Tactics Under Maresca

[Lillehamring]

11 minutes ago, Matt said:

Was talking to someone today and he was moaning about Sunday, not about us not getting it forward but more about how we were too open and allowing Coventry in, that a better team or in the PL we'd have been 3 down, maybe he doesn't realise we're not in the PL anymore, i'd go as far as saying Coventry are one of the better sides in the league (through gritted teeth).

 

I thought it was quite a nice balance on Sunday, we were going forward, back to front at rapid speed (compared to last season), with that you're gonna be caught on occasions but i'd much rather prefer that compared to last season when we went from side to side not getting out our half only to make a mistake and allowing the opposition in.

 

Atleast if you get caught the way we played on Sunday its at the other end of the pitch and they have to counter you - that's where we need faster defenders to get back, but last season we were getting caught in our own half, usually pretty much in front of our own 18 yard box and there was no time to recover.

 

He didn't have much of a problem with how we played last season though    

The openness seems to be a calculated risk of playing a high line but equally shouldn't happen as often as it did - one of the key fundamentals EM has talked about is ball recovery  -in the first hal we were superb at this, in the second half we seemed to forget about it - thus leaving ourselves exposed - which is particularly bad against a good counterattacking side.  BUt i think we can expect the standard of ball recovery to improve as it becomes more ingrained in the player's mentality.

[Jaspa]

Another interesting photo from today's OS release, social groups formed for rondos -

 

[Wasyls Pec Deck]

13 minutes ago, Jaspa said:

Another interesting photo from today's OS release, social groups formed for rondos -

 

In simple terms?

[lfu]

1 hour ago, Wasyls Pec Deck said:

In simple terms?

two groups of 7 and one group of 8 players passing the ball about in a circle while one of them plays piggy in the middle

 

Praet, Castagne, Faes, Ndidi (who played in Belgium so makes sense), Ricardo, Vestergaard, Kelechi and JJ are on the left rondo

Souttar, Thomas, KDH, Winks, Albrighton, Hamza and Vardy in the middle rondo

Maividi, Wanya, McAteer, Doyle, Soumaré, Daka and Ben Nelson on the right rondo

 

I assume Coady will be in the middle one when he's back fit, maybe Kristiansen if he stays will go to the left rondo and JJ to the right rondo?

Edited 8 August 2023 by lfu
forgot to include Faes in the first group lol

[Ric Flair]

1 hour ago, Matt said:

Was talking to someone today and he was moaning about Sunday, not about us not getting it forward but more about how we were too open and allowing Coventry in, that a better team or in the PL we'd have been 3 down, maybe he doesn't realise we're not in the PL anymore, i'd go as far as saying Coventry are one of the better sides in the league (through gritted teeth).

 

I thought it was quite a nice balance on Sunday, we were going forward, back to front at rapid speed (compared to last season), with that you're gonna be caught on occasions but i'd much rather prefer that compared to last season when we went from side to side not getting out our half only to make a mistake and allowing the opposition in.

 

Atleast if you get caught the way we played on Sunday its at the other end of the pitch and they have to counter you - that's where we need faster defenders to get back, but last season we were getting caught in our own half, usually pretty much in front of our own 18 yard box and there was no time to recover.

 

He didn't have much of a problem with how we played last season though    

Quite simply get/play better suited players to this system (quicker CB's, a better 8, better RW and possibly striker) and we'll be some force.

 

That back line is an unnecessary risk.

[shen]

52 minutes ago, lfu said:

two groups of 7 and one group of 8 players passing the ball about in a circle while one of them plays piggy in the middle

 

Praet, Castagne, Ndidi (who played in Belgium so makes sense), Ricardo, Vestergaard, Kelechi and JJ are on the left rondo

Souttar, Thomas, KDH, Winks, Albrighton, Hamza and Vardy in the middle rondo

Maividi, Wanya, McAteer, Doyle, Soumaré, Daka and Ben Nelson on the right rondo

 

I assume Coady will be in the middle one when he's back fit, maybe Kristiansen if he stays will go to the left rondo and JJ to the right rondo?

Ooo British friends 

[ts_1010]

It looks like they have formed mini teams. 2 defenders one striker and the rest are midfielders.

[RedSoxUK]

1 hour ago, lfu said:

two groups of 7 and one group of 8 players passing the ball about in a circle while one of them plays piggy in the middle

 

Praet, Castagne, Faes, Ndidi (who played in Belgium so makes sense), Ricardo, Vestergaard, Kelechi and JJ are on the left rondo

Souttar, Thomas, KDH, Winks, Albrighton, Hamza and Vardy in the middle rondo

Maividi, Wanya, McAteer, Doyle, Soumaré, Daka and Ben Nelson on the right rondo

 

I assume Coady will be in the middle one when he's back fit, maybe Kristiansen if he stays will go to the left rondo and JJ to the right rondo?

