Tactics Under Maresca

[Scotch]

55 minutes ago, Paninistickers said:

The line of 'best ever start, 4 wins from 5 games' is incredibly weak and binary. 

 

There are plenty on here who've been calling it out for weeks that a defeat is coming and to fix the issues before it happens. 

 

The dogged persistence with a formula is for weak teams, not strong. Weak teams need a default formula to cling on tom We need to be let off the leash. There were the first signs yesterday when the Lisbon lad came on and crowd and players alike were looking to give him the ball at any opportunity. 

 

The persistence with the wide lads -  Macateer (who was ok yesterday) tbf, Mavdidi (who's weak all roind) and the Turkish lad (looks.limited) - all  aren't at the same level as the rest of the players  is costing us. The persistence with only having one gear is costing us. 

 

It isn't a crime to play two up top. It isn't a crime to play overlapping or under lapping fullbacks. 

 

 

 

 

I don't think the wide players are the issue. So far this season, this is were the goals have come from. 

 

The issue for me is we've not settled on the right number 8's. 

 

Going forward, as far as I can see, our wingers GENERALLY stay fairly wide. So this forces the defenders to make a choice, get closer to them or give them a little space. When they have given them that little bit of breathing space, we've hurt teams. Mavadidi, Mcateer, Marcal all scored and the delivery for KDH's two goals came from that area so that side of the system is working. 

 

It's when the defenders make that first choice. Now, when the RB and LB or whatever they are playing get closer to the wingers, it limits what those players can do but it stretches the defence. Add to this, Nacho will usually always drop deep, bringing a defender or defensive midfielder with him. So now they have big gaps in their defense for our two number 8's to play in and THAT is were we've struggled. They've not really hurt teams consistently from that position and if they start doing that... then we will start being more comfortable.

 

We are giving teams a choice. Give space to our wingers or give space to our #8s and right now, that's an easy decision because the 8s aren't as dangerous as the wingers. If they pick up that part of their game, it'll get a whole lot harder for the opposition. 

[lcfcsnow]

8 minutes ago, adejo92 said:

Yup. I've not enjoyed a single game this season, even when we have won.

The problem I've got is I can't stand watching Man City and haven't for years. It's boring and that's with the world class players they have that make no end of chances compared to this reincarnation with lesser players, less chances, more passing about, taking 15-20 minutes to carve out an opportunity. My ideal style is Klopp's Liverpool, and what looks like Spurs this season under the new manager. This quote from Iraola the new manager of Bournemouth sums it up for me

 

Quote

“I prefer too much chaos to too much organisation. I prefer to play at a high pace, even if it means a touch of hastiness, than play at a lower pace and have a bit more control.”

If only! After years of Rodgers, I feel like this approach is needed.

[Collymore]

30 minutes ago, Livid said:

I took someone yesterday for their first time this season and they asked if we were playing worse than usual. I told them no and they were like Oh OK. 
 

We were absolutely dog turd though, not pressing properly, looked half arsed at times and couldn't finish to save our lives. So we did play worse than usual.

[foxfanazer]

I'm finding it so difficult to know what to say about us. On the one hand we're right up there but let's be honest we've been turgid to watch. It's certainly not the time to overreact but I hope we're not stuck with one style of play because I'm not sure we have the players for it

[coolhandfox]

The bloke has been here 79 days just over a 2.5 months to imprint his ideas on a squad who's just come of the back of a dreadful season with which has left confidence on the floor.

 

Since the end of last season 15 players have left and 9 players have arrived, 24 personnel changes almost a whole squad.

 

He's had to assemble a whole new coach staff.

 

We have lost our two top scorers, one of whom was our chief creator.

 

According to the Foxestalk masses he's having to deal with the worse DOF of all time.

 

He's had to deal with want away players, some who are still here.

 

According to 99% of Foxestalk we had the worse planned preseason ever.

 

He is also relatively unexperienced manager.

 

Some of the comments on here are comical.

 

Give the bloke a chance ffs......

