Tactics Under Maresca

[Dan LCFC]

15 minutes ago, Chrysalis said:

I would put them in the top 50 percentile, they have been bad in their previous games, but I am judging them against us.  Interesting as well many neutrals say the game against us was the best they have played under rooney as well.

 

The worst team I feel was stoke, they just gave us way too much respect and sat back the entire game, they barely moved across the halfway line, and Vesty was even able to stroll forward with the ball without even the threat of a tackle.

No way they're in the top half of teams we've played for me, think their efficiency in front of goal has clouded views here, they had one shot all second half for example.

 

Agree on Stoke though. Them and Preston were an absolute joke away to us.

[Chrysalis]

Seen Enzo's interview now, he made his point we not changing to a counter attacking team, but also said we will do counter attacks occasionally if we need to.  Hopefully the interview doesnt make him revert, but I get the impression its a case of him learning what is working and adding the flexibility to the play.

[Lillehamring]

3 hours ago, James_lcfc said:

Well it made for a really entertaining game, so I was pleased they played the way they did.

 

...but I think the best call for Birmingham against us would have been to sit very deep and frustrate us. Then hope their half decent attacking players could snatch something when/if the time came.

 

I know lots of teams have tried and failed to do this, but doing what Hull did would have been their best opportunity for success.

 

We should have scored 6 or 7 last night.

There has been a pattern of teams starting strong with a press, but retreating fairly quickly, sitting deep and then going for it with 10-20 minutes left - that's what sheffield, millwall and now birmingham have done (others too, but these are the ones that most recently spring to mind) - it can work, certainly got SW a point and both millwall and brum got late goals; hull, boro and west brom were more adventurous in that they attacked heavily when they saw an opportunity throughout the game but without a high press like sunderland, leeds and plymouth did.

 

At bottom, i don't think it matters what teams do, we're too good for most of them and the system seems to have an answer for every opposition approach.  The only time it's failed is when the team have been off form up front.

[Lillehamring]

3 hours ago, StriderHiryu said:

Beware of the Chair! I've been to see QPR play a few times over the last 2 seasons as a mate has season tickets there, and personally I think he's really overrated. Technically he is very good, he has a brilliant first touch and strikes the ball beautifully both for passing and shooting. But I just don't see someone who has the engine or workrate to play in a modern day Premier League team. I think a good comparison to him is Anthony Knockaert who was great in the Championship but could never do it in the Premier League.

 

EDIT: Just to add, I got to see Ebrechi Eze play for QPR a few times before he went to Palace, and he looked phenomenal. A player I was disappointed we didn't sign TBH! Comparatively, Chair is nowhere near that standard. Their best player that I have seen since then is probably Chris Willock, but he's not a Premier League player for me either.

 

 

 

 

 

Fair enough, but what about if he was playing in, effectively, a front five where there is less individual pressure to produce, as he would be with us.

[davieG]

Enzo's attacking formation is more or less the formation that teams used up to the early 60s if you drop the Centre Half back, just different names

 

 

[StriderHiryu]

7 minutes ago, Lillehamring said:

Fair enough, but what about if he was playing in, effectively, a front five where there is less individual pressure to produce, as he would be with us.

Ultimately, until we saw him play in our team after a run of games, there's no way of telling.

 

Hs overall defensive contribution is weak, too many times I've seen him lose the ball or give it away and not bother to track back or attempt to win it back. Against Birmingham, Stephy Mavididi scored two goals but also made 6 tackles in the game, the highest of any player on the pitch. Maybe Chair could learn that side of the game, but add to that his short stature and his slightly podgy build and it doesn't make for a good recipe for what we are looking for. Fatawu and Mavididi are both physically imposing and that helps the team when it comes to switched long balls, and set pieces for both the offensive and defensive sides of the game.

 

The player he is most similar to in our squad is Yunus Akgun, who to be fair has impressed me and many others every time he's played. But unlike Callum Doyle or Abdul Fatawu, he hasn't yet been able to nail down a starting role, though admittedly he's been hindered by injuries. I will also say in Chair's favour that since the new QPR coach came in, he's been one of their better players since they've shifted back to more of a front-foot approach in games.

 

So maybe there is a player in there and he could contribute, but I think his workrate would have to increase massively. As it stands, he strikes me as a good player for the Championship who might also do well for a lower 5 team in the Premier League. That's why I don't think we were in for him, as I think we are aiming higher. I also don't think QPR would sell in January because they are in big trouble of going down.

[StriderHiryu]

4 minutes ago, davieG said:

Enzo's attacking formation is more or less the formation that teams used up to the early 60s if you drop the Centre Half back, just different names

 

 

Yep it was also used in the 30's by Herbert Chapman at Arsenal:

https://www.coachesvoice.com/cv/wm-formation-football-tactics-explained-tuchel-guardiola-chapman/

 

So it's kind of cool that something that was discovered so early on became relevant again. It's because of all the passing triangles the system produces all over the pitch. The big differences being that the game has sped up massively, so the formation is way more dynamic and the passing at light speed compared to back then.

