Tactics Under Maresca

[Lillehamring]

29 minutes ago, DJ Barry Hammond said:

Behave!

 

Kelechi deserves credit for his involvement for that goal, he had to secure posession, turn, not fall over and the weight of pass was well judged, allowing KDH to take it up in stride.

Except his first touch sends the ball into his own knee then bounces off a west brom player -  it wasn't great, he just reacted quickly to win it back. The rest of the move is great, but as safewayfox says - it's just a nice pass, not that difficult.

 

I think it also emphasises the frustration about him - his floor and ceiling are just too far apart, he can be wonderful and dreadful in the same move.

[Hirsty The Blue 94]

The in game management versus Ipswich was really poor, didn't necessarily disagree with the Nacho sub as the ball was bouncing off Daka in 2nd half and coming straight back so saw the logic in bringing him on. What materialised was Nacho being even worse in terms of his hold up play bar that one counter attack which nearly set KDH away. But bringing the 2 grafting midfielders off for 2 attacking midfielders who have no defensive instincts and are weak against a team who are going to chuck everything at you for the last half hour was moronic. If you're shutting up shop for a 1-0 stick Hamza in alongside Winks.

 

If it was the case that they were both tired after playing the majority of the game against Rotherham, then one of both of them should have been rested for that game in preparation for Ipswich, same with Justin if he can only do 1 in 2 pick the big game. With the greatest respect to Rotherham they were never going to cause us problems no matter what side we put out.

 

From the whispers on the grape vine there is very little if any money to do much in January unless people are moved on, but we're absolute desperate for cover in that midfield position, particularly with Wilf potentially missing a month of it through AFCON. The drop off when him or KDH either don't start or come off is frightening. 

 

I'd suggest Enzo has enough credit in the bank currently for us not to worry too much about it, but hopefully those 2 points dropped aren't costly at the business end.

[SafewayFox]

7 hours ago, DJ Barry Hammond said:

Behave!

 

Kelechi deserves credit for his involvement for that goal, he had to secure posession, turn, not fall over and the weight of pass was well judged, allowing KDH to take it up in stride.

I rewatched the goal before even posting that comment but I’ll break down his involvement with the goal before behaving myself 😘

 

Secure possession? You mean where his first touch bounces off a WBA player, this “turn” you say is him then turning his body to run forward (not seeing any sublime skill so far).

 

You’re right that he does then show some strength/composure to hold a player off (he does have his body in front of the ball but hey ho, let’s give him credit for that one).

 

He then takes 2/3 strides which is the right thing to do so he’s not off balance when he plays a 10/15 yard pass into an empty opposition half.
 

Watch it back (without the Kelechi pink tinted glasses) and say it happens any differently….I’m merely pointing out how some players on here appear to get more credit than others btw.

 

If Casadei did what Kelechi did….I’m telling you now, you wouldn’t be telling me to behave myself.

 

 

Edited 28 December 2023 by SafewayFox

[fuchsntf]

9 hours ago, Hirsty The Blue 94 said:

The in game management versus Ipswich was really poor, didn't necessarily disagree with the Nacho sub as the ball was bouncing off Daka in 2nd half and coming straight back so saw the logic in bringing him on. What materialised was Nacho being even worse in terms of his hold up play bar that one counter attack which nearly set KDH away. But bringing the 2 grafting midfielders off for 2 attacking midfielders who have no defensive instincts and are weak against a team who are going to chuck everything at you for the last half hour was moronic. If you're shutting up shop for a 1-0 stick Hamza in alongside Winks.

 

If it was the case that they were both tired after playing the majority of the game against Rotherham, then one of both of them should have been rested for that game in preparation for Ipswich, same with Justin if he can only do 1 in 2 pick the big game. With the greatest respect to Rotherham they were never going to cause us problems no matter what side we put out.

 

From the whispers on the grape vine there is very little if any money to do much in January unless people are moved on, but we're absolute desperate for cover in that midfield position, particularly with Wilf potentially missing a month of it through AFCON. The drop off when him or KDH either don't start or come off is frightening. 

