Tactics Under Maresca

[ClaphamFox]

12 minutes ago, StriderHiryu said:

Finnegan is bang on about chance creation. We have to call it like we see it, we aren't creating as many high quality chances as we would like to, the xG stats prove it. We were outperforming our stats in the Premier League too for quite a long time, when it started regressing to the expected... well that's why we are in this division. The warning signs were there.

However, I am quite relaxed about the situation. Some observations and thoughts from me:

• Looks like he's building the team back to front, hence prioritising GK, Defenders, Midfielders.
• So far every new signing has been quite impressive!
• Aiming to make sure we control games first, to keep chances against us low. Clean sheets win titles!
• We still have "loser mentality" festering in our squad. We feel sorry for ourselves after conceding a goal in every game.
• Late goals are a great sign of fitness and a winning mentality.
• Finnegan and others are right to say the squad we currently have doesn't really support the style of play he wants to coach. But he's taken the job as a project where he will get the time and resources (eventually) to do it.
• Pitch positions of our striker show they drop in way deeper and are expected to help build play. So visions of Iheanacho beating Mitrovic's Championship record might have to go on ice.
• This system is likely supposed to spread out goals between the team. Look at Arsenal's stats from last season (https://amp.sportsmole.co.uk/football/arsenal/2022-23/top-scorers.html)
• Definitely missing players with a clinical edge / composure in the final third. KDH's goal return in the PL was poor, same with Praet, same with Mavididi in Ligue 1, etc.
• It took time for Burnley to adapt to their new system before they started smashing the Championship. Took Arteta time at Arsenal too, etc.
• Transfer window still hasn't closed yet!

Agree with pretty much all of this, but was intrigued by the juxtaposition of these two. Do you think Maresca has created a winning mentality or that we still have year's loser mentality - or somewhere in between?!

[Paninistickers]

1 hour ago, AjcW said:

I really enjoyed a lot of the football being played on Saturday, but I can see why it wont be to everyones taste.

 

Yes there was a lot of slow patient build up, but surely most can acknowledge that it was significantly more positive in its execution (e.g going forwards and cross field, rather than just side to side)

 

Also clear that passing for passings sake is gone, there's a lot more driving runs and players allowed to touch the ball as much as they want! 

 

I do think unfortunately we will probably need to lose a game before we see the emergence of any back up plan, we've had a very favourable start fixture wise, it'll be interesting to see how we execute this against Norwich and Southampton back to back. 

That's what lots of us are banging the drum now about. 

 

Why wait to lose a game before fixing the problems? It's clear to all that we've got away with it in all three games where game changing sitters have been missed

 

My biggest concern is that absolute commitment to a system suits poorer teams better. It gives them a go to playbook when, for example, being outplayed by a better side. Those with better players - and we probably have the best defenders, midfielders and strikers in the division - should be far more flexible and be allowed to 'find a way' realtime 

[StriderHiryu]

13 minutes ago, ClaphamFox said:

Agree with pretty much all of this, but was intrigued by the juxtaposition of these two. Do you think Maresca has created a winning mentality or that we still have year's loser mentality - or somewhere in between?!

Somewhere in between. You don’t fix something like that overnight. Two late winners will already give the team and crowd more confidence. We are definitely far away from it right now!

[Finnegan]

23 minutes ago, ClaphamFox said:

Agree with pretty much all of this, but was intrigued by the juxtaposition of these two. Do you think Maresca has created a winning mentality or that we still have year's loser mentality - or somewhere in between?!

 

I think our heads definitely dropped very noticeably after the Cov goal. We didn't really get our shit together then til he made substitutions. 

 

It was less noticeable with Cardiff because of half time but even after the break I thought we took a while to stop looking sorry for ourselves. 

[ClaphamFox]

2 minutes ago, Finnegan said:

 

I think our heads definitely dropped very noticeably after the Cov goal. We didn't really get our shit together then til he made substitutions. 

 

It was less noticeable with Cardiff because of half time but even after the break I thought we took a while to stop looking sorry for ourselves. 

I agree. It seems that the players' initial reaction to conceding is still poor, but that their ability to recover from that initial reaction has clearly improved. Progress, but a lot more to be done.

[Finnegan]

8 minutes ago, ClaphamFox said:

I agree. It seems that the players' initial reaction to conceding is still poor, but that their ability to recover from that initial reaction has clearly improved. Progress, but a lot more to be done.

 

I'd say that's a fair summary from what we've seen so far. 

[Max Power]

15 minutes ago, ClaphamFox said:

I agree. It seems that the players' initial reaction to conceding is still poor, but that their ability to recover from that initial reaction has clearly improved. Progress, but a lot more to be done.

