Tactics Under Maresca

[The_77]

5 hours ago, Dames said:

Any kind of criticism isn’t allowed until after the fact. 
 

I still think we have the same weaknesses as last season and i’m disappointed that the club/Enzo haven’t recognised that. We are still too soft through the middle and extremely vulnerable to turn overs. Playing against us is simple, sit in and let us over play until the time is right to press, win the ball and counter. 
 

Its frustrating because we couldn’t break down the low block teams last season which contributed to our demise and the clubs response going into a league where every team will low block against us is ‘more of the same please’. 
 

Some posters won’t want to acknowledge this but already at this point in the season its sink or swim, we need to make improvements and fast because we can’t keep riding our luck in games. I understand the need to be patient and I am hopeful but i’m also not blind to the fact that many issue we had last season have not yet been addressed. We can’t continue to gloss over that just because some of our passing and play is a bit more hipster friendly. 

Breaking down a low block has been a problem for us for years and Maresca has been here for, what, two months? And he’s joined by plenty of players who may not have even sorted out their living accommodations for the season yet. And some expect that to be sorted out already?
 

Teams sit in a low block because it’s effective when you have limited options going forward and will have trouble keeping the ball. We don’t have some sort of right to buckets of clear-cut chances just because a side is staying compact. 
 

I firmly believe that last season’s team wouldn’t have gotten a promotion spot if we were forced to play in the Championship. We have to level set where we think we’re starting from in this transitional period.

 

Frankly, I think we’re playing much better than I expected from the start of the season with all of the transition and unknowns coming out of the summer. 
 

Our players are still learning to play together and it will take lot of time to get to the point where they can play a complicated system with lots of technical requirements in a way that’s more assertive and free-flowing, but we’ll get there. 

[The_77]

4 minutes ago, The_77 said:

Breaking down a low block has been a problem for us for years and Maresca has been here for, what, two months? And he’s joined by plenty of players who may not have even sorted out their living accommodations for the season yet. And some expect that to be sorted out already?
 

Teams sit in a low block because it’s effective when you have limited options going forward and will have trouble keeping the ball. We don’t have some sort of right to buckets of clear-cut chances just because a side is staying compact. 
 

I firmly believe that last season’s team wouldn’t have gotten a promotion spot if we were forced to play in the Championship. We have to level set where we think we’re starting from in this transitional period.

 

Frankly, I think we’re playing much better than I expected from the start of the season with all of the transition and unknowns coming out of the summer. 
 

Our players are still learning to play together and it will take lot of time to get to the point where they can play a complicated system with lots of technical requirements in a way that’s more assertive and free-flowing, but we’ll get there. 

And let’s not forget about how poor the mental fortitude was throughout the squad last season, it’s had to have taken some effort to change the thinking around Seagrave. 

[StanSP]

6 hours ago, Dames said:

Some posters won’t want to acknowledge this but already at this point in the season its sink or swim, we need to make improvements and fast because we can’t keep riding our luck in games. I understand the need to be patient and I am hopeful but i’m also not blind to the fact that many issue we had last season have not yet been addressed. We can’t continue to gloss over that just because some of our passing and play is a bit more hipster friendly. 

It most definitely isn't sink or swim when we've only just come into September and only played 5 games! We've won 4 not playing that well. I guess an optimist sees it as a good thing in that we can still get better and perhaps win games more convincingly. A pessimist would see it as we'll constantly get found out and just go on a massive nosedive and struggle to win any more.

 

But this league is about winning games and just getting out of the division, no matter how good or bad the performances are. It just becomes a bonus when the football is entertaining or attractive to watch. Thankfully for us, even when we've not played a full 90 minutes 'well', we've still played some very nice football and broken down teams. It's just we've lacked some clinical finishing and ruthlessness which I trust and hope will come in time. 

 

I think it gets taken for granted that Maresca hasn't been here that long and there's been a lot of turnover in players. If anyone expects things to just click 100% straight away, I think that's their naivety coming to the fore ahead of realism.

[The_77]

6 hours ago, Dames said:

Some posters won’t want to acknowledge this but already at this point in the season its sink or swim, we need to make improvements and fast because we can’t keep riding our luck in games.

We won’t acknowledge that because that’s absolutely not true after 5 games of a 46-game Championship season. There isn’t a side anywhere on the table who would subscribe to that line of thinking.

[TrentFox]

11 minutes ago, The_77 said:

 

I firmly believe that last season’s team wouldn’t have gotten a promotion spot if we were forced to play in the Championship. 

