Tactics Under Maresca

[DionDublinsThirdLeg]

1 hour ago, STUHILL said:

I think we rode our luck defensively and again looked vulnerable from set plays, with similar faults on show that we have seen all too long from certain players. 

I am not sure Coady alone can come in and change that. 

I hope Enzo can finally get to grips with why we are so poor at the back. I am all for a new style of football, but keeping the ball and attacking tactics will be pointless, if we concede so easily whenever there is a corner or freekick. 

Hope to see us begin to tighten up at the back over the next few games. 

 

There's a big difference between not fixing an issue that has been present for the best part of 3 years and trying to make perfection in a few weeks with a brand new system and set of players. It was disappointing to concede from a corner, but on the flip side, we were also dangerous from set pieces. The man who everyone wants to jump on, Vestergaard, allowed Doyle the room to get the header in the first half, and then nearly scored himself in the second. 

 

Rodgers never addressed the issue over multiple years. I don't think a lot noticed this, but straight after the final whistle Maresca went over to Faes and Vestergaard for a quick on the pitch debrief into what had gone wrong second half, I loved seeing that. He wasn't going around celebrating a win, he was focused on improving, straight away, asking his two experienced leaders back there about what the problem was. It actually looked as if Vestergaard took responsibility for something (Personally I thought Ndidi was most at fault for the goal). A similar thing happened as the end of 1st half when Hermansen was walking off the pitch. The GK coach had a word with him on the touchline about something, again, dealing with something straight away.

 

Now Maresca's comment about "6 players changed their mind about leaving" after his training sessions might be a load of rubbish. But with my own eyes I saw a team that despite being together for a few weeks, look better drilled in every aspect than a team which had been together for about 4 seasons last season. People will say that was because we were against Premier League opposition, but I'm talking about the cup games where we genuinely didn't look any better than League one/two sides. Someone like McAteer summed it up for me. Now I in no way think he's going to be a long term answer, but when he played in the Cup last year he looked way out of his depth to me, yet against Cov, he's been coached well enough over the last few weeks to not look out of place in this league at all. 

 

We've been a side of individuals for far too long, for the first time in years we had spells where we resembled a team.

[pmcla26]

I really like the tactics Maresca is employing. As one of the most technically gifted teams in the division, it makes sense to play in this fashion. 

 

My only concern is that when we play a side with two out and out wingers, we may need to adapt slightly. Rather than the right back coming into midfield, it may need to be the right sided centre-back (Faes), so that the right and left backs (Ricardo/JJ and Doyle) don't create gaps in the centre by being dragged two wide and exposing the central defenders. Man City do this with Walker/Akanji and Ake staying back and Stones stepping into midfield from centre-back, rather than right-back. 

 

Sometimes they line up like this: 
 

Ake Dias Stones Akanji/Walker 

 

Other times like this: 

Ake Dias Akanji Stones 

 

I think it's a variation that Maresca will look at adding as the season goes on. Probably like this for us: 

Like Sunday: 

Doyle Coady Faes Ricardo (steps into midfield)

 

Other times like this: 

Doyle Coady Faes JJ (stays back while Faes steps into midfield)

Against Coventry, it wasn't really an issue as we knew that they would play a 3-5-2 and their wing-backs wouldn't be a threat on counters, or until they progressed the ball up the pitch, which by that time we were able to return to our defensive shape. I think much of pre-season's preparation was geared towards the opening game and we'll see adaptation to the system as the season goes on. Early signs suggest that this template is a good base to work from though, and I'm enjoying watching it in pre-season and on Sunday. 

Edited 8 August 2023 by Pete52

[StriderHiryu]

47 minutes ago, Pete52 said:

I really like the tactics Maresca is employing. As one of the most technically gifted teams in the division, it makes sense to play in this fashion. 

 

My only concern is that when we play a side with two out and out wingers, we may need to adapt slightly. Rather than the right back coming into midfield, it may need to be the right sided centre-back (Faes), so that the right and left backs (Ricardo/JJ and Doyle) don't create gaps in the centre by being dragged two wide and exposing the central defenders. Man City do this with Walker/Akanji and Ake staying back and Stones stepping into midfield from centre-back, rather than right-back. 

