Vestergaard

[fuchsntf]

On 17/12/2023 at 03:49, JJD_LCFC said:

Whatever opinion that we have on `Vestegaard, as a team we have only conceded 14 goals in 21 games. Jannik has played every game and a huge part of our successful defence. Contrast to last season this is another huge turnaround that Maresca has provided for our team. 

Although, personally I am not Jannik's biggest fan, I would rather see Souttar in this position, just my opinion. I think we have more of an upside with Souttar playing, give him time to develop this season, threat in both penalty boxes, has a longer contract + resale value in the future, and I think he has done well when he plays for us. Jannik's passing is either great or poor. and I just think he is personally caught out too often. For example the Sheff Wed goal Jannik missed Hendrick's run across him, and any 1v1 situations he struggles with. Jannik was marginalised last year at the club, and deserves a lot of credit for turning his form around. 

I reckon Vestergaard is one of the goto generals for Enzo,to goto..

Plus one sees Enzo’s idea,in in tactic in using Vesty Mads,Faes to release in the last moment the ball,and repetative use that cagey triangle…

 

I really don’t know if Doyle changes that tempo,later when he comes back..

Might be also misreading it,but over these last 3-4 games, I reckon 

both Justin,and Mavadidi get often annoyed with Vertergaards ponderence.

 

Maybe @StriderHiryu could give better feedback.ß

 

 

[fuchsntf]

50 minutes ago, coolhandfox said:

Amount of people call players out who are part of the best defence in the league and currently the best ever points total in the league.

 

Glass half empty.

 

Feels like people are waiting for some players to make a mistake so they can say I told you so.

After a good nights turn around,insight to Teams capabilities,we see for me too often frustrating type of posts, demanding more..

Some can’t get it in their thick noddles…This season is the first time we see across the board a totally new set & system,that WORKING, and envious fans and managers,that are struggling with this clubs success,but at least they are positive about it.

Though we needed this rebuild & developement,so many home fans  ( minority still) are so gobsmacked they are determined to pick holes. Weird stance for own fans.

Inderstandable if we were passing around and misfiring lingering around 8-12 position,even worse 12-24th…

But Nope …Top of the tree,breaking all records being broken, Enzo his staff,his squad,loved by all & sundry,but apparently some local beölend,want to show they

of course know better… 

[StriderHiryu]

1 hour ago, fuchsntf said:

 

Maybe @StriderHiryu could give better feedback.ß

 

 

Vestergaard in this system is seriously underrated by all of our fans. Statistically he’s outrageous and is a genuine contender for the Championship player of the season. I wouldn’t go that far but he’s making more passes in games than some entire teams, making key passes, scoring goals and we still have comfortably the best defence in the division. 
 

In this position it seems like you need a skill set closer to a deep lying playmaker rather than a CB. Jannik started his career as a CDM but got moved back. We know he’s slow and immobile so playing with your back to goal in tight spaces was an issue for him whereas it’s not for say Harry Winks. However, when the game is in front of him, his ability to read the game, understand the flow and game state is top notch. Honestly I would struggle to think of many CBs even in the Premier League with that skill set so that’s why he’ll easily be Enzo’s preferred option. 
 

Defensively Vestergaard has issues. Yesterday the most concerning one was getting beaten in the air by Bielik for me. But our team is similar to Man City where players like Ake, Stones and Akanji have defensive frailties but are so good on the ball that overall they are worth their weight in gold. 

[Finnegan]

1 minute ago, StriderHiryu said:

Vestergaard in this system is seriously underrated by all of our fans. Statistically he’s outrageous and is a genuine contender for the Championship player of the season. I wouldn’t go that far but he’s making more passes in games than some entire teams, making key passes, scoring goals and we still have comfortably the best defence in the division. 
 

In this position it seems like you need a skill set closer to a deep lying playmaker rather than a CB. Jannik started his career as a CDM but got moved back. We know he’s slow and immobile so playing with your back to goal in tight spaces was an issue for him whereas it’s not for say Harry Winks. However, when the game is in front of him, his ability to read the game, understand the flow and game state is top notch. Honestly I would struggle to think of many CBs even in the Premier League with that skill set so that’s why he’ll easily be Enzo’s preferred option. 
 

Defensively Vestergaard has issues. Yesterday the most concerning one was getting beaten in the air by Bielik for me. But our team is similar to Man City where players like Ake, Stones and Akanji have defensive frailties but are so good on the ball that overall they are worth their weight in gold. 

