Climate Change - a poll

[leicsmac]

1 hour ago, Trav Le Bleu said:

I think something else would finish us off before that.

 

Though that adds another point to what I was saying before. The provision of water, one of the most basic requirements for life, is a resource for wealth. I.E. shareholders>infrastructure.

 

That it requires charity to provide people with clean water in certain countries is damning of humankind.

Water, for drinking and crop providence, will become a massive flash point in the near future unless measures are taken.

 

People think there is a refugee crisis now... imagine a billion plus people in equatorial regions who will no longer have sources of food and potable water. And that might be just the start of the upheaval.

 

As per above, we as a species have the power to solve these problems. So do what we can to ensure that we do.

Edited 29 July by leicsmac

[Trav Le Bleu]

42 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

Water, for drinking and crop providence, will become a massive flash point in the near future unless measures are taken.

 

People think there is a refugee crisis now... imagine a billion plus people in equatorial regions who will no longer have sources of food and potable water. And that might be just the start of the upheaval.

 

As per above, we as a species have the power to solve these problems. So do what we can to ensure that we do.

But there's no money in it.

 

So we won't.

 

Depressing, isn't it?

[leicsmac]

Just now, Trav Le Bleu said:

But there's no money in it.

 

So we won't.

 

Depressing, isn't it?

It is.

 

But the day folks give up is the day that we truly are screwed. So don't.

[Trav Le Bleu]

1 minute ago, leicsmac said:

It is.

 

But the day folks give up is the day that we truly are screwed. So don't.

It's crazy. Wealth, when it comes down to it, is illusory. For most people, it's just numbers on a screen. What is more, that illusion can disappear in a snap.

 

So keeping your big numbers on the screen or the big numbers of actual people who would benefit from those big numbers and therefore not physically arriving on your doorstep begging for help.

 

[leicsmac]

22 minutes ago, Trav Le Bleu said:

It's crazy. Wealth, when it comes down to it, is illusory. For most people, it's just numbers on a screen. What is more, that illusion can disappear in a snap.

 

So keeping your big numbers on the screen or the big numbers of actual people who would benefit from those big numbers and therefore not physically arriving on your doorstep begging for help.

 

Exactly so.

 

Also, people have no idea just how complex (and sensitive to disruption) the mechanics of civilisation are. As a species, we're just a weeks worth of missed meals from Mad Max.

[Kisnorbo fox]

4 hours ago, leicsmac said:

Glad to hear from you guys.

 

Tbf China are beginning to turn things around (last year they installed more solar panels than the USA has done over its entire history), but other places like India and Russia need to step up, rapidly.

 

We do need to try, all of us, and I wish people would become more involved and view this as a priority issue and do what they can (involvement in the policymaking process regarding it, for instance) wherever they can, because it's the only way we might avoid a very dark future. People need to fight the good fight, rather than fatalistic acceptance of bad times to come, because that outlook only guarantees such an outcome.

 

I do agree with you about the acts of JSO being counterproductive. It really doesn't help. But rather than talk about that, I wish people would talk about what would work.

 

 

That's pretty astute, yes.

 

But everyone does need to fight the good fight, as per above. It would be deeply sad to be remembered by what remains of humanity as the ones who destroyed pretty much everything that came before them.

 

Do what you can, where you can. No matter how small.

Yeah i understand what you’re saying in regards to my response. In answer to your question about what I think would work, i suppose I am at the hands of the information, research statistics and scientific findings i am able to read/watch. It’s definitely a serious topic, however all I really do to help matters is doing the simple things right ? Such as recycling, not being wasteful

of resources, lift sharing if possible etc. As I’ve said previously, I’m not massively clued up on this particular subject. 

[leicsmac]

54 minutes ago, Kisnorbo fox said:

Yeah i understand what you’re saying in regards to my response. In answer to your question about what I think would work, i suppose I am at the hands of the information, research statistics and scientific findings i am able to read/watch. It’s definitely a serious topic, however all I really do to help matters is doing the simple things right ? Such as recycling, not being wasteful

of resources, lift sharing if possible etc. As I’ve said previously, I’m not massively clued up on this particular subject. 

You are doing the right things, yes.

 

In addition, more indirect action would work - if you can, lobby your MP and vote to push along green projects in Parliament, and to get foreign policy priorities for pushing other nations to do the same. Again, it may seem small, but lots of people doing the same would have an effect.