Wow. That’s quite a statement. 🤔. My honest worry is purely about this season’s team. And not just based on Saturday’s shit-show. I watched that game at the weekend and didn’t get out of my seat for 70 minutes. It just looked flat, unimaginative and sideways. Rodgers reincarnate. I’m going to be honest, I fear a bit for our season. We could easily fold at saints and our fragile confidence may perish. We’ve gone down a particular path with Enzo. It will take some retracing if this goes south. For me, he needs to double-down on it. Be even bolder. Drop the under-performing KDH, the ineffective Ricardo - or play him where he can be effective. And, as I like getting a ton of abuse by random strangers on the internet, I’m honestly not sure where that is. I saw him get absolutely slaughtered for pace at the weekend. Enzo has put a lot of faith in him in this system. What if he’s backed the wrong horse? 🥴

[Lambert09]

18 minutes ago, The_77 said:

And let’s not forget about how poor the mental fortitude was throughout the squad last season, it’s had to have taken some effort to change the thinking around Seagrave. 

the late goals are something we completely lost in the last two seasons, that belief was gone. You can tell we push until the end now which is a refreshing change.

 

We we’re unlucky against hull, in the past we would have buckled and not got close to scoring, whereas in this one, it felt more like the shooting boots were off rather than a lack of beleief we’d break them down. 

 

We were playing patiently even with 10 to go, so the players felt they were going to get something. 

[The_77]

25 minutes ago, TrentFox said:

Wow. That’s quite a statement. 🤔. My honest worry is purely about this season’s team. And not just based on Saturday’s shit-show. I watched that game at the weekend and didn’t get out of my seat for 70 minutes. It just looked flat, unimaginative and sideways. Rodgers reincarnate. I’m going to be honest, I fear a bit for our season. We could easily fold at saints and our fragile confidence may perish. We’ve gone down a particular path with Enzo. It will take some retracing if this goes south. For me, he needs to double-down on it. Be even bolder. Drop the under-performing KDH, the ineffective Ricardo - or play him where he can be effective. And, as I like getting a ton of abuse by random strangers on the internet, I’m honestly not sure where that is. I saw him get absolutely slaughtered for pace at the weekend. Enzo has put a lot of faith in him in this system. What if he’s backed the wrong horse? 🥴

Or what if he’s still learning about the players and getting the newer signings up to speed before making those changes?

 

I don’t know how much Championship football you watch but so much of this division is down to picking up points where you can as you build momentum for the end of the season. We’ve just played 7 games in a short period and are in for a gauntlet of 41 more games plus cup matches.
 

This is not the time to panic. 

 

Edited 4 September 2023 by The_77
Typo

[The_77]

17 minutes ago, The_77 said:

Or what if he’s still learning about the players and getting the newer signings up to speed before making those changes?

 

I don’t know how much Championship football you watch but so much of this division is down to picking up points where you can as you build momentum for the end of the season. We’ve just played 7 games in a short period and are in for a gauntlet of 41 more games plus cup matches.
 

This is not the time to panic. 

 

@TrentFox feel free to bookmark this post in case I turn out to be completely wrong. 

[TrentFox]

9 minutes ago, The_77 said:

@TrentFox feel free to bookmark this post in case I turn out to be completely wrong. 

None of us know, buddy. We all have feelings - and they change like the weather. Not looking to be right. Just venting. No offence ever intended 

[SafewayFox]

Loving how all the different opinions are being respected on here.

 

I agree that it is knee jerk to even consider Enzo’s future BUT a couple of questions that I’d like to see ironed out throughout the course of the season.

 

1) In match tweaks - if our set up of a lopsided back 3/4 is getting overrun, how does Enzo mid match address this (preferably with no notebook in sight)

 

2) What do the players need to understand as part of Enzo ball to take the game to the opposition in the first 10/15 minutes?

 

Part 2 for me is a big one, I’ve read countless comments on here about Enzo ball benefitting from sides tiring against us but if our (still) soft under belly concedes then that game plan goes out of the window, as it’s a lot easier to conserve energy when have 10 men behind the ball.