 

 

Yeah that is something they have done a few times, especially in the Champions League. I think we should expect to see that, but maybe not until next year. Maresca says in pretty much every interview that there are many, many, many, many things to work on. So he's probably got quite the list.

[Lillehamring]

19 hours ago, Matt said:

Who on earth was frustrated, impatient or moaning about yesterday?!

 

Yeah we didn’t come out in the second half firing at the start of the half but we got back up to speed and turned it around.

 

Even I as an advocate against possession based football (the slow, laborious, type of nonsense of what we’ve seen in the last few years - which is totally different to what we saw yesterday) enjoyed and having nothing against how we played yesterday!

 

It was fast, it was forward, it was exciting and attacking!

 

There were a couple of times where I thought Hermansen could have played quicker, there are times where its needed to slow the game down but there was one instance where Mavididi was free and needed playing quickly but that is literally my only criticism - even at that it’s no biggy.

Not a sideways ball, backwards balls, notepad or silly clap in sight.

 

The juries still out whether it continues but based on yesterday, I can’t say anything against it.

You could definitely hear groaning from the home fans on the broadcast.

[Lillehamring]

17 hours ago, StriderHiryu said:

@Matt most of our supporters are still entrenched in football thinking from the past, sad to say. I hear groans and “it’s just Brendan ball all over again” multiple times from where I sat in the ground. It’s not because supporters are thick but because many of us when we were young were educated to believe football was predominantly a physical game about winning the individual battles. I’ve given the story before that as a kid I used to get told off for trying to play it on the deck to fashion opportunities in a more structured way. That’s how it was and old habits die hard. Football isn’t just about where the ball is. There is so much more going on at any point in time. 
 

As football has become so massive commercially, the stakes are so high that every aspect has become optimised and that’s why the game has completely changed. 
 

Maresca’s point is totally correct, you can’t just create good chances out of nowhere, you’ve got to move opponent’s around and find the pass when it’s there. Whenever the ball is played to Vestergaard or Coady pause the match and look at the positions all players are in. Often times they will do nothing because they are building the mental picture in their head. You could liken this to chess where a player is thinking about what move to make rather than just moving the first piece that comes to mind. 
 

The HUGE difference with Maresca is that when it’s time to go, it’s bang, bang, bang, quick, quick, quick back-to-front football. Some of the moves are amazing to see come together and they create chances. Brighton often have 65% possession plus, but yet their moves look like counter attacks. It’s because they move it so lightning quick. Our best moves had this aspect to them and it was at times exhilarating. But to the layman they won’t see this happening. That’s kind of the point of this forum topic, to help explain it but also for us all to learn together!

It's not only the past that influences the crowd, there are still loads of fans who (possibly only) watched 15/16 and believe that that style of football is how all football should be.  Even now there're still supporters  calling for a return to sitting deep and countering - because it is exciting to watch - though, as we know, hopelessly unsustainable.  A lot of fans just want goals and wins and don't care or even consider how they come about.

[Gamble92]

2 hours ago, Pete52 said:

I really like the tactics Maresca is employing. As one of the most technically gifted teams in the division, it makes sense to play in this fashion. 

 

My only concern is that when we play a side with two out and out wingers, we may need to adapt slightly. Rather than the right back coming into midfield, it may need to be the right sided centre-back (Faes), so that the right and left backs (Ricardo/JJ and Doyle) don't create gaps in the centre by being dragged two wide and exposing the central defenders. Man City do this with Walker/Akanji and Ake staying back and Stones stepping into midfield from centre-back, rather than right-back. 