Pretty sure that's just the friendship groups and not some Maresca masterclass you know.

[StriderHiryu]

2 hours ago, DionDublinsThirdLeg said:

 

 

I thought the criticism of Vestergaard was silly. You're always going to concede the chances we did playing that high, had that been Huth, Vidic or Terry, then they're all going to get stripped for pace by quicker players. The problems second half came more from the ease at which Coventry bypassed our press, that's where the chances came from. In fairness to Vestergaard he was actually the one who stepped in a few times to win it back, and bailed out a couple of errors by Winks. At least highlight the positives from him too, he looked a threat form set pieces and he was our best player besides Winks on the ball. There's part of me that wouldn't mind seeing Vestergaard alongside Winks in the defensive Midfield position, I think he could do a good job there in certain games, giving us someone with more pace at the back and even more physicality in the side.

That was my opinion initially too, but after watching the full match back, I think there are solid grounds for criticism. Very specifically for the Haji Wright chance it might have been possible to make a challenge and / or bring him down and take the yellow. Not only does he get beaten to the ball but he slows down, so after Hermansen makes a fantastic save, he's not there busting a gut to stop the second attempt from Eccles going in either. He also lost the initial header from Coventry too, and this is from someone who is 6"7. Compare his defensive work to Doyle who does bust a gut and tries to make a challenge as a direct comparison of good vs bad play.

 

 

 

Faes was very typically himself in the sense that he got his positioning wrong multiple times and after we went behind got his trademark David Luiz rush of blood to the head. I don't think either player can score more than 6/10 and that's being a little kind to both.

 

 

[DionDublinsThirdLeg]

7 minutes ago, StriderHiryu said:

That was my opinion initially too, but after watching the full match back, I think there are solid grounds for criticism. Very specifically for the Haji Wright chance it might have been possible to make a challenge and / or bring him down and take the yellow. Not only does he get beaten to the ball but he slows down, so after Hermansen makes a fantastic save, he's not there busting a gut to stop the second attempt from Eccles going in either. He also lost the initial header from Coventry too, and this is from someone who is 6"7. Compare his defensive work to Doyle who does bust a gut and tries to make a challenge as a direct comparison of good vs bad play.

 

 

 

Faes was very typically himself in the sense that he got his positioning wrong multiple times and after we went behind got his trademark David Luiz rush of blood to the head. I don't think either player can score more than 6/10 and that's being a little kind to both.

 

 

 

I seem to recall Adama Traore and Bryan Mbuemo doing very similar things against Man City. There are always going to be times when a side will break through your defence when playing such a high line. I think for me the most disappointing thing there is the big gap between our midfield and defence. Both Faes and Vestergaard don't 'lose headers' there, quite rightly they're goal side of their men giving themselves extra space to cover the ball in behind. If anything Doyle is actually too wide, considering there's no threat coming from down that side. 

 

I'm just happy to see us trying to press though. Last season we never won the ball back until the opposition had a shot at our goal, it's already clear to see we're better coached. I'm not suggesting Vestergaard is the long term answer, but you don't have a career he has had if you're completely inept. He has been at two clubs with terrible coaching during his time in England, Maresca thinks he's the best we have for what he wants until Coady is back, so let's see if it works. He did more good than bad against Coventry, as did everyone, except possibly for Vardy.

 

[STUHILL]

15 minutes ago, StriderHiryu said:

That was my opinion initially too, but after watching the full match back, I think there are solid grounds for criticism. Very specifically for the Haji Wright chance it might have been possible to make a challenge and / or bring him down and take the yellow. Not only does he get beaten to the ball but he slows down, so after Hermansen makes a fantastic save, he's not there busting a gut to stop the second attempt from Eccles going in either. He also lost the initial header from Coventry too, and this is from someone who is 6"7. Compare his defensive work to Doyle who does bust a gut and tries to make a challenge as a direct comparison of good vs bad play.

 

 

 

Faes was very typically himself in the sense that he got his positioning wrong multiple times and after we went behind got his trademark David Luiz rush of blood to the head. I don't think either player can score more than 6/10 and that's being a little kind to both.

 

 

I don't think we can afford to have a Faes and a Vestergaard in our back 4. Together, they are too much of a liability. I think alongside Coady, either one of them would be sufficient at this level. Does make me think, we need another CB to join before the window ends, as seems like there would be far too much relying on Coady staying fit. 

