seen as an immediate option up front).

 

Unfortunately, it's proven that neither vardy or nacho can thrive in this system.

I doubt that they'll make any changes in january as, whilst it isn't a great situation, it's not costing us, as we're still scoring plenty of goals, and i assume they'll prefer to sign a striker if and when we get promoted.  Though it does feel like cannon might get more time this season than was likely when he was brought in.

[filbertway]

1 hour ago, Lillehamring said:

I doubt it'll be anywhere near a consensus:   

- some people enjoy watching this type of domineering football.

- some people won't care one way or the other as long as we're getting the results (anything is better than last season, right?)

- and the remaining section of people who want him out will just be the usual suspects who are never happy, regardless of how we're playing.

- maybe there will be a small group who don't care about results but want to see football that barely exists these days.

 

Ultimately though, as long as the results are good the consensus will be happy for him to continue - 

I agree, results keep managers in a job.

 

I don't see this being a successful way of playing if we go up. 

 

I hope his comments were a bit of naivety and he realises that he can't just cling onto one style if results start faltering. I find Enzo incredibly likeable so giving him every chance in my mind. I never really look at things as they are now, I'm always looking a year or two ahead. It's easy to have the blinkers on now if you're short-termist, "we're top of the  league", "stop worrying", "just enjoy it". 

 

I am the type of person that exclusively signs 16-20 year old on football manager and sees someone as part of the old guard when they hit 24/25

 

In all seriousness though, without an incredible transfer window next summer I struggle to see how this system doesn't see us get routinely punished by Premier League attacks. This system struggled to create good chances against weaker opposition and still gives up good opportunities that better teams will turn into shots and goals.

 

It's very much like we're having a beautiful drive in the sun by the beach and I feel like one of the few worried about this extremely steep cliff we appear to be approaching

 

 All I want to hear is "this feels like the safest approach to going up, next season we may need to tweak things when we play better teams than ourselves". He's a lovely beautiful guy, I don't want him getting that Claude Puel treatment.

[Gamble92]

5 hours ago, filbertway said:

Gotta say, that's not great reading.

 

Its like having a sexy Gary Megson. Obsessed with not conceding and if we get a goal than thats a bonus 

 

I'm 99% sure the concensus will be Enzo out before Jan 2025 if he really isn't willing to adapt his methodology.

 

I just dont see how his vision of football can be successful when youre one of the weaker teams in a division.

Wait, Gary Megson wasn't sexy?

[filbertway]

14 minutes ago, Gamble92 said:

Wait, Gary Megson wasn't sexy?

Well it's all subjective I suppose. There's gotta be someone out there that wants to be the meat in a Gary Megson/Steve Cooper sandwich.

[messerschmitt]

6 hours ago, Ric Flair said:

I'd love to hear his thoughts on how the striker in this system creates or has chances created for him.

 

There's likely a certain type of striker that fits this way of playing, but I'm not particularly interested if they're just a fluffer to create space for the maraudering 8's and wingers. I want a striker or a system that creates chances for their bagsman.

I would have thought someone like Giroud would be ideal. Can you use your scouting skills to find a younger unknown version?

[Ric Flair]

9 minutes ago, messerschmitt said:

I would have thought someone like Giroud would be ideal. Can you use your scouting skills to find a younger unknown version?

Rafiu Durosinmi from Viktoria Plzen was someone I'd looked at a few months back. But he's done his ACL 😂

 

Quite like Fotis Ioannidis from Panathanakios too.

[LVFox]

2 minutes ago, Ric Flair said:

Rafiu Durosinmi from Viktoria Plzen was someone I'd looked at a few months back. But he's done his ACL 😂

 

Quite like Fotis Ioannidis from Panathanakios too.

Ioannidis is good, I've been looking into Manual Ugarte at Twente too but maybe more of a pressing menace than a link up striker.

 

Bojan Miovski at Aberdeen also a good option.