 

Sometimes they line up like this: 
 

Ake Dias Stones Akanji/Walker 

 

Other times like this: 

Ake Dias Akanji Stones 

 

I think it's a variation that Maresca will look at adding as the season goes on. Probably like this for us: 

Like Sunday: 

Doyle Coady Faes Ricardo (steps into midfield)

 

Other times like this: 

Doyle Coady Faes JJ (stays back while Faes steps into midfield)

Against Coventry, it wasn't really an issue as we knew that they would play a 3-5-2 and their wing-backs wouldn't be a threat on counters, or until they progressed the ball up the pitch, which by that time we were able to return to our defensive shape. I think much of pre-season's preparation was geared towards the opening game and we'll see adaptation to the system as the season goes on. Early signs suggest that this template is a good base to work from though, and I'm enjoying watching it in pre-season and on Sunday. 

Good post

[Lillehamring]

15 hours ago, DionDublinsThirdLeg said:

The one thing that impressed me more than anything else yesterday was the Choudhury sub and then reverting Ricardo to a natural full back after 2-1. That may seem odd to some, but that sub alone tells me that Maresca is willing to adapt his principles to get success. I had initially worried that wouldn't be the case, but that sub told me if he feels he needs to, then he will make us less fluid. At the start of the second half we did have a spell that was reminiscent of last season, where it felt as though off the ball our players had no clue where they should be. But then the final 20 minutes Coventry looked very tired, which I'm hoping was because of the way we had controlled most of the game up to that point. Kind of like how a boxer invests early into the body to benefit later in the fight.

 

Were we excellent? No.

Did we look better than last season? Yes, without a doubt.

 

Compare the performance to the ones against Stockport, Gillingham or even MK Dons last season. We were fitter, sharper and looked like we had far more of a plan yesterday. In terms of our technical quality and fitness, we looked far superior to Coventry. But you could also see that they had spent much longer together under the same manager, which narrowed the gap.

For example Doyle and Mavididi have had virtually no time to gain an understanding, yet you could see they both had a level of quality above anything Coventry had in those positions. Besides Hamer, who would offer us something we don't have (Until perhaps Casadei joins), they didn't have anyone that I'd take here, and that togetherness and understanding they had defensively, is something we should get overtime. 

 

The transfer links are promising too, with rumours of us being after another couple of wingers and another number 8. Too often for the past 'x' amount of years we as fans have recognised we've been short in these areas, and Maresca appears to see this too. We've had a big squad for a few years, but with very little options for us to actually use.

The other excellent point about the Hamza sub - is that hamza has played as one of the pivots in pre-season, so not only does it mean that ricardo can focus on defending, and hamza adds some defence in the middle, we can still play the same double-pivot build up play, only instead of it being 3-2-4-1 it becomes 4-2-3-1.   Clever stuff.

[Lillehamring]

14 hours ago, Ricey said:

Every time the crowd got frustrated yesterday about slow play, we found a route through the middle of the pitch within about 5 seconds.

 

That didn’t happen last season. It would have ended up with being played across the back line and then given away.

Hopeful these Neanderthals will soon shut up once this style of play really beds in

To be honest, they shut up the moment we scored! 

[fazzyfox]

I thought we moved it much quicker, more purposefully and more often forwards than before, often moving the ball on with a first touch rather than slowing things down, particularly Winks pinging it forward early, if it comes straight back to him to find a better angle fine but at least the tempo is set and the intent is there, we haven't sucked the life out a move before it's even started. A couple of times I called "Help him out - give him an option" when a player was getting surrounded but other than that criticism and one moment where the keeper didn't seem to realise we needed a goal, I had no problem with the urgency or tempo. 

[messerschmitt]

48 minutes ago, fazzyfox said:

I thought we moved it much quicker, more purposefully and more often forwards than before, often moving the ball on with a first touch rather than slowing things down, particularly Winks pinging it forward early, if it comes straight back to him to find a better angle fine but at least the tempo is set and the intent is there, we haven't sucked the life out a move before it's even started. A couple of times I called "Help him out - give him an option" when a player was getting surrounded but other than that criticism and one moment where the keeper didn't seem to realise we needed a goal, I had no problem with the urgency or tempo. 