 

 

 

 

Edited 3 September 2023 by coolhandfox

[ian__marshall]

I agree with @StriderHiryu that it's far too early to be assessing the effectiveness of the system Enzo is trying to implement.

 

The problem fans have at the minute is it's hard to know whether the deficiencies that are clearly there are down to tactical oversight, aren't being translated to the pitch quite in the way intended, or are still on the long to-do list. 

 

A couple of times this season we've seen various clever counter tactics to try and stretch our back three, whether it be Coventry's attempt to force the high line to create space in behind, or Hull's method of drawing the left and right CBs out really wide to isolate the central defender. Both methods have seen the opponent go long on the turnover thereby taking the double pivot out of the equation and in Hull's case yesterday creating 3v3s, attack v defence.

 

Assuming the plan is to play a style similar to Man City, I think the problem we have at the moment defensively stems from the way we attack. We're creating overloads but we're not creating asymmetric overloads. If you look at Man City last season for instance, it was not uncommon for Grealish to pick up the ball on the left, drift in field and eventually end up on the right of the opponents box linking up with Mahrez/Silva, with KDB dropping in to the space left by Grealish. This creates a situation where you have a 2v1 with the full back faced up against 2 of your most talented attacking players. The way the opponent nullifies the threat is to change shape with a midfielder dropping in to support the full back and an attacker dropping into the space vacated by the midfielder. 

 

If the attack breaks down the defending team now have two choices; go long to bypass the midfield or try to play through a heavily congested central area with a risk of losing the ball in their own half. Because they've been forced to change shape if they choose to go long, they now no longer have numerical parity in the attacking line and it becomes 3v2 in favour of the defence. 

 

Of course for this to work effectively it requires KDH and Wilf to have the intelligence to pick up the spaces vacated by the wide attackers drifting inside, and nothing so far has suggested to me that they have the capability to recognise what's going off around them. 

 

As much as it's tempting to switch formation (and it is because we're not able to get the best out of Ricardo in attacking situations currently), Maresca needs to stick to the plan as the more the team familiarise themselves with the system the more it'll become embedded in their style of play and eventually we'll cut teams apart with ease. Burnley last season are a good indicator of what lies ahead. 

 

I think more than anything right now we just need a few tweaks to get the best out of the players available. For instance if we can get more movement from the front 3 that'll create more clear cut opportunities. I also think that after the break it might be time to introduce Casadei to the starting lineup ahead of Wilf, and based upon yesterday's performance I'd like to see a lot more of Fatawu. 

 

Be patient guy's, it wasn't a great performance but we created enough chances to win the game. Yes, we came unstuck and have at times rode our luck, but we're very much work in progress and being 1 point off the top knowing there's so much more to come has to give everyone some encouragement that we're on track to bounce back, particularly as it's an incredibly long season and there's not many in this league with the depth of squad that we have. 

 

To add some perspective, whilst yesterday was frustrating for us, imagine being a Southampton fan this morning. Thumped 5-0 and having to put up with that BR wannabe. I know who's camp I'd rather be in. 

[sphericalfox]

We are implementing 'patient play', it'll take a bit of time to finesse. This ironically takes patience form the fans. Something we're known for...

[Royston.]

Losing like they did yesterday was always going to happen and will happen again and again because Enzo won't change tactics and the players aren't good enough.

 

Just got to collect enough points to stay in and around top 6 and recruit in January.

[BKLFox]

To quote the man “this is football not PlayStation..”

[coolhandfox]

7 minutes ago, Royston. said:

Losing like they did yesterday was always going to happen and will happen again and again because Enzo won't change tactics and the players aren't good enough.

 

Just got to collect enough points to stay in and around top 6 and recruit in January.

Shock football team loses a game.

 

 

Edited 3 September 2023 by coolhandfox

[willie-bell-in-rothley]

26 minutes ago, coolhandfox said:

The bloke has been here 79 days just over a 2.5 months to imprint his ideas on a squad who's just come of the back of a dreadful season with which has left confidence on the floor.

 

Since the end of last season 15 players have left and 9 players have arrived, 24 personnel changes almost a whole squad.