[Paninistickers]

2 hours ago, TrentFox said:

Wow. That’s quite a statement. 🤔. My honest worry is purely about this season’s team. And not just based on Saturday’s shit-show. I watched that game at the weekend and didn’t get out of my seat for 70 minutes. It just looked flat, unimaginative and sideways. Rodgers reincarnate. I’m going to be honest, I fear a bit for our season. We could easily fold at saints and our fragile confidence may perish. We’ve gone down a particular path with Enzo. It will take some retracing if this goes south. For me, he needs to double-down on it. Be even bolder. Drop the under-performing KDH, the ineffective Ricardo - or play him where he can be effective. And, as I like getting a ton of abuse by random strangers on the internet, I’m honestly not sure where that is. I saw him get absolutely slaughtered for pace at the weekend. Enzo has put a lot of faith in him in this system. What if he’s backed the wrong horse? 🥴

Ricky is consistently being robbed in midfield. we need pace at the back. Doyle is being skinned alive as, frankly, he's no left back. I'm convinced Vk would love played the role better. The wingers - Inc Macateer - are all sub par but are immune from criticism as they have scored - the single bright light being the Lisbon lad on Saturday. The team lacks running ATM. We don't attack with any pace - in fact we actually slow down the game to allow the opponents into shape  as we must build via this 'system'. Two up top would.pull the opposing centre halves all over the place. But nope, thou shalt play a false nine. 

 

Still, all good, as we've beaten six appalling teams - most of them.luckily. 

 

 

[Dames]

3 hours ago, StanSP said:

It most definitely isn't sink or swim when we've only just come into September and only played 5 games! We've won 4 not playing that well. I guess an optimist sees it as a good thing in that we can still get better and perhaps win games more convincingly. A pessimist would see it as we'll constantly get found out and just go on a massive nosedive and struggle to win any more.

 

But this league is about winning games and just getting out of the division, no matter how good or bad the performances are. It just becomes a bonus when the football is entertaining or attractive to watch. Thankfully for us, even when we've not played a full 90 minutes 'well', we've still played some very nice football and broken down teams. It's just we've lacked some clinical finishing and ruthlessness which I trust and hope will come in time. 

 

I think it gets taken for granted that Maresca hasn't been here that long and there's been a lot of turnover in players. If anyone expects things to just click 100% straight away, I think that's their naivety coming to the fore ahead of realism.

I wouldn’t say we’d go on a nose dive but Hull tactically out done us on Saturday and we’ve struggled to actually look impressive against teams you’d expect to be at the lower end of the table. We still have the same problems as last season and we as far away from solving them now as we were then. The only real difference is our full backs invert and come infield to give another option to keep the ball squarely in front of the low block.
 

This is why its sink or swim because the blueprint is there to beat us and it can be implemented by teams effectively with far less resources than us. If we don’t quickly learn how to break teams down with this style we are going to struggle because its the same old story. Pressure the technically weaker players (or wait for a mistake that will always happen) in the middle to win the ball and play it in behind 2 cbs who are very uncomfortable defending that type of ball. Then just sit back and let us play in front of them for the next 60 mins. 
 

I’m not one who keeps pining for the 15/16 style of play but a lot of people keep scoffing at it on here as some sort of neanderthal style of play but the reality is, that style has caused us nothing but problems for over 2 seasons and we are no closer to getting to grips with it in a league full of teams that will play that style. 

[Dames]

3 hours ago, The_77 said:

We won’t acknowledge that because that’s absolutely not true after 5 games of a 46-game Championship season. There isn’t a side anywhere on the table who would subscribe to that line of thinking.

We’re the massive favourites for the league with resources that quite frankly dwarf 21 other teams in the league and we are relying on last minute goals to scrape by teams that won’t be challenging this season.

 

We need a statement performance and win to show we mean business because Hull have shown the way now, its how we react that will define the season in my opinion. 

[sbfox]

14 minutes ago, Dames said:

I wouldn’t say we’d go on a nose dive but Hull tactically out done us on Saturday and we’ve struggled to actually look impressive against teams you’d expect to be at the lower end of the table. We still have the same problems as last season and we as far away from solving them now as we were then. The only real difference is our full backs invert and come infield to give another option to keep the ball squarely in front of the low block.
 

This is why its sink or swim because the blueprint is there to beat us and it can be implemented by teams effectively with far less resources than us. If we don’t quickly learn how to break teams down with this style we are going to struggle because its the same old story. Pressure the technically weaker players (or wait for a mistake that will always happen) in the middle to win the ball and play it in behind 2 cbs who are very uncomfortable defending that type of ball. Then just sit back and let us play in front of them for the next 60 mins. 
 

