Tactics Under Maresca

[Lillehamring]

On 12/08/2023 at 08:32, richard123 said:

Just watched his latest press conference. You can tell that this guy lives and breathes football. You can already see from some comments that he may be young to management but is far more clued up with the modern game than most more experienced managers. 

 

Those that get frustrated when the ball goes back. Listen to his press conference when he talks about attacking and finding spaces, this will be to produce chances where we have a good chance to score. If we attack and there is 11 men behind the ball, he wants it brough back, invite the opposition to press and then find the solution to score, find the spaces. 

 

I really like Enzo. Already seems a class act. Also has some balls. He gives the impression of 'it's my decision' and he has a clear plan. Won't all be roses this first half of the season but when it clicks we will be a very good team and we should bounce straight back up. Also I think he will keep us up when that happens.

 

I said it before but relegation was the best thing that could happen to us. We needed a complete team and management reset and to build a new identity, and some time out of the spotlight to do this.

 

 

Well, at least that's two of us now!

[fuchsntf]

1 hour ago, StriderHiryu said:

You see it with the other chance he had too, his composure is lacking, and it's something we've seen from him throughout his time here.

 

It might start clicking for him though over time as I would imagine he's never played in a setup where he's consistently getting as many chances as this. Once he gets a bit more confidence as some of these go in, he might start flying. Chuba Akpom for Boro last season went from rarely being a goal threat to scoring over 20 goals with a position change and getting more opportunities. So you never know.

Yes but Chuba Akpom is destined to score goals..

[Lillehamring]

On 12/08/2023 at 18:16, Dames said:

The sole responsibility of getting players out of the door lies with Rudkin ans not the players in question. You play games with Rudkin and the only one that loses is the club. Rodgers tried the same thing last season and ended up having to bring players back in from the cold after treating them a similar way and it didn’t work out. We pay these guys big wages, at least keep them involved and in the shop window. 

1. Not entirely - we know at least vestergaard has turned down fulham, somewhere in europe and i think a saudi team.  They have contracts, if no one wants to buy them, they're under no obligation to sign a new loan contract.

2. Keeping them involved back fired last season with players like youri clearly not committed.  It also denies players that are here for the long term opportunity to play.

 

For these over paid, unwanted players it is very much a buyers' market.

[Lillehamring]

On 12/08/2023 at 18:18, foxfanazer said:

Still a few teething problems but we've at the very least stopped haemorrhaging goals. We still concede a lot of chances but all in all we look more secure. 

 

 

We need to get smarter in the final third as we squander some really easy chances to lay it off to others for tap ins. 

 

 

I'm fully on board though I have to say

Once the players are not having to think about the tactics and what they're meant to be doing they'll start playing more naturally; right now, everyone is still learning and that takes away fluidity.

[Lillehamring]

On 12/08/2023 at 18:49, LinekersLugs said:

I’m not going to defend him and in essence I agree 

 

but Matt it’s a shocking huddersfield we were playing and we were toothless and a little boring to watch with many miss places 

 

and last weekend he was in a Celtic dug out that team had 18 shots and 12 on target 🤷‍♂️🤷‍♂️🤷‍♂️

 

Enzo needs backing and he needs quality players who can pass … our passing for a number of years has been awful,

mainly because our recruitment has been dire 

That's not true - since colin came in they actually have a decent record especially at home (their last 8 home games last season under him they won 4 and drew 3), and tactically they were much better than coventry.

[Lillehamring]

On 12/08/2023 at 19:57, inckley fox said:

To be honest, same as in the Cov game, I thought the patient build-up tactics were going more and more out of the window as the match progressed, and it was a more positive and direct approach which turned things in our favour. I've seen little evidence so far that the 300-passes-in-order-to-put-our-defence-under-pressure approach is reaping dividends.

 

Having vastly superior personnel to our opponents, it seems that the key to victory has so far not been what some call Marescaball, but rather just getting to a stage in the match where you allow players with pedigree to do what they need to do. That's not to say that his grand plan won't end up working, nor that Maresca doesn't deserve a lot of credit for affording them that flexibility. But we'll see how practical his approach is over the coming weeks and months, especially as we (hopefully) bring in the sort of creative player that he clearly requires.

But you have, you just don't realise it!  Without that passing and standing on the ball, you don't create the space to play the direct balls into.

 

To use a baseballing analogy - a pitcher will throw balls inside to a batter to then allow him to throw one outside, the batter panics and swings at something he shouldn't - the same happens here, we focus all the play in the middle and play slow, almost pedestrian, and then - bam - play the direct ball over the top,

[Bluearmyfox28]

9 hours ago, Aleksz said:

Great moves in this clip. My word that pass to break lines from Vestergaard in the first one. 

Key part to all of these plays was the movement from Praet in behind.

[Chrysalis]

7 hours ago, HighPeakFox said:

I have a question - I apologise if it comes over as provocative, and maybe nobody really knows the answer.