[Lillehamring]

2 hours ago, StriderHiryu said:

Ultimately, until we saw him play in our team after a run of games, there's no way of telling.

 

Hs overall defensive contribution is weak, too many times I've seen him lose the ball or give it away and not bother to track back or attempt to win it back. Against Birmingham, Stephy Mavididi scored two goals but also made 6 tackles in the game, the highest of any player on the pitch. Maybe Chair could learn that side of the game, but add to that his short stature and his slightly podgy build and it doesn't make for a good recipe for what we are looking for. Fatawu and Mavididi are both physically imposing and that helps the team when it comes to switched long balls, and set pieces for both the offensive and defensive sides of the game.

 

The player he is most similar to in our squad is Yunus Akgun, who to be fair has impressed me and many others every time he's played. But unlike Callum Doyle or Abdul Fatawu, he hasn't yet been able to nail down a starting role, though admittedly he's been hindered by injuries. I will also say in Chair's favour that since the new QPR coach came in, he's been one of their better players since they've shifted back to more of a front-foot approach in games.

 

So maybe there is a player in there and he could contribute, but I think his workrate would have to increase massively. As it stands, he strikes me as a good player for the Championship who might also do well for a lower 5 team in the Premier League. That's why I don't think we were in for him, as I think we are aiming higher. I also don't think QPR would sell in January because they are in big trouble of going down.

I must have seen him play one of his better games!

[OntarioFox]

3 hours ago, Chrysalis said:

Seen Enzo's interview now, he made his point we not changing to a counter attacking team, but also said we will do counter attacks occasionally if we need to.  Hopefully the interview doesnt make him revert, but I get the impression its a case of him learning what is working and adding the flexibility to the play.

For sure - plus, we've now established a reputation as a possession team that tires teams out in a game of attrition. Hell, he's had his own masterclass episode where he said as much publicly.

 

It is very promising to have seen in recent games that we can exploit naive attempts to beat the plan A through pressing and that we have counter attacking and even Route 1 (Daka vs. Plymouth) in our locker if needed.

 

Though I do get the feeling that they won't be using the 'Justin hammering the ball against our own post' tactic again any time soon. 

[davieG]

2 hours ago, StriderHiryu said:

Yep it was also used in the 30's by Herbert Chapman at Arsenal:

https://www.coachesvoice.com/cv/wm-formation-football-tactics-explained-tuchel-guardiola-chapman/

 

So it's kind of cool that something that was discovered so early on became relevant again. It's because of all the passing triangles the system produces all over the pitch. The big differences being that the game has sped up massively, so the formation is way more dynamic and the passing at light speed compared to back then.

Also teams didn’t go out to focus on stopping the other team by parking the bus. Both teams just tried to score more goals than the other team. I guess that’s why there were plenty of high scoring games.

[fuchsntf]

On 13/12/2023 at 07:51, Lionator said:

Enzo has received criticism for not having a plan B but Saturday showed us there is a plan B but within plan A, if that makes sense. We have one structure, but we can adapt within that structure. 

It's called tweaking, I suppose... 

Funny about all these debates, posters concentrate far too much on their own perspection & own ideas of what's what, kick up a fuss, to claim some bragging rights, to spotting mystifying

blocks, presses, set ups and irons in the system should sorted this way, Not that way.. When has any plan B or C kicked in, or same-O, Same-O, just a tweak with changing players over.!! 

 

In all this Analyse, debate, sarcasm, and exchange & reaction of what one is really happening... PEOPLE FORGET.. 

There are 2 teams & managers  who do their own thing.. 

 

THEN buggar me.....! 

FOOTBALL Dares to GET IN THE WAY..... 

 

 

So unfair.. 

[honeybradger]

On 19/12/2023 at 07:27, Matt said:

Enzo: "We don't like counter-attacking".

 

No Enzo, we fucking love it.

Is it possible that there's a communication issue? Maybe for Maresca counter attacking primarily references sitting behind the ball and letting the opposition have possession whilst for the fans counter attacking means quickly transitioning the ball up the pitch when there's space. We certainly did not seem to 'hate' moving the ball quickly up the pitch as seen on Monday. Hopefully he is not opposed to quick transitions as, for me, those first two goals we scored were peak football.

[Manley Farrington-Brown]

10 minutes ago, honeybradger said:

Is it possible that there's a communication issue? Maybe for Maresca counter attacking primarily references sitting behind the ball and letting the opposition have possession whilst for the fans counter attacking means quickly transitioning the ball up the pitch when there's space. We certainly did not seem to 'hate' moving the ball quickly up the pitch as seen on Monday. Hopefully he is not opposed to quick transitions as, for me, those first two goals we scored were peak football.

I think it's fairly clear that what he means is he doesn't like counter-attacking as a primary tactic. He's never going to send a team out to sit back, let the other team dominate, but plan to hit them on the break. But while we'll always aim to control the game by dominating possession, the other team's always going to get the ball sometimes, and when they do attack, if they commit numbers forward, he wants us to be able to hit them hard and fast.