 

I'd suggest Enzo has enough credit in the bank currently for us not to worry too much about it, but hopefully those 2 points dropped aren't costly at the business end.

I think with FTs short history, and desperate analyze to put problems where there isnt any... Gives Enzo the Bank, and throws most of FT into the poor credit rating... 

 

Many fail to grasp, even now Enzo has to grapple with, many findings are only now coming to the the surface...which players are the ones who are starting to own their right to be considered first choice, and which positions can be covered to keep the rhythm going.. 

 

Many opinions have been formed too early or quickly, Enzo has and will carry on making tweaks, because he is still in the process of rebuild & weekly discovery but still needs to juggle because of this league's fixtures having long periods of heavy wear upon squad resources.

 

Plus because of knocks and injuries, he from his side can't be positive who is available at any one time.. Who can still be selected, though they were marked for rotation, or tactical changes. 

This squad is still finding its way, too many opinions ride the idea that we have reached... Knowing which players are the first automatic choicers, in Enzo's selection-system ideology.. 

Duties have not been issued for any part of the campaign... ENZO knows, he has to balance and tweak, while still testing, experiment... & discovery

 

Fans are taking on thoughts that are of their own making, nothing to do with

What is being played out before them in  forming the squad for the whole seasons various periods, while still creating the systems various phases. 

 

WE Ain't yet the finished product. 

Edited 28 December 2023 by fuchsntf

[DJ Barry Hammond]

14 hours ago, SafewayFox said:

If Casadei did what Kelechi did….I’m telling you now, you wouldn’t be telling me to behave myself.

 

I’m not a fan of Kelechi. 
 

Note the inclusion of “not fall over” within my items of praise! 

 

I think he’s a forward without a unclear future in the game because his stronger attributes and general play seems ill-suited to playing up top on his own which is a pre-requisite for most teams.

 

But my personal view as to his overall position in the team doesn’t stop me from recognising good play that we benefited from. 

Edited 28 December 2023 by DJ Barry Hammond

[Lillehamring]

14 hours ago, Hirsty The Blue 94 said:

The in game management versus Ipswich was really poor, didn't necessarily disagree with the Nacho sub as the ball was bouncing off Daka in 2nd half and coming straight back so saw the logic in bringing him on. What materialised was Nacho being even worse in terms of his hold up play bar that one counter attack which nearly set KDH away. But bringing the 2 grafting midfielders off for 2 attacking midfielders who have no defensive instincts and are weak against a team who are going to chuck everything at you for the last half hour was moronic. If you're shutting up shop for a 1-0 stick Hamza in alongside Winks.

 

If it was the case that they were both tired after playing the majority of the game against Rotherham, then one of both of them should have been rested for that game in preparation for Ipswich, same with Justin if he can only do 1 in 2 pick the big game. With the greatest respect to Rotherham they were never going to cause us problems no matter what side we put out.

 

From the whispers on the grape vine there is very little if any money to do much in January unless people are moved on, but we're absolute desperate for cover in that midfield position, particularly with Wilf potentially missing a month of it through AFCON. The drop off when him or KDH either don't start or come off is frightening. 

 

I'd suggest Enzo has enough credit in the bank currently for us not to worry too much about it, but hopefully those 2 points dropped aren't costly at the business end.

I think it's probably more that we don't have squad space rather than money - 5 or 10M is nothing compared to what we'll earn if we go up, but if we buy someone new without selling, someone will have to be cut.

 

 Also, i know we look better when wilf plays but equally some of our worst outings have involved him too - he was on the pitch for most of the Hull game (including when we conceded), he came on against wednesday where we then threw away points, and played 90 minutes in the millwall and birmingham games - so your suggestion regarding the drop-off in our performances without him being frightening is nonsense - basically, other than an unlucky dropped point to ipswich and the leeds and boro games (again the boro game we were the better team), whenever he's not played we've won.

Edited 28 December 2023 by Lillehamring

[Lillehamring]

2 hours ago, DJ Barry Hammond said:

I’m not a fan of Kelechi. 
 