I think the latter comes from having a clear plan and defined strategy. You get over the shock of conceding and get back to what you’ve been drilled to do rather than dithering around. We will only get better at this the longer the season goes on imo 

[Gamble92]

https://www.leicestermercury.co.uk/sport/football/transfer-news/leicester-city-would-make-big-8693320?fbclid=IwAR1OZjn-1KEKTk3OY36eXHoGtb8v_4obdCVVCL1Z-NdmIvthu0Uc51VnsP8

 

He knows Rudkin too well already. I really hope no one has been suggesting to him that we can get by with what we have. The mentality that, amongst many other things, got us relegated. 

 

If they try and cut corners we won't get promoted. 

[BenTheFox]

2 hours ago, StriderHiryu said:

Finnegan is bang on about chance creation. We have to call it like we see it, we aren't creating as many high quality chances as we would like to, the xG stats prove it. We were outperforming our stats in the Premier League too for quite a long time, when it started regressing to the expected... well that's why we are in this division. The warning signs were there.

However, I am quite relaxed about the situation. Some observations and thoughts from me:

• Looks like he's building the team back to front, hence prioritising GK, Defenders, Midfielders.
• So far every new signing has been quite impressive!
• Aiming to make sure we control games first, to keep chances against us low. Clean sheets win titles!
• We still have "loser mentality" festering in our squad. We feel sorry for ourselves after conceding a goal in every game.
• Late goals are a great sign of fitness and a winning mentality.
• Finnegan and others are right to say the squad we currently have doesn't really support the style of play he wants to coach. But he's taken the job as a project where he will get the time and resources (eventually) to do it.
• Pitch positions of our striker show they drop in way deeper and are expected to help build play. So visions of Iheanacho beating Mitrovic's Championship record might have to go on ice.
• This system is likely supposed to spread out goals between the team. Look at Arsenal's stats from last season (https://amp.sportsmole.co.uk/football/arsenal/2022-23/top-scorers.html)
• Definitely missing players with a clinical edge / composure in the final third. KDH's goal return in the PL was poor, same with Praet, same with Mavididi in Ligue 1, etc.
• It took time for Burnley to adapt to their new system before they started smashing the Championship. Took Arteta time at Arsenal too, etc.
• Transfer window still hasn't closed yet!

I do feel the need to debunk this one somewhat. In terms of results, they got off to a slower start than we have. However, in those early games where they were dropping points, they were actually very dominant and creating plenty of clear cut chances. People still talk of their first league game under Kompany where they beat Huddersfield 1-0 away but completely battered them and should have won by 3 or 4. 

 

My concern at the minute is that we are dominating the ball but not dominating games. The vast majority of our possession is in the middle third and in our own third. I'm not sure how their xG looked at this stage last season but I would imagine it was much better than ours'. I am hoping that Casadei and hopefully an upgrade on the right wing helps improve this. 

Edited 21 August 2023 by BenTheFox

[filbertway]

4 minutes ago, BenTheFox said:

I do feel the need to debunk this one somewhat. In terms of results, they got off to a slower start than we have. However, in those early games where they were dropping points, they were actually very dominant and creating plenty of clear cut chances. People still talk of their first league game under Kompany where they beat Huddersfield 1-0 away but completely battered them and should have won by 3 or 4. 

 

My concern at the minute is that we are dominating the ball but not dominating games. The vast majority of our possession is in the middle third and in our own third. I'm not sure how their xG looked at this stage last season but I would imagine it was much better than our's. I am hoping that Casadei and hopefully an upgrade on the right wing helps will improve this. 

Our xG has been lower than our opponents in each game so far.

 

We are lacking quality and depth in some very important positions. Genuinely can't see how we finish anywhere near the top 2 if we don't strengthen the team and Enzo is set on sticking with this system. We're on 9 points atm but it could easily be 0-3 points.

[James_lcfc]

1 hour ago, ClaphamFox said:

I agree. It seems that the players' initial reaction to conceding is still poor, but that their ability to recover from that initial reaction has clearly improved. Progress, but a lot more to be done.

Has it improved? Or is it just easier to get back into the game against a lower standard of opposition?

 

...and no, I'm not trying to play down any progress we've made, it's just objectively less insurmountable conceding against teams at this level isn't it...Or it feels like it is at least.

[Lillehamring]

On 19/08/2023 at 23:47, Dames said:

If its a conspiracy theory then why did he refuse to answer the question about it at the post match presser? 