[StriderHiryu]

7 minutes ago, DionDublinsThirdLeg said:

 

I'm just happy to see us trying to press though. Last season we never won the ball back until the opposition had a shot at our goal, it's already clear to see we're better coached. I'm not suggesting Vestergaard is the long term answer, but you don't have a career he has had if you're completely inept. He has been at two clubs with terrible coaching during his time in England, Maresca thinks he's the best we have for what he wants until Coady is back, so let's see if it works. He did more good than bad against Coventry, as did everyone, except possibly for Vardy.

 

Yes I agree with this. I would also say that this is a brand new system and he's playing with a lot of players in a competitive match for the first time. It's a pretty radical system too so I think all players deserve a bit of cooling off. It will be after 5 or so games I might make more sweeping judgements.

 

2 minutes ago, STUHILL said:

I don't think we can afford to have a Faes and a Vestergaard in our back 4. Together, they are too much of a liability. I think alongside Coady, either one of them would be sufficient at this level. Does make me think, we need another CB to join before the window ends, as seems like there would be far too much relying on Coady staying fit. 

I would agree. Of the defenders we have, only Doyle looks like a player that would be OK in the Premier League, despite never having played in it, which also adds weight to the argument. But we've got a lot of CBs at the club now and we need to give the system time to bed in. So I'd suggest there are other positions that are in more dire need that CB.

 

Wingers are where are well short for me. Mavididi was making his debut and despite being quiet for a lot of it, he showed in just a few patches just what a difference a good wide player makes. Put his equivalent on the other side and teams are going to be dragged around this way and that. We need cover for those positions too, so really I feel like we need at least 2 wingers, and maybe even 3. But I like the idea of giving McAteer and Marcal-Madivuda some game time and a chance to stake their claim. Imagine if Kasey McAteer buries that chance at the end of the first half? It would be a very different game and his confidence would be buzzing.

[coolhandfox]

28 minutes ago, StriderHiryu said:

That was my opinion initially too, but after watching the full match back, I think there are solid grounds for criticism. Very specifically for the Haji Wright chance it might have been possible to make a challenge and / or bring him down and take the yellow. Not only does he get beaten to the ball but he slows down, so after Hermansen makes a fantastic save, he's not there busting a gut to stop the second attempt from Eccles going in either. He also lost the initial header from Coventry too, and this is from someone who is 6"7. Compare his defensive work to Doyle who does bust a gut and tries to make a challenge as a direct comparison of good vs bad play.

 

 

 

Faes was very typically himself in the sense that he got his positioning wrong multiple times and after we went behind got his trademark David Luiz rush of blood to the head. I don't think either player can score more than 6/10 and that's being a little kind to both.

 

 

Faes lack of positional discipline combine with Vestergaard lack of recover speed is a recipe for trouble.

 

Vestergaard can't be put into a foot race with anyone.

[Wasyls Pec Deck]

1 hour ago, coolhandfox said:

Faes lack of positional discipline combine with Vestergaard lack of recover speed is a recipe for trouble.

 

Vestergaard can't be put into a foot race with anyone.

I remember in one of the European games possibly against Randers or in Warsaw when the commentator said it looked like Vestergaard was running* thought treacle  Blokes a liability. 

Edit: * sorry I believe the term used was “wading”

Edited 8 August 2023 by Wasyls Pec Deck

[shen]

36 minutes ago, coolhandfox said:

Faes lack of positional discipline combine with Vestergaard lack of recover speed is a recipe for trouble.

 

Vestergaard can't be put into a foot race with anyone.

Vestergaard is positionally just as bad. Faes needs to win his duels if he's going to be the stopper or he has to drop off and cover, much like he did first half with some frankly outstanding recoveries. 

Despite my wish to see Vestergaard be an asset, I struggle to understand that Souttar is a worse option.

[Chrysalis]

I am not going to sugar coat, so I might come across as anti.

 

My view is we could have easily lost the game by 3 or 4 goals before the 70 minute mark.  But that of course didnt happen and we went on to win, it was good to see we hadnt conceded the game mentally.

 

Now in the first half what I perhaps liked the best is we were doing something I havent seen us do before, win the ball back quickly up the pitch.  When doing this it raised our confidence and the passing improved, however a problem in the first half was that we never put Coventry in danger of conceding aside from one chance, there was that same lack of ability to rapidly get the ball in the opponents box.

 

In the second half we started badly and things got chaotic for a while, that spell they could have put the game to bed, but they didnt, some substitutions were made by both sides, and ours were the better one's (also nice to see), we then had a reasonable spell where some quality came through and it got us the two goals to win the match, after that it became a bit end to end, but luckily we held out.

 

I can see this potentially working but is some missing jigsaw pieces, we definitely need to improve in forward play, the ease teams can cut through us still needs work, as well as defensive set pieces, some of this will be via training sessions, others will be what I think is some better quality acquisitions.  Right attacking side and perhaps a striker.