Note the inclusion of “not fall over” within my items of praise! 

 

I think he’s a forward without a clear future in the game because his stronger attributes and general play seems ill-suited to playing up top on his own which is a pre-requisite for most teams.

 

But my personal view as to his overall position in the team doesn’t stop me from recognising good play that we benefited from. 

Credit where it's due is fine - but how many times have we actually been able to say good things about him.  That we can only really pick out one moment in the 370+ minutes of football since he last scored kind of emphasises how mediocre the guy is.  And that one moment wasn't exactly sublime football, just a well weighted pace into acres of space.

[DJ Barry Hammond]

1 hour ago, Lillehamring said:

Credit where it's due is fine - but how many times have we actually been able to say good things about him.  That we can only really pick out one moment in the 370+ minutes of football since he last scored kind of emphasises how mediocre the guy is.  And that one moment wasn't exactly sublime football, just a well weighted pace into acres of space.

I simply called out a comment that he shouldn’t be praised for his role in the Winks goal at West Brom because it was ‘a simple pass’ that any player could have done.

I don’t understand why as a fan base we would look to diminish a players involvement when they’ve done something positive for the team - regardless of how simple that involvement may seem.

 

That just doesn’t seem very supportive to me - and is not conducive to creating an atmosphere that supports success. 

[SafewayFox]

52 minutes ago, DJ Barry Hammond said:

I simply called out a comment that he shouldn’t be praised for his role in the Winks goal at West Brom because it was ‘a simple pass’ that any player could have done.

I don’t understand why as a fan base we would look to diminish a players involvement when they’ve done something positive for the team - regardless of how simple that involvement may seem.

 

That just doesn’t seem very supportive to me - and is not conducive to creating an atmosphere that supports success. 

Or completely miss my point and make a dig about my support for a club that I’ve followed since a little kid? 🤯

 

I was merely stating that Kelechi (and others previously) get undeserved praise whilst highlighting other players currently Casadei as an example get the opposite treatment.

 

Re-read my first comment (it’s only one page back) and see me get frustrated with the OTT comments about Cannon being rubbish etc, whilst the same posters praise Kelechi even after his below par performances this season.

 

 

[Matt]

Found quite a refreshing and fascinating (To me) article which articulately says how I feel about the game overall.

 

For the record, I reiterate (again), I'm actually enjoying how we're playing this season in general, firstly because I understand and agree with the theory behind it - in this league, secondly because it's actually working, anyone who is saying this style works unequivocally needs to look back at our previous 2 seasons and thirdly imo it's not pure, rigid, possession based football but if/when we go up, I fear for us and I don't think it'll work, no-one is going to be coming up against Leicester in the PL scared and there will be no excuse or reason to play like it - time will tell and it's not to worry about, yet.

 

Anyway, to the article - We/Enzo get's a mention in the final paragraph:

In football’s third age, old certainties have melted away and nothing is as it seems | Football tactics | The Guardian

 

@StriderHiryu

[StriderHiryu]

4 hours ago, Matt said:

Found quite a refreshing and fascinating (To me) article which articulately says how I feel about the game overall.

 

For the record, I reiterate (again), I'm actually enjoying how we're playing this season in general, firstly because I understand and agree with the theory behind it - in this league, secondly because it's actually working, anyone who is saying this style works unequivocally needs to look back at our previous 2 seasons and thirdly imo it's not pure, rigid, possession based football but if/when we go up, I fear for us and I don't think it'll work, no-one is going to be coming up against Leicester in the PL scared and there will be no excuse or reason to play like it - time will tell and it's not to worry about, yet.

 

Anyway, to the article - We/Enzo get's a mention in the final paragraph:

In football’s third age, old certainties have melted away and nothing is as it seems | Football tactics | The Guardian

 

@StriderHiryu

There's a great paragraph in that article:
 

The past decade has largely been a reaction to the extreme domination of possession prompted by the Guardiola model, and has largely involved pressing harder or more efficiently. If they want the ball, we have to work out better ways of winning it back. The clashes between Guardiola and Jürgen Klopp have been regular manifestations of that dynamic. Both have themselves evolved, Guardiola becoming more direct, and Klopp turning down the heavy‑metal football to something a little more possession-based.