There was also a lot more one-touch passing, which inevitably speeds things up. It's like night and day from last season. the only thing that disappointed me was the last ten minutes when we did panic a little too much, when passes were on,  and the clearances just lead to the ball coming straight back. Hopefully, we'll sort this out with more confidence.

[brookfox]

One thing that was interesting was how often our players would make specific runs, not receive the ball and then move back to their original position. I saw it most with the wingers, they'd start very wide, they'd make a diagonal run towards the goal, the ball wouldn't be played so they'd move back wide again. It looks very fluid, but I get the impression it's very drilled and every player has a set of in-game "set pieces" they're working to. More American football than actual football! If you're the CB with the ball you either play it into midfield, out to a winger or to the wide CB, then every other player moves accordingly, type of thing.

 

Think we might need to rename him MarChessCa!

[foxfanazer]

Maybe not tactical but I'd love him to address this issue we have once we concede a goal. We completely lose our heads and look like we're gonna concede 3 or 4 more

[coolhandfox]

26 minutes ago, foxfanazer said:

Maybe not tactical but I'd love him to address this issue we have once we concede a goal. We completely lose our heads and look like we're gonna concede 3 or 4 more

I think that is a mental thing.

 

It's been eroded over a period of time, and it going to take a while to fix.

 

It a here we go again, and panic sets in.

 

Coming back on Sunday will help, it will give them the confidence they can overcome adversity.

 

[Aleksz]

Great thread. Enjoy.

[kingcarr21]

Everyone around me was complaining about the passing it round the back and slow play. I would have also normally been one of these people. Under Rodgers we were always passing it around the back deep in our own half.

 

The difference here is that we are passing it around the back whilst being camped in their half. I really liked the way we played in the first half.

 

So its only standard that as soon as we go 1-0 down the crowd start to moan. Everyone using Vestergaard as the scapegoat. Who i actually thought had a solid game.

 

Maresca's biggest challenge this season will be to convince the fans that the style is here to stay and to get behind it. I for one am looking forward to this season and seeing how we progress

[Jaspa]

[Richmondfox]

3 hours ago, Lillehamring said:

You could definitely hear groaning from the home fans on the broadcast.

Sometimes the play did deserve it.  Several times Vestagrard would stand still with the ball or just pass the ball into Winks who would pass it back as he was marked, repeat x 8 then he does his slow cut back pass to Faes who then was pressed. We looked so much better when the ball was passed forward to Faes quickly and he started the attacks off. 

 

Another time was when Praet slowed down on the halfway line when a counter was on, after that he seemed to be a different player though. 
 

The most noticeable was when Mads was slow releasing the ball and stood around like his brain had just made the Microsoft shut down noise when he could’ve punted it up pitch to Vardy. 
 

I understand the tactics and the passing around the back until they make space and then attack but it looked so easy for them to slip back into bad habits and put each other under pressure. As we saw, they can’t rely on Vestergard to cover when the opposition break the high line or win the ball when they are pissing around the

back. 

[davieG]

22 hours ago, StriderHiryu said:

@Matt most of our supporters are still entrenched in football thinking from the past, sad to say. I hear groans and “it’s just Brendan ball all over again” multiple times from where I sat in the ground. It’s not because supporters are thick but because many of us when we were young were educated to believe football was predominantly a physical game about winning the individual battles. I’ve given the story before that as a kid I used to get told off for trying to play it on the deck to fashion opportunities in a more structured way. That’s how it was and old habits die hard. Football isn’t just about where the ball is. There is so much more going on at any point in time. 
 

As football has become so massive commercially, the stakes are so high that every aspect has become optimised and that’s why the game has completely changed. 
 

Maresca’s point is totally correct, you can’t just create good chances out of nowhere, you’ve got to move opponent’s around and find the pass when it’s there. Whenever the ball is played to Vestergaard or Coady pause the match and look at the positions all players are in. Often times they will do nothing because they are building the mental picture in their head. You could liken this to chess where a player is thinking about what move to make rather than just moving the first piece that comes to mind. 
 