 

Additionally, people are talking about difficult refugee issues on the AITN thread now - climate change will make that an order of magnitude, several orders of magnitude, worse. Do the people worried about such issues really want that? Do they really feel it would be a morally acceptable time to close things up and watch hundreds of millions of people die? Would that death toll (and that's the lowest estimate) really have no indirect or direct effect on the UK anyway?

 

Unless one is a sadist who is OK with the thought of a vast amount of "foreigners" dying, then doing what one can to allay this issue before it gets to a truly consequential stage should be a priority for anyone concerned about immigration policy.

Edited 29 July by leicsmac

[Sly]

Ultimate true wealth is health. 
 

Big Corporations continue to spin PR and green wash, then will still take minimal action to reduce greenhouse gas emissions and their carbon footprint, as they ultimately have to satisfy shareholders, who strive on year for year improvement in profit margins.

 

Going greener comes at a cost, one that companies and people aren’t willing to accept as it ultimately the majority think short term. 

 

I’ve sat in so many construction meetings and we’ve discussed greener or reduced carbon options for projects. Ultimately they add millions to projects, as everyone is trying to profiteer on it. 
 

If people were truly serious about it, then it wouldn’t even be a question, or be more expensive in the first place. 

[leicsmac]

Just now, Sly said:

Ultimate true wealth is health. 
 

Big Corporations continue to spin PR and green wash, then will still take minimal action to reduce greenhouse gas emissions and their carbon footprint, as they ultimately have to satisfy shareholders, who strive on year for year improvement in profit margins.

 

Going greener comes at a cost, one that companies and people aren’t willing to accept as it ultimately the majority think short term. 

 

I’ve sat in so many construction meetings and we’ve discussed greener or reduced carbon options for projects. Ultimately they add millions to projects, as everyone is trying to profiteer on it. 
 

If people were truly serious about it, then it wouldn’t even be a question, or be more expensive in the first place. 

There are far too many people not taking it seriously enough, yes.

 

But one way or another, there needs to be a way for enough people with the power to act to take it seriously. Otherwise we're simply accepting at best the deaths of hundreds of millions of and at worst the downfall of human civilisation itself on a timeline in our own lifetime as a fait accompli.

 

Which is, needless to say, unacceptable to anyone with a conscience.

[Sly]

5 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

There are far too many people not taking it seriously enough, yes.

 

But one way or another, there needs to be a way for enough people with the power to act to take it seriously. Otherwise we're simply accepting at best the deaths of hundreds of millions of and at worst the downfall of human civilisation itself on a timeline in our own lifetime as a fait accompli.

 

Which is, needless to say, unacceptable to anyone with a conscience.

Nature will always repair itself, as that what it does.
 

What we don’t know, is how much of civilisation as we’ll know it will be left to write the story. 

[leicsmac]

2 minutes ago, Sly said:

Nature will always repair itself, as that what it does.
 

What we don’t know, is how much of civilisation as we’ll know it will be left to write the story. 

Without a doubt. It has recovered from comparable events before.

 

But it would be a truly sad thing to have that be the legacy of our species, and if things go sideways and anyone is left, I would hope they hold everyone who either wouldn't bother or thought it was an "inevitability" in the lowest, lowest possible contempt - and if any of those people were left, hold them accountable in the harshest possible way.

[ozleicester]

Placing the blame and responsibility on individuals is half the reason we arent progressing.

 

[leicsmac]

6 hours ago, ozleicester said:

Placing the blame and responsibility on individuals is half the reason we arent progressing.

 

I think I get where you're driving at here mate, but I'm not 100% certain, so would you elaborate if you wish to?

[Sly]

5 hours ago, ozleicester said:

Placing the blame and responsibility on individuals is half the reason we arent progressing.

 

It’s a collective responsibility to a degree. 
 

Unfortunately this is also half the reason it will continue to get worse before it gets better, as we can’t get everyone on the same page. 
 

Countries like China have actually made large steps forward, although they still have a long way to go. Some bizarre countries when you look at the amount of carbon generated by head. Canada and Finland need to do more. 
 

 

[ozleicester]

7 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

I think I get where you're driving at here mate, but I'm not 100% certain, so would you elaborate if you wish to?

Its like blaming a water shortage on bob down the roads dripping tap.



 

[leicsmac]

1 minute ago, ozleicester said:

Its like blaming a water shortage on bob down the roads dripping tap.



 

If the point here is that other entities and individuals with more power share the lions share of the responsibility, then I agree. However for me the best way (and possibly the only way that is truly effective over time) to hold those powerful entities to account in a democratic society is through individuals leading with their vote and their wallet, if they can.