I don't recall him being asked or what his replay was - but as with other loaded questions he's been asked by journos looking for a response, it's a question he wouldn' t need to dignify with an answer, he's sidestepped such questions before. even if it was his intention - he's hardly going to say, yes, i have two goalies because i'm trying to make a point about the lack of signings, even though i've just said i'm happy we have the signings we have.  

 

As i said, i didn't hear this question so it's hard to comment.

[Lillehamring]

On 20/08/2023 at 00:21, FrankieADZ said:

do feel at times Vestergaard mind goes off during a game, as you said his lack of pace and positioning is a bit iffy; 

like his game awareness can be amazing one second then hes off like a lamp post; while he hasnt done bad for us this season, personally feel we do need another CB

he also made some great blocks and tackles and, generally, played his part in limiting cardiff to long range efforts.  It seems like a case of people looking to single him out and to focus on his weaknesses rather than what he is doing well and, given this is the tactics thread, has more than played his part in us being 100% at this early stage.

[StriderHiryu]

20 minutes ago, BenTheFox said:

I do feel the need to debunk this one somewhat. In terms of results, they got off to a slower start than we have. However, in those early games where they were dropping points, they were actually very dominant and creating plenty of clear cut chances. People still talk of their first league game under Kompany where they beat Huddersfield 1-0 away but completely battered them and should have won by 3 or 4. 

 

My concern at the minute is that we are dominating the ball but not dominating games. The vast majority of our possession is in the middle third and in our own third. I'm not sure how their xG looked at this stage last season but I would imagine it was much better than ours'. I am hoping that Casadei and hopefully an upgrade on the right wing helps improve this. 

Burnley xG last season first 20 games:

 

Leicester xG First 4 Games:

 

 

So far our numbers are higher for league games...

 

But we have quite some work to match their matchday 4!

[Light66999]

16 hours ago, BenTheFox said:

I'm on board with him. What I would say is that a drawback of the system and how it is being implemented is that we are not seeing the best of Ricardo. Ricardo out wide where he has space can be very dangerous and it feels like we are stifling him in this deep central position. 

I tend to disagree, we're seeing a different side to Ricardo. He could have had multiple assists, mainly the Praet chance. He's showcasing his other attributes, I feel its better in the current position because his injuries have hampered his pace. I feel we're seeing a almost "new" Ricardo.

[lcfcsnow]

Listened to that podcast with Maresca he seems a bit obsessed with players not moving from their position, which I'd say explains the lack of genuine chances being created. Movement can create opportunities also, but we're relying on perfect 15-20 pass moves just to get into the final third. Vardy coming on and doing his thing forced the winning goal on Saturday, I'm concerned this type of play is not in line with Maresca's tactics though.

[EnderbyFox]

8 minutes ago, StriderHiryu said:

Burnley xG last season first 20 games:

 

Leicester xG First 4 Games:

 

 

 

So far our numbers are higher for league games...

 

But we have quite some work to match their matchday 4!

 

 

Beating Sunderland 4-2 with an XG of 0.7?! Did we loan Ward to Sunderland for a game?

[Lillehamring]

On 20/08/2023 at 07:50, ClaphamFox said:

After the Huddersfield game Maresca was directly asked whether by picking two keepers he was sending a message to the board that he wanted more signings. This was his answer:

 “If you take it in that way, then thank you, it’s a message for the club. But it’s your message, not my message.”

 

Although he’s being slightly cryptic here, he clearly wasn’t denying it. If it wasn’t true, you’d think he’d say so.

 

Hardly a smoking gun...  Sorry, i'll continue to incline to a more rational everyday explanation, this reply is deeply ambiguous and certainly doesn't suggest a battle as the OP suggested, merely that, naturally, he's frustrated but he's hardly beating his chest and throwing his toys out the pram.  "Frustration" doesn't automatically equal "Conflict".

 

And if he had denied it, it would simply prompt claims that he's lying, he can't win, which is probably why he offered this sardonic reply.

 

Can we drop this now, no one cares - we're winning, the tactics are working, the subs bench is finally being used well - all is good, let's drop the shitstiring.

[Finnegan]

35 minutes ago, lcfcsnow said:

Listened to that podcast with Maresca he seems a bit obsessed with players not moving from their position, which I'd say explains the lack of genuine chances being created. Movement can create opportunities also, but we're relying on perfect 15-20 pass moves just to get into the final third. Vardy coming on and doing his thing forced the winning goal on Saturday, I'm concerned this type of play is not in line with Maresca's tactics though.

He doesn't mean players are supposed to stand on the spot with no movement off the ball. 