I’m not one who keeps pining for the 15/16 style of play but a lot of people keep scoffing at it on here as some sort of neanderthal style of play but the reality is, that style has caused us nothing but problems for over 2 seasons and we are no closer to getting to grips with it in a league full of teams that will play that style. 

This just isn't true though. We haven't played this way for two seasons - this is all brand new for us.

 

There are very few teams in this league that will play 442.

 

Hull didn't do anything on Saturday. We couldn't finish our chances and we dominated the match. 

[Lesta2014]

Positives so far:

 

good possessions stats- less time spent chasing and getting the ball back

vareity of scorers- not overly reliant on one player 

late goals- shows good fitness levels

no more than one conceded per game so far.

 

negatives so far:

 

difficulty breaking down teams the deeper they sit

no league goals for our strikers yet

lack of creativity when getting in and around the final third.

 

I'm hopeful it will come together nicely over the next month. Enzo has wingers he wanted now and also a new striker. Let’s see how we fair this next month, put a couple of the negatives right and we will be well on our way to coming straight back up. 

[Dames]

8 minutes ago, sbfox said:

This just isn't true though. We haven't played this way for two seasons - this is all brand new for us.

 

There are very few teams in this league that will play 442.

 

Hull didn't do anything on Saturday. We couldn't finish our chances and we dominated the match. 

Its not brand new at all. Its purposely slow possession based build up play. It just has a few different tweaks but it is very similar to the stuff we played under Rodgers and Puel.

 

You say Hull didnt do anything, no not at all besides take 3 points and restrict us to half chances for the majority of the game. 

[sbfox]

1 minute ago, Dames said:

Its not brand new at all. Its purposely slow possession based build up play. It just has a few different tweaks but it is very similar to the stuff we played under Rodgers and Puel.

 

You say Hull didnt do anything, no not at all besides take 3 points and restrict us to half chances for the majority of the game. 

Yeah, but it's not similar to whatever Rogers and Puel (are we still banging on about Puel...) dished up. If you can't see it, I can't help you. 

 

I don't think Maresca's tactics can be blamed for his players failing to put away at least one of the many chances we carved out. 

[Dames]

Just now, sbfox said:

Yeah, but it's not similar to whatever Rogers and Puel (are we still banging on about Puel...) dished up. If you can't see it, I can't help you. 

 

I don't think Maresca's tactics can be blamed for his players failing to put away at least one of the many chances we carved out. 

Okay. So under Puel we dominated possession but struggled to break teams down. Under Rodgers we dominated possession but struggled to break teams down (besides that 9 month period before he got his new deal when we were unreal). Under Maresca guess what? We dominate possession but struggle to break teams down, so far anyway. 
 

Just because we tuck a right back into centre mid it doesn’t mean there aren’t any similarities. There is way more in common than not. 

[Lillehamring]

9 hours ago, StriderHiryu said:

 

There was a moment in the second half where Hull played a ball straight down the middle and Vestergaard made a yellow card challenge to take the player out. He was lucky that Faes was behind him slightly, otherwise that was a red card offence. Jannick is doing a good job at controlling the pace of the game and starting moves from the back. But Maresca himself has said he will struggle with the ball in behind. If you look at that clip again, though, he is caught flat-footed and should have been closer to his man as the ball was played through.

 

I think he has been OK so far and fairly consistent, but no better than that. Doyle was great up until Hull where he had a bad time. Faes has been inconsistent, great in some games, culpable in others.

 

I remember that and technically he wasn't done for pace, he was just beaten too easily, not his finest moment, no - but if i remember correctly it was on the half way line - firstly he shouldn't be exposed to a situation like that, even if he's got pace to burn, chances are he has to make the foul, which brings us to...secondly, in that area a tactical foul is pretty standard these days, winks did it last week i believe - and it's so far away from the goal, you very rarely see a ref give a red because there're usually other players near by and there's so much space to argue that anything could happen, or that it isn't a goal scoring opportunity.

 

Regardless, there wasn't a time where he found himself in a foot race with an attacker.

[sbfox]

12 minutes ago, Dames said:

Okay. So under Puel we dominated possession but struggled to break teams down. Under Rodgers we dominated possession but struggled to break teams down (besides that 9 month period before he got his new deal when we were unreal). Under Maresca guess what? We dominate possession but struggle to break teams down, so far anyway. 
 

Just because we tuck a right back into centre mid it doesn’t mean there aren’t any similarities. There is way more in common than not. 

Like I said, I can't help you

[Dames]

Just now, sbfox said:

Like I said, I can't help you

Ah you’re one of those. Got it. 