 

He's had to assemble a whole new coach staff.

 

We have lost our two top scorers, one of whom was our chief creator.

 

According to the Foxestalk masses he's having to deal with the worse DOF of all time.

 

He's had to deal with want away players, some who are still here.

 

According to 99% of Foxestalk we had the worse plan preseason ever.

 

He is also relatively unexperienced manager.

 

Some of the comments on here are comical.

 

Give the bloke a chance ffs......

 

 

 

 

Yes ok, but football is all about making chances and scoring goals, yesterday was boring, 

[Royston.]

2 minutes ago, coolhandfox said:

Shock football team loses a game.

 

 

I think you misread.

 

"was always going to happen" kind of indicates the defeat was no shock.

 

 

[coolhandfox]

2 minutes ago, willie-bell-in-rothley said:

Yes ok, but football is all about making chances and scoring goals, yesterday was boring, 

Didn't you read the part about comical comments 

 

 

[coolhandfox]

3 minutes ago, Royston. said:

I think you misread.

 

"was always going to happen" kind of indicates the defeat was no shock.

 

 

So you have decided the tactic and players aren't good enough after 7 games, where we have won 6 and lost 1.

[Happy Fox]

To be honest I think creativity from central midfield was the one area we needed to address in the summer transfer window. Ilias Chair , James McAtee we looked at but didn’t bring any of them in, I don’t know whether we can get a free agent in through the door but you would hope we can find one ASAP for January window.

[Claudio Fannieri]

47 minutes ago, coolhandfox said:

The bloke has been here 79 days just over a 2.5 months to imprint his ideas on a squad who's just come of the back of a dreadful season with which has left confidence on the floor.

 

Since the end of last season 15 players have left and 9 players have arrived, 24 personnel changes almost a whole squad.

 

He's had to assemble a whole new coach staff.

 

We have lost our two top scorers, one of whom was our chief creator.

 

According to the Foxestalk masses he's having to deal with the worse DOF of all time.

 

He's had to deal with want away players, some who are still here.

 

According to 99% of Foxestalk we had the worse plan preseason ever.

 

He is also relatively unexperienced manager.

 

Some of the comments on here are comical.

 

Give the bloke a chance ffs......

 

 

 

 

What a great post 👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼

[foxfanazer]

You can't have an objective conversation on this forum anymore because any slight criticism of the club or areas for improvement are jumped on by the same old posters who deny any problems exist. Was the same under Rodgers too. Complete and utter denial of any issues. 

 

Nobody's calling for Maresca's head are they? They're simply pointing out that this kind of result was due after the nature of some/all of our wins this season. Certain players really struggle with ball retention and our creation of high end chances are slim. Choose to ignore it all you like but there's discussions to be had

[SouthStandUpperTier]

The problem with wanting to play possession football is that it simply invites (or forces) the opponent to sit in a low block, which is fine if you have Man City level talent, but we don't. We've been averaging about 65-70% possession in games yet haven't had an xG above 1.5 in any game so far this season. I don't think it will happen but I think Enzo needs to surrender a bit of control and invite a more open game. Our play is a bit too predictable and formulaic at the moment. We look over-coached imho.

[longy]

53 minutes ago, coolhandfox said:

The bloke has been here 79 days just over a 2.5 months to imprint his ideas on a squad who's just come of the back of a dreadful season with which has left confidence on the floor.

 

Since the end of last season 15 players have left and 9 players have arrived, 24 personnel changes almost a whole squad.

 

He's had to assemble a whole new coach staff.

 

We have lost our two top scorers, one of whom was our chief creator.

 

According to the Foxestalk masses he's having to deal with the worse DOF of all time.

 

He's had to deal with want away players, some who are still here.

 

According to 99% of Foxestalk we had the worse plan preseason ever.

 

He is also relatively unexperienced manager.

 

Some of the comments on here are comical.

 

Give the bloke a chance ffs......

 

 

 

 

Quite possibly the most sensible post I've ever read on here.