[Daggers]

16 hours ago, Wymsey said:

Do wonder sometimes if the country will, at some point, run out of water in particular, once the population reaches a high point.

One of the reasons migrants move north...and will only become more of a problem for Europe. 

 

And nothing will change because idiots love easy solutions over painful ones.

 

I don't like the protests - I'm buggered if I can think of any alternative to making people stop, think and act.

[leicsmac]

1 minute ago, Daggers said:

One of the reasons migrants move north...and will only become more of a problem for Europe. 

 

And nothing will change because idiots love easy solutions over painful ones.

 

I don't like the protests - I'm buggered if I can think of any alternative to making people stop, think and act.

Nor do I, for pretty much the same reason - if their purpose is to get public opinion in favour of the action they want then what they are doing now is totally counterproductive. It's reasonably obvious that negative reinforcement of that type (as opposed to positive) is only really effective when you have much more power than they do.

 

But, at the same time, like you, I think the current positive reinforcement alternatives that are happening are not effective enough and are too slow, so I'm buggered to think what would be effective either, short of a bunch of the guys storming a nuclear launch control centre, getting the launch codes and holding the world to ransom for the next few decades.

[ozleicester]

https://www.livescience.com/16153-10-significant-political-protests.html

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poll_tax_riots

Just a couple in the last 10 years.. in Australia.... If not for protests, Refugees would still be being tortured on foreign islands, Marriage equality wouldnt exist.

Edited 30 July by ozleicester

[Bazly]

I enjoyed a wonderful holiday in May this year where for three consecutive days we had 13C max daytime temperatures and lots of near horizontal rain, all as we were all enduring the hottest ever May on record.

Edited 30 July by Bazly

[Sly]

21 minutes ago, Daggers said:

One of the reasons migrants move north...and will only become more of a problem for Europe. 

 

And nothing will change because idiots love easy solutions over painful ones.

 

I don't like the protests - I'm buggered if I can think of any alternative to making people stop, think and act.

I don’t agree with the approach just stop oil takes to be honest. In fact, at times their action really annoy me. 
 

However, whilst they themselves have an awful name, they have achieved more than most in terms of getting the conversation going. 
 

I think we can all agree that we are currently heading in one direction and that more needs to be done. 
 

I agree that other people, countries etc can do more and need to be held accountable. Ultimately, I see that us small folk do, adds a little bit more time saving against that ticking time bomb. The more of us that do it, the more time we put back in the bank. 

[Sly]

2 minutes ago, Bazly said:

I enjoyed a wonderful holiday in May this year where for three consecutive days we had 13C max daytime temperatures and lots of near horizontal rain, all as we were all enduring the hottest ever May on record.

Oh, I can relate to this. 
 

Whilst the UK was sat basking in its hottest day ever a few years ago, I was sat on a beach in Mauritius, with it peeing it down with rain 

[ozleicester]

Just now, Sly said:

Oh, I can relate to this. 
 

Whilst the UK was sat basking in its hottest day ever a few years ago, I was sat on a beach in Mauritius, with it peeing it down with rain 

Its almost like.. climate is changing

[leicsmac]

5 minutes ago, ozleicester said:

https://www.livescience.com/16153-10-significant-political-protests.html

Just a couple in the last 10 years.. in Australia.... If not for protests, Refugees would still be being tortured on foreign islands, Marriage equality wouldnt exist.

And a suffragette throwing themselves in front of the Kings horse did a great deal for that conversation, too.

 

But such things cannot and do not alone turn the wheel. Those decisions were, in the end, brought to fruition by policy decisions driven by public opinion brought about in a mostly less dramatic manner.

 

I do understand the argument here, but forgive me when I get frustrated at reasoned scientific voices being ignored because groups like JSO have taken all the oxygen in the conversation and, rightly or wrongly, provided a (maybe temporary) boogeyman to be used as a convenient excuse to ignore the topic.

 

Perhaps a mix of both might end up doing the trick. The Civil Rights Movement in the US needed the acts of Martin Luther King and Malcolm X, after all.

[leicsmac]

11 minutes ago, Sly said:

I don’t agree with the approach just stop oil takes to be honest. In fact, at times their action really annoy me. 
 

However, whilst they themselves have an awful name, they have achieved more than most in terms of getting the conversation going. 
 

I think we can all agree that we are currently heading in one direction and that more needs to be done. 
 

I agree that other people, countries etc can do more and need to be held accountable. Ultimately, I see that us small folk do, adds a little bit more time saving against that ticking time bomb. The more of us that do it, the more time we put back in the bank. 

Exactly this. And every single minute of time we can use may be useful.