[Lillehamring]

1 hour ago, SafewayFox said:

Loving how all the different opinions are being respected on here.

 

I agree that it is knee jerk to even consider Enzo’s future BUT a couple of questions that I’d like to see ironed out throughout the course of the season.

 

1) In match tweaks - if our set up of a lopsided back 3/4 is getting overrun, how does Enzo mid match address this (preferably with no notebook in sight)

 

2) What do the players need to understand as part of Enzo ball to take the game to the opposition in the first 10/15 minutes?

 

Part 2 for me is a big one, I’ve read countless comments on here about Enzo ball benefitting from sides tiring against us but if our (still) soft under belly concedes then that game plan goes out of the window, as it’s a lot easier to conserve energy when have 10 men behind the ball.

I think in most games this season we've actually started strongly, with pace and fluidity - and then it gradually slows and slows and we drop into that steady patient mode.  Whilst at the same time, the opposition also seem to be starting strong before dropping into a deeper block - it's not impossible that these things are connected.

 

What we need to improve on is capitalising on the good starts before we settle into the long slow possession.

[Lillehamring]

55 minutes ago, Dames said:

I wouldn’t say we’d go on a nose dive but Hull tactically out done us on Saturday and we’ve struggled to actually look impressive against teams you’d expect to be at the lower end of the table. We still have the same problems as last season and we as far away from solving them now as we were then. The only real difference is our full backs invert and come infield to give another option to keep the ball squarely in front of the low block.
 

This is why its sink or swim because the blueprint is there to beat us and it can be implemented by teams effectively with far less resources than us. If we don’t quickly learn how to break teams down with this style we are going to struggle because its the same old story. Pressure the technically weaker players (or wait for a mistake that will always happen) in the middle to win the ball and play it in behind 2 cbs who are very uncomfortable defending that type of ball. Then just sit back and let us play in front of them for the next 60 mins. 
 

I’m not one who keeps pining for the 15/16 style of play but a lot of people keep scoffing at it on here as some sort of neanderthal style of play but the reality is, that style has caused us nothing but problems for over 2 seasons and we are no closer to getting to grips with it in a league full of teams that will play that style. 

Not shitstirring here, Dames. genuine question:

 

regarding:  Hull tactically out done us on Saturday - if we played a game and allowed an opponent to take 21 shots at us, whilst only generating 4 on target ourselves (including one that was deflected) - would you be posting on here saying that we tactically outdid them?  Forget about the result and our poor shooting, simply from a tactical perspective - can it really be argued that exposing yourself to that amount of shots can be tactically sensible or, for that matter, even a tactic?

 

Also, the problem we had last year was giving the ball away and immediately conceding - this has  happened once this year from KDH setting up Ramsey - and we've only conceded one goal from a set piece - which problems are you thinking of that have not been corrected?

 

I mean if this is all that you're basing your sink and swim argument on, apart from the fact that there is such a long way to go, and we are so new to all this, these seem to be fairly intangible issues (if they even are issues) that you are suggesting.

[Lillehamring]

Thinking about tactics, the pre match thread seems to be full of conjecture about the likelihood of maresca making several changes against southampton. My take (below) is slightly different.  I just think that having had these two weeks to work with players (notably, mads aside, we'll have a core of vestergaard (i believe, or maybe even coady), winks, kdh and vardy) he'll want to stick with the players he's built this positive start to the season from, perhaps we'll even see someadvancement, development of what is so far in place - and he'll want to do that with what he feels is his strongest side (even if there are doubts over some recent performances from some of them....

 

Quote

Given that, on paper, this would probably rank in our 3 toughest games this season, and that we are still very early in the learning process, i don't expect to see many changes to the squad.

 

In fact i think it's safe to say that it will be Mads, rico, faes, vesty, doyle, winks, kdh & ndidi - with the only doubts being the front three - personally i think this is a game for vardy, we'll probably have less possession than normal and more space to counter quickly over the top (more like how we played against liverpool).  The last two might come down to who he prefers in such a situation and how they show up in the next two weeks.

 

I highly doubt we'll see casadei start, when ndidi actually makes sense to put some pressure on their possession game, and he's not going to risk mcateer for kdh, given he's yet to play that position at this level.

 

[sbfox]

2 hours ago, Dames said:

Ah you’re one of those. Got it. 

I mean you're ignoring objective reality. The system Maresca plays isn't just 'tucking in a full back', or knocking it sideways like Rogers.