 

T R U S T  T H E  P R O C E S S

 

👏🏻

[Aleksz]

Can’t be bothered to read through the hyperbole in here. There was nothing wrong with tactics yesterday, there was a problem with selection in terms of not starting Casadei and Fatawu (in total hindsight with the latter), and there was a problem with too many players having off days. When your two “best players” (7/10’s at most) is a rookie winger and a CB everyone usually hates, then you’re going to have a bad day.

 

But also, when you’re having an off day it’s important to trust the process and Enzo’s favourite phrase, the idea. We’re going to get better & better and our season & philosophy is not defined by 1 game out of 46.

[foxfanazer]

56 minutes ago, coolhandfox said:

The bloke has been here 79 days just over a 2.5 months to imprint his ideas on a squad who's just come of the back of a dreadful season with which has left confidence on the floor.

 

Since the end of last season 15 players have left and 9 players have arrived, 24 personnel changes almost a whole squad.

 

He's had to assemble a whole new coach staff.

 

We have lost our two top scorers, one of whom was our chief creator.

 

According to the Foxestalk masses he's having to deal with the worse DOF of all time.

 

He's had to deal with want away players, some who are still here.

 

According to 99% of Foxestalk we had the worse plan preseason ever.

 

He is also relatively unexperienced manager.

 

Some of the comments on here are comical.

 

Give the bloke a chance ffs......

 

 

 

 

I wholeheartedly agree wit this though. To get the results he has with all the circus surrounding the club is hugely impressive and I do think he's the right man for the job. We always need to be improving though 

[studentofthegame]

It is definitely going to take time and honestly, 6 wins out of 7 so far this season is probably more than we deserve with some of the performances we have put in so far, if we had lost the opening game and then won the last 6 on the bounce then everybody would be buzzing

I think this international break is actually at a good time for us, the squad is finalised, new signings in, chance to reintegrate some of the outcasts if Enzo wants to, 2 weeks to drill the system into them, if we come back after the break without looking any more fluid and comfortable then I would begin to get a little concerned though

[foxfanazer]

3 minutes ago, studentofthegame said:

It is definitely going to take time and honestly, 6 wins out of 7 so far this season is probably more than we deserve with some of the performances we have put in so far, if we had lost the opening game and then won the last 6 on the bounce then everybody would be buzzing

I think this international break is actually at a good time for us, the squad is finalised, new signings in, chance to reintegrate some of the outcasts if Enzo wants to, 2 weeks to drill the system into them, if we come back after the break without looking any more fluid and comfortable then I would begin to get a little concerned though

Yeah in a way it was probably the perfect time to lose. Tough games after the break though 

[Aleksz]

2 minutes ago, studentofthegame said:

It is definitely going to take time and honestly, 6 wins out of 7 so far this season is probably more than we deserve with some of the performances we have put in so far, if we had lost the opening game and then won the last 6 on the bounce then everybody would be buzzing

I think this international break is actually at a good time for us, the squad is finalised, new signings in, chance to reintegrate some of the outcasts if Enzo wants to, 2 weeks to drill the system into them, if we come back after the break without looking any more fluid and comfortable then I would begin to get a little concerned though

Agree with this but I think to my knowledge no end of them will be going away on internationals across senior and youth levels 

[murphy]

2 minutes ago, foxfanazer said:

You can't have an objective conversation on this forum anymore because any slight criticism of the club or areas for improvement are jumped on by the same old posters who deny any problems exist. Was the same under Rodgers too. Complete and utter denial of any issues. 

 

Nobody's calling for Maresca's head are they? They're simply pointing out that this kind of result was due after the nature of some/all of our wins this season. Certain players really struggle with ball retention and our creation of high end chances are slim. Choose to ignore it all you like but there's discussions to be had

Exactly.  Well put.

 

I hate it when we get the self-appointed content moderators that seek to suppress any kind of dissent or opinion that hey don't like.

 

I know that it's early days, I know that there is a change of manager, personnel and system but should we sit in silence until enough time has passed that we are allowed to comment?   Or should we be allowed to comment on first impressions and what we see  in front of us each week?   This is a forum and it exists in real time, not some arbitrary point in the future.