 

Accepting those that understand the difference between BRBall and EnzoBall know much more than I do, how much of the change in attitude amongst us is:-

 

a) Definitely the football

b) Thank f**k it's not BR, or

c) A mixture of both

 

Please don't get me wrong, I agree that BR had to go, and some time before he actually did. I'm just interested how big the difference actually is, and also how much more we can get away with sub-par performances at this level. I reiterate that I am no student of tactics, but I suspect I am more patient than most.

I will try to explain the best I can, granted Rodgers ball wasn't the same for his entire time with us, it gradually over his reign ended up with what we was calling Rodgers ball.

 

For me there is two key differences.

 

1 - We are showing signs of urgency during parts of games on winning the ball back quickly even when its right up the pitch, in the 10 min spell before we scored in the last game, in the few moments the opponent had the ball we would have it back within a few seconds.  This is what I was calling out for under the latter part of Rodgers reign as I feel if playing a possession based passing game this has to be part of it.  We not doing it consistently yet but can see what Enzo is trying to achieve.

 

2 - When we have the ball instead of just slow laboured passing between CB's right in front of our keeper most of the time, we are doing triangles and more forward passing movements.  Also more of the passes are one touch with faster pace.  In addition some forward movement from our CB's with the ball as well.

 

I dont know what made you think it was some people just having it in for Rodgers.  The problems under him became very clear and there is noticeable differences already even though they are both pass the ball around managers.

 

However I dont think Enzo has cracked the code yet in the final 3rd, similar struggles there, however at the same time he doesnt have Barnes at his disposal or Maddison, we need some more quality there.

 

I also accept we in a lower league, which obviously helps, but I hope my two points explain the football differences.

Edited 13 August 2023 by Chrysalis

[Chrysalis]

2 hours ago, StriderHiryu said:

 

Longer clip of the Praet chance, as I missed the initial build up because the extended highlights weren't available.

 

What a beautiful move! The way we pull the opposition out of possession to make space in behind is really great! Praet finishes badly, but he's really good in the build up for the move. Ricardo has been superb since he was put in this position, we already knew he was a good player, but he deserves major credit, because this is a Tielemans-esque sliding pass, the weight on it is perfect.

 

 

 

 

Shame no one has many of these clips for the play before the goal, I was actually in partial shock of how good it was watching the play before we scored, how we were so confident, and winning it back immediately.

[blaaklint]

1 hour ago, BenTheFox said:

Praet taking on the shot that early is so frustrating. He has to draw the goalkeeper. The move is lovely though.

It wouldn't surprise me if that's the first time in his career he's ever been put through truly 1-on-1 with the keeper. I think the problem was more his first touch, he needed to push it further ahead of himself. I think he should have probably also hit it to the keepers over side. Having said all that, he should learn from this.

 

I think for the most part, he had a decent game. Sometimes gets bullied a little bit but his off the ball movement is exemplary.

[Lionator]

10 minutes ago, blaaklint said:

It wouldn't surprise me if that's the first time in his career he's ever been put through truly 1-on-1 with the keeper. I think the problem was more his first touch, he needed to push it further ahead of himself. I think he should have probably also hit it to the keepers over side. Having said all that, he should learn from this.

 

I think for the most part, he had a decent game. Sometimes gets bullied a little bit but his off the ball movement is exemplary.

Nope he did it against Villa last season and finished wonderfully.

[HighPeakFox]

29 minutes ago, Chrysalis said:

I dont know what made you think it was some people just having it in for Rodgers.  The problems under him became very clear and there is noticeable differences already even though they are both pass the ball around managers.

Thank you. I think some people hated him from the off, and saw all the good early stuff as an aberration.

[Lillehamring]

22 hours ago, inckley fox said:

Some very interesting points, but I have to disagree about Kelechi. I thought he was wasteful, and Huddersfield enjoyed getting the better of him. When Vardy came on we went a bit more direct once or twice and he seemed to have the legs to get in behind. He made his presence felt. Their high press fell apart and we walked it thereafter. I honestly don't think Iheanacho worried them too much. His decision-making is substandard and he was rightly taken off.

Agree - and whilst his touch is better than vardy's it's still rubbish.  Oddly, i think Maresca hasn't judged the game/strikers correctly - in hindsight, vardy would have benefit against the two higher pressing opponents (burton & huddersfield) whilst nacho would have bee better against the deep set coventry tactics.

 

Still, early days, most of the opposition are relatively unknown quantities at this stage of the season.

 

I still feel that we are lacking a striker that fits the system perfectly, but i guess we're stuck with what we have (for now).

[Chrysalis]

Just now, HighPeakFox said:

Thank you. I think some people hated him from the off, and saw all the good early stuff as an aberration.

I loved him at the start, we played some consistently decent stuff all the way up until those horrid two games man city and liverpool back to back, which seemed to affect him, although he did still manage to get respectful points per game not playing as well for a season after that before we really fell off.