 

That's a really good summary of the last 3-4 years of the top level tactics being used. Man City won the treble last season and many say it's because with Haaland they embraced a bit of chaos in the otherwise super organised Guardiola system. Man City also recruited a few players with serious physical presence so they could do direct at times, and also to handle teams that went direct against them a bit better. We have seen multiple times that we are prepared to mix it too. We have a preferred style, but we are getting better at making the right decisions at the right time.

 

Overall, if you compare the way we played in game 1 to the first half against Ipswich, the improvement in our team is phenomenal. How far this team can go I don't know, but IMo the ceiling is very high with Maresca in charge. It doesn't mean we will achieve it but for example with the tactical setup Farke uses at Leeds, they might get promoted but I don't see them ever getting into Europe or winning a trophy. With Maresca's system, I believe we could win a European trophy. It doesn't mean we will do it, but I feel it's possible.

 

 

[Aleksz]

That wide open pass to the winger as one of the 8’s pins and occupies the full back was on all night. Amazed Cardiff let it happen over and over again.
 

[jayfox26]

When it works we are amazing to watch and you can see how meticulous Enzo is with his tactics. At times we can be frustrating but I think this is often down to individual mistakes/decision making but you could see last night that at certain stages of the game, Cardiff just couldn't deal with us. We have got better and better as the season has gone on and even when teams try to stop us playing, we always seem to find a way through. I don't think we've hit top gear once this season and it would be a very sorry state of affairs for the team on the receiving end when we do 

[justfoxes]

On 27/12/2023 at 18:17, phoneticerror said:

Always a shame when former good players leave in this way 

Definitely it’s almost like he’s given up on us for a move back to the Prem doesn’t want to get injured by playing, he’s been disappointing for a while and after his lacklustre underperformance against Ipswich looks like Enzo’s noticed and acted accordingly by dropping him !

 

[phoneticerror]

5 minutes ago, justfoxes said:

Definitely it’s almost like he’s given up on us for a move back to the Prem doesn’t want to get injured by playing, he’s been disappointing for a while and after his lacklustre underperformance against Ipswich looks like Enzo’s noticed and acted accordingly by dropping him !

 

We’ll see, because if he’s really injured he won’t be going afcon. 

[justfoxes]

20 minutes ago, phoneticerror said:

We’ll see, because if he’s really injured he won’t be going afcon. 

No he’ll be signing for the Villa or Brentford but a mate who works at the Vile recons they’re going in for Nacho in January, so we’ll see next month if he’s telling Porkies or not 😂😉

[phoneticerror]

8 minutes ago, justfoxes said:

No he’ll be signing for the Villa or Brentford but a mate who works at the Vile recons they’re going in for Nacho in January, so we’ll see next month if he’s telling Porkies or not 😂😉

Ship him to Villa to be with the other tit who stopped showing up for us last season. Although I struggle to see why Villa would need him!

Edited 30 December 2023 by phoneticerror

[justfoxes]

6 minutes ago, phoneticerror said:

Ship him to Villa to be with the other tit who stopped showing up for us last season. Although I struggle to see why Villa would need him!

I said the same but he said he was hearing the rumours I recon he’ll go elsewhere like Brentford maybe to replace Tony !

[Aleksz]

2 hours ago, jayfox26 said:

When it works we are amazing to watch and you can see how meticulous Enzo is with his tactics. At times we can be frustrating but I think this is often down to individual mistakes/decision making but you could see last night that at certain stages of the game, Cardiff just couldn't deal with us. We have got better and better as the season has gone on and even when teams try to stop us playing, we always seem to find a way through. I don't think we've hit top gear once this season and it would be a very sorry state of affairs for the team on the receiving end when we do 

I agree with this but I think Enzo likes it that way. I get the impression he’d much rather a perfect 2-0/3-0 with total control, clean sheet and possession rather than a frantic 4-2/5-1. You always get the impression he pulls the handbrake at 2-0 - not out of being defensive, but just out of keeping control of the game.