 

I find a lot of the "we'll never get away with playing like this next year!" comments to be absurdly premature and probably a little bit overly pessimistic. I think we'd outplay most of the bottom half of the Prem with a few sensible reinforcements and I'm not overly concerned about the future (especially when I see quality counter attacking in games like Birmingham, Southampton, Norwich, etc.)

 

But I am worried about Vestergaard next year. He's absolutely integral to our success in attack but all of the things that make him stand out this year are what we and he do in possession. The times he's looked the worst are still defensively. I don't think it's overly cruel to say he should have stopped two or three (at least) of the goals we've shipped in the last few games alone.

 

He can be our Stones or our Akanji at this level, its fine, we have the same luxury that Man City do in that we can afford to play a CB that's defensively questionable because the rest of the team are superb. The nature of our defensive shape means there's always two or three other people around to quickly recover and support him, too. 

 

But its going to be a big ask stepping up a level and having to carry him defensively again, especially when Faes (probably our best actual defender this year) still has a big point to prove in the Prem, Coady is going to be getting pretty old, Doyle if we get him back will be new to that level, etc. Going to need a smart, Fofanaesque bit of recruitment at CB I think to find that bit of X factor to steady it all up.

 

[Always Next Year]

1 minute ago, Finnegan said:

 

I find a lot of the "we'll never get away with playing like this next year!" comments to be absurdly premature and probably a little bit overly pessimistic. I think we'd outplay most of the bottom half of the Prem with a few sensible reinforcements and I'm not overly concerned about the future (especially when I see quality counter attacking in games like Birmingham, Southampton, Norwich, etc.)

 

But I am worried about Vestergaard next year. He's absolutely integral to our success in attack but all of the things that make him stand out this year are what we and he do in possession. The times he's looked the worst are still defensively. I don't think it's overly cruel to say he should have stopped two or three (at least) of the goals we've shipped in the last few games alone.

 

He can be our Stones or our Akanji at this level, its fine, we have the same luxury that Man City do in that we can afford to play a CB that's defensively questionable because the rest of the team are superb. The nature of our defensive shape means there's always two or three other people around to quickly recover and support him, too. 

 

But its going to be a big ask stepping up a level and having to carry him defensively again, especially when Faes (probably our best actual defender this year) still has a big point to prove in the Prem, Coady is going to be getting pretty old, Doyle if we get him back will be new to that level, etc. Going to need a smart, Fofanaesque bit of recruitment at CB I think to find that bit of X factor to steady it all up.

 

Not good enough for the prem never has been found his level in the championship 

[Finnegan]

Just now, Always Next Year said:

Not good enough for the prem never has been found his level in the championship 

 

See this is what I don't 100% agree with.

 

I agree with Strider, the things he's good at, he's VERY good at. I'd go so far as to say that, for a centre back, his touch, his dribbling (amazingly), his passing, his awareness of space, his reading of the game are all genuinely world class. If he had a bit more pace he wouldn't actually look out of place at Man City, where the expectations on him to defend for any great length of time would be small.

 

He's not found a place in the team because we've been relegated, in my opinion, he's found his place because we've got a new manager that's given him a different job, one he has the skillset for. Just posted something similar in the Patson Daka thread, I think people need to look past traditional understandings of some positions and accept that Maresca is looking for a 'skillset' more than just "CB", "ST", "DM", "RB", etc. Vestergaard has that skillset.

 

But I do agree - and I've just said as much - that if we get promoted he's going to need a better collective defence around him if we're going to keep carrying his defensive weaknesses. 

 

Like I said, nuance. 

[Always Next Year]

2 hours ago, Finnegan said:

 

See this is what I don't 100% agree with.

 

I agree with Strider, the things he's good at, he's VERY good at. I'd go so far as to say that, for a centre back, his touch, his dribbling (amazingly), his passing, his awareness of space, his reading of the game are all genuinely world class. If he had a bit more pace he wouldn't actually look out of place at Man City, where the expectations on him to defend for any great length of time would be small.

 

He's not found a place in the team because we've been relegated, in my opinion, he's found his place because we've got a new manager that's given him a different job, one he has the skillset for. Just posted something similar in the Patson Daka thread, I think people need to look past traditional understandings of some positions and accept that Maresca is looking for a 'skillset' more than just "CB", "ST", "DM", "RB", etc. Vestergaard has that skillset.