[Lillehamring]

4 hours ago, Jimmy said:

I'd like to see him start Ricardo as the nominal left back with Justin at right back so we end up with a back 3 of Justin Faes and Doyle until Coady is back, get some pace into the back line, Ricardo's role doesn't really matter which side he starts on

Strange - clearly the faes/vestergaard/doyle formula is starting to set - whilst the laternative  has faes who isn't as sure on the ball as vestergaard, and justin who isn't as good as faes taking the ball forward, nevermind being a far inferior defender.

No doubt when coady comes back it'll be faes/coady/doyle - assuming that vesty hasn't advanced to the point where he's undroppable, which is less unbelievable that it was a just a few weeks ago.

 

I don't see justin as being anything other than cover for players who are better than him defensively (faes/doyle), as the playmaker (vestergaard/coady), whilst maresca clearly doesn't see him as an inverting full back.

[blaaklint]

17 minutes ago, Lionator said:

Nope he did it against Villa last season and finished wonderfully.

I'd completely forgotten about that tbh. I think that goal was really awful decision-making from Martinez, if he stays deeper then its a far harder chance. Maybe technically a 1v1 but a very different kind of chance.

[DionDublinsThirdLeg]

7 hours ago, HighPeakFox said:

I have a question - I apologise if it comes over as provocative, and maybe nobody really knows the answer.

 

Accepting those that understand the difference between BRBall and EnzoBall know much more than I do, how much of the change in attitude amongst us is:-

 

a) Definitely the football

b) Thank f**k it's not BR, or

c) A mixture of both

 

Please don't get me wrong, I agree that BR had to go, and some time before he actually did. I'm just interested how big the difference actually is, and also how much more we can get away with sub-par performances at this level. I reiterate that I am no student of tactics, but I suspect I am more patient than most.

 

Well Enzo has a much weaker squad than Rodgers had, whilst also clearly not having the players he wants, and is playing opposition in Coventry and Huddersfield who're better than our cup opponents last season, where performances were worse than this. My major worry right now is the lack of backing he is getting. He wants at least 4 new players, and has made it clear to the Club which players he's willing to get rid of to make that happen. There's no excuses to not get at least 2 of those players in before Cardiff. We've got Cardiff and Hull at home, with Rotherham away in between, an excellent opportunity to get 5 wins from 5 before two of our toughest games away at Southampton and Norwich. I don't want us to drop points in any of the next 3 because we lack the pace and creativity to score against those sides, that could be offered by new signings. 

[inckley fox]

1 hour ago, Lillehamring said:

But you have, you just don't realise it!  Without that passing and standing on the ball, you don't create the space to play the direct balls into.

 

To use a baseballing analogy - a pitcher will throw balls inside to a batter to then allow him to throw one outside, the batter panics and swings at something he shouldn't - the same happens here, we focus all the play in the middle and play slow, almost pedestrian, and then - bam - play the direct ball over the top,

I understand how it works when it works (if that makes sense), I just think we're killing games off when we reach a stage at which we lose a little bit of patience, and inject some urgency. I appreciate that we've worn sides down by the 60th minute as a result of playing the way we have, and that there are some fine examples of pulling defences all over the place in order to make the opening. I'm just not sure that we've reached the point (yet) where that's the most critical of factors in us taking control of games. I wouldn't expect it to be after a mere two league games either!

[Lionator]

I don’t know if anyone has already mentioned this but in this system, prime Andy King would literally score 50 championship goals. He’d have buried that Praet chance. 

Edited 13 August 2023 by Lionator

[Stadt]

Strange that Iheanacho was asked to pin their CBs rather than drop like he normally does. Far better when when the CMs go beyond him 

[Arriba Los Zorros]

39 minutes ago, Lionator said:

I don’t know if anyone has already mentioned this but in this system, prime Andy King would literally score 50 championship goals. He’d have buried that Praet chance. 

You're too much Andy. 

[lcfcdamo]

2 hours ago, Bluearmyfox28 said:

Key part to all of these plays was the movement from Praet in behind.

Praets off the ball running is the best part about his game be way to intelligent for most defenders in this league 

[Kienan dewsbury croc]

Won 2 games last time with a Italian manager in charge guess what happened after that #forzaenzo😅

[CloudFox]

So here's a thought-starter: Although I think Iheanacho is the most suited to this system, overall I don't think any of our strikers, despite their talent or legendary status, work well with it. That may be because we're not yet creating enough chances, but even then...

 

So the question is: What kind of striker would thrive in this system? A poacher who is able to gobble up the cut backs, while also being adept at dropping deep to draw in opposition defenders and act as the "wall pass" for our 8s...?

Edited 13 August 2023 by CloudFox

[KFS]

9 minutes ago, CloudFox said:

So here's a thought-starter: Although I think Iheanacho is the most suited to this system, overall I don't think any of our strikers, despite their talent or legendary status, work well with it. That may be because we're not yet creating enough chances, but even then...

 

So the question is: What kind of striker would thrive in this system? A poacher who is able to gobble up the cut backs, while also being adept at dropping deep to draw in opposition defenders and act as the "wall pass" for our 8s...?

Joel Piroe