[jayfox26]

22 minutes ago, Aleksz said:

I agree with this but I think Enzo likes it that way. I get the impression he’d much rather a perfect 2-0/3-0 with total control, clean sheet and possession rather than a frantic 4-2/5-1. You always get the impression he pulls the handbrake at 2-0 - not out of being defensive, but just out of keeping control of the game.

Yes agreed but my point is that every game we get into good positions several times but sometimes out decision making/finishing let's us down. If we had a game where it all clicked in the final 3rd, we could easily slap someone for 5 or 6

[Chrysalis]

Overall I dont have much complaints about the overall play in the last 2 games, we have just carried on with enzo ball 2.0, less counters but thats because less opportunities for it, although still the more direct play so still 2.0.

 

The main issue for me was the subs in the ipswich game and coady starting over jj or hamza.  Whilst ipswich took control late on in that game, it was perhaps the first time in the season I couldnt see an obvious reason why, it was for me just one of those games.

 

As said by jayfox if it was clicking 100% in the final 3rd we now are having enough chances we would be scoring 4+ a game.  I am guessing now thats probably what enzo is working on, as with 2.0 we are now getting good chances every game.

 

Also Lillehamring the reason Ndidi is getting picked is simple, he is more effective than the alternatives which probably is either Casedei or Yunus.  His movement is sound and does help with the forward play, think back to the Sheff Wed game when he didnt play.

Edited 30 December 2023 by Chrysalis

[BenTheFox]

Imagine what this team could look like if we had a striker that was good at holding the ball up and linking the play. That for me is the number one priority should we be promoted. 

[Lionator]

4 minutes ago, BenTheFox said:

Imagine what this team could look like if we had a striker that was good at holding the ball up and linking the play. That for me is the number one priority should we be promoted. 

The Nigerian lad at Forest would be the perfect striker for this team. 

[Beachyboy]

On 28/12/2023 at 23:41, StriderHiryu said:

There's a great paragraph in that article:
 

The past decade has largely been a reaction to the extreme domination of possession prompted by the Guardiola model, and has largely involved pressing harder or more efficiently. If they want the ball, we have to work out better ways of winning it back. The clashes between Guardiola and Jürgen Klopp have been regular manifestations of that dynamic. Both have themselves evolved, Guardiola becoming more direct, and Klopp turning down the heavy‑metal football to something a little more possession-based.

 

That's a really good summary of the last 3-4 years of the top level tactics being used. Man City won the treble last season and many say it's because with Haaland they embraced a bit of chaos in the otherwise super organised Guardiola system. Man City also recruited a few players with serious physical presence so they could do direct at times, and also to handle teams that went direct against them a bit better. We have seen multiple times that we are prepared to mix it too. We have a preferred style, but we are getting better at making the right decisions at the right time.

 

Overall, if you compare the way we played in game 1 to the first half against Ipswich, the improvement in our team is phenomenal. How far this team can go I don't know, but IMo the ceiling is very high with Maresca in charge. It doesn't mean we will achieve it but for example with the tactical setup Farke uses at Leeds, they might get promoted but I don't see them ever getting into Europe or winning a trophy. With Maresca's system, I believe we could win a European trophy. It doesn't mean we will do it, but I feel it's possible.

 

 

We were on the same level as West Ham 2 seasons ago, and they have won a European trophy. We were one of the favourites for both Europa and the Conference, Maresca has shown he can build foundations, I to believe within 5 years if Meresca stays its possible.

[StriderHiryu]

Coventry City 3 - 1 Leicester City

Haven't posted here in a while, but want to give some thoughts on the Coventry game. This was the most "Premier League" style game we've had in a while, with others being Ipswich, Southampton and Leeds. What I mean by this is in terms of the often frenetic nature of the game, the end-to-end and not always having it our own way. Shame about that second half, because I really enjoyed the first half. Not just for the scoreline, but it was a really exciting game to watch.