The HUGE difference with Maresca is that when it’s time to go, it’s bang, bang, bang, quick, quick, quick back-to-front football. Some of the moves are amazing to see come together and they create chances. Brighton often have 65% possession plus, but yet their moves look like counter attacks. It’s because they move it so lightning quick. Our best moves had this aspect to them and it was at times exhilarating. But to the layman they won’t see this happening. That’s kind of the point of this forum topic, to help explain it but also for us all to learn together!

I remember thinking during the game as we looked for the forward pass that you could never have got away with that in 60's right through to the 90s and probably beyond. You'd find yourself flying through the air after someone had just bulldozed their way through your legs taking the ball with them.

 

The 'tidying' up of the game has opened it up to a much more sophisticated intelligent game.

[Sparrowhawk]

 

 

1 hour ago, Richmondfox said:

5 hours ago, Lillehamring said:

You could definitely hear groaning from the home fans on the broadcast.

Sometimes the play did deserve it.  Several times Vestagrard would stand still with the ball or just pass the ball into Winks who would pass it back

This didn't necessarily deserve groans, as was superbly explained earlier in the thread, thusly:

 

22 hours ago, StriderHiryu said:

you can’t just create good chances out of nowhere, you’ve got to move opponent’s around and find the pass when it’s there. Whenever the ball is played to Vestergaard or Coady pause the match and look at the positions all players are in. Often times they will do nothing because they are building the mental picture in their head.

 

[filbertway]

It does make me chuckle the idea that good chances can't be created out of nowhere, someone should tell cov that because they broke all the rules of football on Sunday if that's the case  

 

[DionDublinsThirdLeg]

1 hour ago, Jaspa said:

 

I'd recommend anyone who wants to, go back and watch what happens after the final whistle and you will see the same image as above on the pitch. Maresca in conversation with Faes and Vestergaard, which i'm assuming is about our lack of control second half.

 

I like what I see there, it seemed a much more open conversation than just Rodgers telling the players what he believed they should be doing. It appears as though delegation is something that Maresca wants to happen, and I'm all for that. The best managers do this, you only have to look at Fergie and the amount of coaches and different voices he would bring in, the same with Pep, even Pearson here did that so well. There's nothing worse than an arrogant individual, who's unwilling to delegate to anyone but their 'yes men'. We knew what then ends up with.

 

I thought the criticism of Vestergaard was silly. You're always going to concede the chances we did playing that high, had that been Huth, Vidic or Terry, then they're all going to get stripped for pace by quicker players. The problems second half came more from the ease at which Coventry bypassed our press, that's where the chances came from. In fairness to Vestergaard he was actually the one who stepped in a few times to win it back, and bailed out a couple of errors by Winks. At least highlight the positives from him too, he looked a threat form set pieces and he was our best player besides Winks on the ball. There's part of me that wouldn't mind seeing Vestergaard alongside Winks in the defensive Midfield position, I think he could do a good job there in certain games, giving us someone with more pace at the back and even more physicality in the side.

[Matt]

Was talking to someone today and he was moaning about Sunday, not about us not getting it forward but more about how we were too open and allowing Coventry in, that a better team or in the PL we'd have been 3 down, maybe he doesn't realise we're not in the PL anymore, i'd go as far as saying Coventry are one of the better sides in the league (through gritted teeth).

 

I thought it was quite a nice balance on Sunday, we were going forward, back to front at rapid speed (compared to last season), with that you're gonna be caught on occasions but i'd much rather prefer that compared to last season when we went from side to side not getting out our half only to make a mistake and allowing the opposition in.

 

Atleast if you get caught the way we played on Sunday its at the other end of the pitch and they have to counter you - that's where we need faster defenders to get back, but last season we were getting caught in our own half, usually pretty much in front of our own 18 yard box and there was no time to recover.

 

He didn't have much of a problem with how we played last season though    

[Lillehamring]

2 hours ago, Richmondfox said:

Sometimes the play did deserve it.  Several times Vestagrard would stand still with the ball or just pass the ball into Winks who would pass it back as he was marked, repeat x 8 then he does his slow cut back pass to Faes who then was pressed. We looked so much better when the ball was passed forward to Faes quickly and he started the attacks off. 