 

I do think Nacho should be our main striker with current personnel.  KDH has the potential to become a consistent scorer as well.  I had seen this in him in the EPL, but now we have a manager who looks like he wants to exploit it.

 

I am sympathetic and accept there is issues, as the club wasted two valuable weeks on a holiday in Thailand.

Edited 9 August 2023 by Chrysalis

[DionDublinsThirdLeg]

7 hours ago, shen said:

Vestergaard is positionally just as bad. Faes needs to win his duels if he's going to be the stopper or he has to drop off and cover, much like he did first half with some frankly outstanding recoveries. 

Despite my wish to see Vestergaard be an asset, I struggle to understand that Souttar is a worse option.

 

He's too timid. Last season he just looked like he was overawed by it all. I think it's pretty clear that Maresca values leadership, and the problem Souttar has is that he just doesn't come across as someone who will communicate back there. For as flawed as Vestergaard appears, he had virtually no impact on our relegation, he never played....In fact he's barely played for us full stop. Let's not pretend that Souttar didn't show huge flaws when playing last year. Positionally he was responsible for a few goals, and struggled with the offside trap massively. 

 

Let's see what Maresca does before we write players off. We haven't been coached properly as a side in years. We've seen from Pep how if players are willing to adapt, they can improve drastically. The difference in Stones and Rodri for example, from when they first arrived until now is immense.

 

Granit Xhaka....There's a great example of what coaching can do. A player hated by the fans, to one who the fans are now disappointed he has gone.

[Sparrowhawk]

1 hour ago, Chrysalis said:

My view is we could have easily lost the game by 3 or 4 goals before the 70 minute mark

True. But then we could also easily (probably should) have been one up at half time.

 

1 hour ago, DionDublinsThirdLeg said:

9 hours ago, shen said:

I struggle to understand that Souttar is a worse option.

 

He's too timid. Last season he just looked like he was overawed by it all. I think it's pretty clear that Maresca values leadership, and the problem Souttar has is that he just doesn't come across as someone who will communicate back there

This could well be the reason. Also, whatever the valid criticisms that can be levelled at Faes and Vestergaard, they're both happy to receive the ball even in little space, and decent at passing it. I haven't really seen enough of Souttar to judge, but is he either of those things?

[Sparrowhawk]

1 hour ago, Chrysalis said:

I am sympathetic and accept there is issues, as the club wasted two valuable weeks on a holiday in Thailand.

I'd be surprised if they didn't do quite a lot of training while they were there. Nobody on Sunday looked badly sunburned or had a beer belly, which is how people come back from holidays. (Or is that just me?)

[Leeds Fox]

12 hours ago, Jaspa said:

Another interesting photo from today's OS release, social groups formed for rondos -

 

Are you assuming they put themselves into the rondo groups or do you know this? 

[OntarioFox]

12 hours ago, Jaspa said:

Another interesting photo from today's OS release, social groups formed for rondos -

 

ooooh, belgian friends

[Batfink77]

Not tactics so much, but the approach to building a proper team environment at every level of our club.  Pre match Sunday I watched as Willy Caballero went over to the ball boys, shook each of them by the hand and then got them all in a huddle and gave them their own team talk. Not seen any coaching staff do that before. Nice touch.

[Guest Col city fan]

Getting central midfielders bursting forward is no bad thing.

But Wilf is not that player. 
I suspect it’s out of necessity until we sign someone who IS right for that job.

The lad from Chelsea would fit that bill beautifully.

If you don’t play Ndidi as a holding midfielder, you don’t play him.

Although tbh at present, I’d even start Soumare over Ndidi.

[Sparrowhawk]

41 minutes ago, Col city fan said:

If you don’t play Ndidi as a holding midfielder, you don’t play him.

I still reckon that from what I saw him doing on Sunday, that's exactly what he was - just way further up the pitch than normal.

 

It's either an excitingly imaginative tactical move or just making the most of what he has until some more players come in.

 

Ideally I suppose you'd want someone playing there who can break up opposition moves before they start and is good on the ball and is a really good passer and is a good finisher. A player who has all the best bits of both Kante and Maddison. Given that players like that aren't exactly ten a penny, he's clearly prioritising the disruption he reckons Ndidi can bring over the passing and/or finishing that anyone else we have can bring. Or at least he did v Cov. Maybe he'll make different choices for other games or if more new players arrive.

 

I for one am looking forward to finding out.

 

[Stadt]

I'm hoping as Maresca gains more experience he finds more LCFC specific solutions. It's not as though it's a 1:1 translation of Man City's system but our backline composition is very different. Souttar is better in the air and covers ground faster than Vestergaard, it's not as if the latter's passing is mesmeric either. Souttar is pretty comfortable with the ball.