 

A Story of Two Halves

 

 

 

The first half was very even

• Coventry really looked to expose us on the transition, sometimes they attacked with 6(!) players, which is clever because they know we defend with 5.
  • This made for some dangerous moments. Sakamoto got the better of JJ on a few occasions. I expected JJ to play this game because Doyle is a bit slower, but fair play to the Japanese player, he was very good.
• Our playing through the press was beautiful! That's they style Enzo is trying to develop, and when we did, we looked very good. That Casadei chance was brilliant to watch. Harry Winks was fantastic in this game, I really admire him as a player so much after this season!
• In this half I thought Faes was very good. Which shows the nature of him as a player. When he's proactive, high up the pitch and can use his pace and strength, he looks great. When he has to concentrate and sit deep, he's poor.
• You have to give Coventry their dues. Not the fanbase but the team on the pitch! Their manager is a very good one. They dared to play out from the back and tried to attack us. Their gameplan was interesting because it both caused us problems and left them exposed. This is what to expect in the Premier League.
• Expect a lot of games like this next season. Most teams will attack us.
• We may not have created much in the first half, but I thought we were good. We took the sting out of the game and although it looks like Coventry made a lot of chances, I don't feel they were that threatening after the first 15 minutes.

 

 

 

Second Half

 

Obviously, the sending off changed the game:

• We parked the bus, but we had as many shots in the second half as the first. Albeit the quality of the efforts was much worse.
• Coventry scored 3 times, but the XG says we weren't getting battered.
  • We ceded possession, but largely kept the ball out of dangerous areas. I thought for 25 minutes of that half we looked OK.
  • However, as we have done to other teams, Coventry did to us. Concentrating for long periods of time and chasing the ball tires out players. Tired players lose concentration and...
  • I feel we were poor defensively and could have done better for all 3 goals. As stated above, when the team has to sit in and defend, we are weak.
• The lack of subs was an issue for me. Putting McAteer on made sense for his workrate. Taking Mavididi off? I would have taken Cannon off and put Stephy up front so we could play more on the break with his pace.
  • We went for a weird 441 shape. McAteer was often right back, we had a narrow midfield 4.
  • We kept trying to play our way out of trouble which was admirable. At times, it did almost create chances, despite having a man less. But I'm not sure it was the smart thing to do. If we had Mavididi on we could have looked for the ball over the top a bit more often, which may have made Coventry not push as high up the pitch.

 

Overall Conclusions

 

• System football has one big weakness. If something happens to disrupt the system, IE a man sending off or key injury, it falls apart.
• I would expect the team to have done some practice with ten men for situations like this, but this is a rare instance where I don't think Enzo has planned for this possibility.
  • This is a bit reckless because the way we play, I think we were due a red card or two this season. We go in for tackles hard for a reason - because winning the ball back quickly opens up spaces. We also make lots of cynical play to stop the play to get back into shape. Over the course of a 46 game season, I'd expect a few sending-offs.
• Despite the scoreline, I thought we actually played OK in this game. I think we were much worse against Sheffield Wednesday for example. But...
• Our lack of mental resilience reared it's ugly head again. We've given away last minute goals quite a few times. I feel that just like under Rodgers we are flat-track bullies. When it's all going our way we are great but not good in a mental battle. That's a worry given the big turnover of players.
• Enzo does seem to prefer defence first in times of peril. Statistically it tends to work, but I feel that us going that way is a reason for capitulation. Liverpool under Klopp always manage to make these crazy comebacks and I feel like their mentality to attack, even when sometimes it's stupid to do so gives them a level of bravery that instils mental toughness.

 

A bad day in the office. The red card... maybe a bit harsh but you can see why it was given. For a derby, you'd expect a few challenges like that, and it was no worse than the Coventry one in the box for the penalty. But still 1-0 in stoppage time at the end of the first half... no need to make that challenge there. I think we win that game 11 v 11.

 

Onto the next one!

 

 

 

 

 

Edited 13 January by StriderHiryu