TL:DR - he has no problem with 'counter-attacks,' but he doesn't like 'counter-attacking' to be the main tactic.

[HarryDee8]

Got to shut up shop at the back. It's a little too easily to score against us. We could have drawn both the last 2 games if the opp had been more clinical 

[James_lcfc]

54 minutes ago, HarryDee8 said:

Got to shut up shop at the back. It's a little too easily to score against us. We could have drawn both the last 2 games if the opp had been more clinical 

True, but we could have scored 7 or 8 as well.

 

We could be like Newcastle under Keegan in the 90's and not worry about the defence! 

[l444ry]

Not sure if already posted. 

 Coaches' Voice | Creating your method (coachesvoice.com)

 

[KP Fox]

I don't pretend to know anything about Enzo's way but I do know that when the opposition attack our forwards are ready and waiting in their position. This includes Patson and young Cannon. When the opposition attack ends that's when ours begins. Whether it be Jannick heading a clearance or Mads passing or even when the opposition hit the woodwork - our forwards are ready to pounce. We miss lots of chances because we create lots of chances! 

[HarryDee8]

I was confused with Enzo saying we don't counter attack. However when your breaking at pace from your own half and trying to go direct, that is counter attack 🤔

[Aleksz]

36 minutes ago, HarryDee8 said:

I was confused with Enzo saying we don't counter attack. However when your breaking at pace from your own half and trying to go direct, that is counter attack 🤔

I think his point was more we actively don’t set up to sit deep and counter attack. But when teams open themselves up like Birmingham did the other night then it plays into your own hands really.

[StriderHiryu]

 

This is my favourite tactics based channel. Yes it's about Villa, but it also talks about the 3-2-5 shape that we use, and that Arsenal are currently using too. Also a nod to the 442 defensive block Ranieri used so well in 15/16.

 

 

 

 

Edited 21 December 2023 by StriderHiryu

[Lillehamring]

9 hours ago, StriderHiryu said:

 

This is my favourite tactics based channel. Yes it's about Villa, but it also talks about the 3-2-5 shape that we use, and that Arsenal are currently using too. Also a nod to the 442 defensive block Ranieri used so well in 15/16.

 

 

 

 

Can't watch emery without thinking of....

 

[Gamble92]

On 20/12/2023 at 08:59, honeybradger said:

Is it possible that there's a communication issue? Maybe for Maresca counter attacking primarily references sitting behind the ball and letting the opposition have possession whilst for the fans counter attacking means quickly transitioning the ball up the pitch when there's space. We certainly did not seem to 'hate' moving the ball quickly up the pitch as seen on Monday. Hopefully he is not opposed to quick transitions as, for me, those first two goals we scored were peak football.

Think it's more he doesn't want to be associated with that style of play. The interviewer kind of suggested we play like that a lot. Let's face it, football commentators and pundits are very basic in their analysis, and he was probably stuck in the 2015 Leicester lazy analysis. Maresca quickly shot it down. 

[Mushtaq]

On 20/12/2023 at 08:59, honeybradger said:

Is it possible that there's a communication issue? Maybe for Maresca counter attacking primarily references sitting behind the ball and letting the opposition have possession whilst for the fans counter attacking means quickly transitioning the ball up the pitch when there's space. We certainly did not seem to 'hate' moving the ball quickly up the pitch as seen on Monday. Hopefully he is not opposed to quick transitions as, for me, those first two goals we scored were peak football.

In some ways isn’t this two sides of the same coin?  The difference is who starts with the ball.  There’s sitting back when the opposition have the ball and encouraging them to commit players forward which allows opportunities if the attack breaks down/they lose the ball.  On the other side there’s playing the ball out deliberately from the back with emphasis on retain possession, particularly when the opposition are pressing high.  This can ironically give the impression of taking extreme risks but the rewards are high if the press can be beaten.

[fox_favourite]

I find it refreshing that we have a manager that is learning, and adapting. Monday was so refreshing and you can tell Brum were set up (badly) to press high to contain our control passing. Then bosh bye, bye we can counter. 

 

He's learning as we go along and it's working. The players seem to trust him as well.

[Chrysalis]

On 19/12/2023 at 21:52, OntarioFox said:

For sure - plus, we've now established a reputation as a possession team that tires teams out in a game of attrition. Hell, he's had his own masterclass episode where he said as much publicly.

 

It is very promising to have seen in recent games that we can exploit naive attempts to beat the plan A through pressing and that we have counter attacking and even Route 1 (Daka vs. Plymouth) in our locker if needed.

 

Though I do get the feeling that they won't be using the 'Justin hammering the ball against our own post' tactic again any time soon. 

Indeed, the result will be at some point teams will be fearful of our counter and wont press as much which will in turn improve the results of possession based play, this is why I think the two work well with each other, and its not as a simple as a either all out possession or all out counter.