 

He just means the team has a clear shape in both attacking and defensive phases of play and they're expected to stay in their "zones" for both. 

 

So, you know how Madders last year was allowed to wander from the right to go looking for the ball but it left us with zero width down that side? That's a huge no no for Maresca as it should be really for almost any quality possession focused manager. 

 

Our wide players in particular are expected to stay outside and hold width both as outlets for the switch and also to stretch the opposition defence and make them cover more ground. 

[BenTheFox]

13 minutes ago, StriderHiryu said:

Burnley xG last season first 20 games:

 

Leicester xG First 4 Games:

 

 

 

So far our numbers are higher for league games...

 

But we have quite some work to match their matchday 4!

Fair play, I stand corrected. I'm not going to argue with the data which dismantles the basis of my argument. 

[Finnegan]

Just now, BenTheFox said:

Fair play, I stand corrected. I'm not going to argue with the data which dismantles the basis of my argument. 

 

That's not very foxestalk of you. 

[coolhandfox]

39 minutes ago, BenTheFox said:

I do feel the need to debunk this one somewhat. In terms of results, they got off to a slower start than we have. However, in those early games where they were dropping points, they were actually very dominant and creating plenty of clear cut chances. People still talk of their first league game under Kompany where they beat Huddersfield 1-0 away but completely battered them and should have won by 3 or 4. 

 

My concern at the minute is that we are dominating the ball but not dominating games. The vast majority of our possession is in the middle third and in our own third. I'm not sure how their xG looked at this stage last season but I would imagine it was much better than our's. I am hoping that Casadei and hopefully an upgrade on the right wing helps will improve this. 

.

 

 

Edited 21 August 2023 by coolhandfox
Left my post to long before clicking save and got beaten to it.

[Lillehamring]

On 20/08/2023 at 08:19, Wasyls Pec Deck said:

I’m unsure if winning late on again is a positive, or whether it’s a sign of scrapping past teams we should be beating. I’m going with the former, and especially given the transition to this new style. 
 

As we saw against Huddersfield, the style of play may be enough to win some games at this level as it smothers and tires teams out. 
 

I thought yesterday was an improvement on the previous two games, and thought we opened them up more and created more chances. We should have been at least 2 up at half time, and then their goal comes as a bit of a sucker punch and reflects poor game management (KDH giving the ball away in the middle of the park with 30 seconds left on the clock).
 

One thing that’s been apparent in all 3 games is that most opposition chances come from our sloppiness, typically one of the CBs dilly dallying or a midfielder losing the ball. I’m sure as we progress we will cut out these silly mistakes.

 

Agree with all the comments about needing more depth, particularly a tricky right winger. If Mav gets injured that’s a big problem.

I’d also like to see Justin in at left back, and move Doyle to be left sided CB. Vestergaard gets exposed for his lack of pace, and Doyle has more pace and is equally good on the ball.

How many goals have we conceded by any of our defenders being caught out of position - none - granted teams have had chances, but we've seen that this is a risk worth taking given the low quality of EFL strikers.  What we have to consider is: over a season will this cost us sufficient goals that it is worth sacrificing having a ball playing CB?  Justin may have pace, but he's clearly not good enough in the pivot/CB area for maresca to use him there, so it would mean, having a back three of...actually your suggestion doesn't make sense unless you mean doyle to RCB - ie JJ/Faes/Doyle/ricardo? - but then you have doyle playing out of position, faes as the CB pivot and JJ... - mate, this doesn't make any sense, just because vestergaard is slow...

[Lillehamring]

On 20/08/2023 at 10:35, Paninistickers said:

Yup, I think you are right

 

Tbh I do. I've been shocked at just how poor the players are at this level. And I had low expectations from the off. 

 

We could win promotion, imo, quite easily on talent alone and a much more basic system. But as you suggest, we are taking the less trodden path and there's a huge risk in doing that.

I think the difference is Maresca is trying to build something future proofed, a system that can work if we get promoted, a system that will work regardless of who goes and who comes in - playing to the strengths of the current squad is dangerously naive.

[StriderHiryu]

6 minutes ago, BenTheFox said:

Fair play, I stand corrected. I'm not going to argue with the data which dismantles the basis of my argument. 

LMAO!

 

Not trying to do you dirty! I did also hear that Burnley fans were quite impressed early on with Kompany. However, they were subjected to Dyche ball for 5+ years. Brendan's style was awful at the end of his tenure, but we saw major trophies, 5th place finishes and some amazing games like Southampton and Newcastle performances.

 

Right now we see potential of where we could get to, but we've got a long way to get there. To be fair to our new manager, he says this ad nauseam.