 

Another time was when Praet slowed down on the halfway line when a counter was on, after that he seemed to be a different player though. 
 

The most noticeable was when Mads was slow releasing the ball and stood around like his brain had just made the Microsoft shut down noise when he could’ve punted it up pitch to Vardy. 
 

I understand the tactics and the passing around the back until they make space and then attack but it looked so easy for them to slip back into bad habits and put each other under pressure. As we saw, they can’t rely on Vestergard to cover when the opposition break the high line or win the ball when they are pissing around the

back. 

The standing on the ball is part of the overall tactic and shouldn't be perceived as slowing the game down - the idea being to lure in the attackers - Cov were clearly aware of this and didn't bite making the passes to the pivots harder to achieve.  I think my bigger criticism of vestergaard was that when he did get the chance of playing the ball to RP/HW he seemed a bit nervous and played it to the side instead. 

 

It's no surprise that the fans don't understand this - but hopefully they'll get used to it.

Edited 8 August 2023 by Lillehamring

[Lillehamring]

44 minutes ago, DionDublinsThirdLeg said:

 

I'd recommend anyone who wants to, go back and watch what happens after the final whistle and you will see the same image as above on the pitch. Maresca in conversation with Faes and Vestergaard, which i'm assuming is about our lack of control second half.

 

I like what I see there, it seemed a much more open conversation than just Rodgers telling the players what he believed they should be doing. It appears as though delegation is something that Maresca wants to happen, and I'm all for that. The best managers do this, you only have to look at Fergie and the amount of coaches and different voices he would bring in, the same with Pep, even Pearson here did that so well. There's nothing worse than an arrogant individual, who's unwilling to delegate to anyone but their 'yes men'. We knew what then ends up with.

 

I thought the criticism of Vestergaard was silly. You're always going to concede the chances we did playing that high, had that been Huth, Vidic or Terry, then they're all going to get stripped for pace by quicker players. The problems second half came more from the ease at which Coventry bypassed our press, that's where the chances came from. In fairness to Vestergaard he was actually the one who stepped in a few times to win it back, and bailed out a couple of errors by Winks. At least highlight the positives from him too, he looked a threat form set pieces and he was our best player besides Winks on the ball. There's part of me that wouldn't mind seeing Vestergaard alongside Winks in the defensive Midfield position, I think he could do a good job there in certain games, giving us someone with more pace at the back and even more physicality in the side.

More than that, we saw in the liverpool friendly that, if you can crack the high line, even players like VVD and TAA will be caught out.

[Plastik Man]

2 hours ago, Richmondfox said:

Sometimes the play did deserve it.  Several times Vestagrard would stand still with the ball or just pass the ball into Winks who would pass it back as he was marked, repeat x 8 then he does his slow cut back pass to Faes who then was pressed. We looked so much better when the ball was passed forward to Faes quickly and he started the attacks off. 

 

Another time was when Praet slowed down on the halfway line when a counter was on, after that he seemed to be a different player though. 
 

The most noticeable was when Mads was slow releasing the ball and stood around like his brain had just made the Microsoft shut down noise when he could’ve punted it up pitch to Vardy. 
 

I understand the tactics and the passing around the back until they make space and then attack but it looked so easy for them to slip back into bad habits and put each other under pressure. As we saw, they can’t rely on Vestergard to cover when the opposition break the high line or win the ball when they are pissing around the

back. 

It's interesting regarding the repeat passing until space opens up.

 

I did notice in one phase during the first half that the first vertical pass forward to Ricardo came straight back to Vestergaard but then a couple of seconds later he played the same ball back to Ricardo, who without really having to move, found his marker has just dropped off a yard or so, enabling him to turn and set up an attack.

 

I guess the point being that the defending team has to maintain concentration or our midfield can take advantage of any lax moment. With the passing abilities of Winks, etc in a formation which creates lots of passing triangles we see the ball moved forward and chances created at speed.