 

But I do agree - and I've just said as much - that if we get promoted he's going to need a better collective defence around him if we're going to keep carrying his defensive weaknesses. 

 

Like I said, nuance. 

Agree with you 100% wouldn’t look out of place at Man City, in the boot room or mopping the shower floor 😂😂

[bmt]

2 hours ago, Finnegan said:

 

I find a lot of the "we'll never get away with playing like this next year!" comments to be absurdly premature and probably a little bit overly pessimistic. I think we'd outplay most of the bottom half of the Prem with a few sensible reinforcements and I'm not overly concerned about the future (especially when I see quality counter attacking in games like Birmingham, Southampton, Norwich, etc.)

 

But I am worried about Vestergaard next year. He's absolutely integral to our success in attack but all of the things that make him stand out this year are what we and he do in possession. The times he's looked the worst are still defensively. I don't think it's overly cruel to say he should have stopped two or three (at least) of the goals we've shipped in the last few games alone.

 

He can be our Stones or our Akanji at this level, its fine, we have the same luxury that Man City do in that we can afford to play a CB that's defensively questionable because the rest of the team are superb. The nature of our defensive shape means there's always two or three other people around to quickly recover and support him, too. 

 

But its going to be a big ask stepping up a level and having to carry him defensively again, especially when Faes (probably our best actual defender this year) still has a big point to prove in the Prem, Coady is going to be getting pretty old, Doyle if we get him back will be new to that level, etc. Going to need a smart, Fofanaesque bit of recruitment at CB I think to find that bit of X factor to steady it all up.

 

Agree - I actually think we will do well against most of the lower half/mid table teams as they will attack us and, provided we get a bit more quality in next to Vestergaard, we should be able to break them down as we do this year. But against the teams who are 8th and higher where we can't dominate the game he would get torn a new one, so need to have a proper plan B.

[Chelmofox]

2 hours ago, Always Next Year said:

Not good enough for the prem never has been found his level in the championship 

I don't agree. He is arguably one of the stand out performers in the Championship.  He has the abilities to play in both divisions under this system. Life for him will undoubtedly harder in the PL and we should seek longer term reinforcements. 

[Chelmofox]

3 hours ago, StriderHiryu said:

Vestergaard in this system is seriously underrated by all of our fans. Statistically he’s outrageous and is a genuine contender for the Championship player of the season. I wouldn’t go that far but he’s making more passes in games than some entire teams, making key passes, scoring goals and we still have comfortably the best defence in the division. 
 

In this position it seems like you need a skill set closer to a deep lying playmaker rather than a CB. Jannik started his career as a CDM but got moved back. We know he’s slow and immobile so playing with your back to goal in tight spaces was an issue for him whereas it’s not for say Harry Winks. However, when the game is in front of him, his ability to read the game, understand the flow and game state is top notch. Honestly I would struggle to think of many CBs even in the Premier League with that skill set so that’s why he’ll easily be Enzo’s preferred option. 
 

Defensively Vestergaard has issues. Yesterday the most concerning one was getting beaten in the air by Bielik for me. But our team is similar to Man City where players like Ake, Stones and Akanji have defensive frailties but are so good on the ball that overall they are worth their weight in gold. 

Do you think we should offer an extension to his deal which expires in the Summer.

[Daggers]

Most people have an issue with him because they don’t understand the football we play despite it being slowly pointed out to them. They yearn for traditional roles and wing-based counter attacks.

 

If people haven’t begun to switch their perspective by now then there’s no point discussing stuff further with them - they’ll never get it. 

[Always Next Year]

29 minutes ago, Chelmofox said:

Do you think we should offer an extension to his deal which expires in the Summer.

 

29 minutes ago, Chelmofox said:

Do you think we should offer an extension to his deal which expires in the Summer.

 

9 minutes ago, Daggers said:

Most people have an issue with him because they don’t understand the football we play despite it being slowly pointed out to them. They yearn for traditional roles and wing-based counter attacks.

 

If people haven’t begun to switch their perspective by now then there’s no point discussing stuff further with them - they’ll never get it. 

Its amazing how many on here jump back and forth over the fence when it comes to Vestergaard 

[Daggers]

1 minute ago, Always Next Year said:

 

 

Its amazing how many on here jump back and forth over the fence when it comes to Vestergaard 

Show me where I have. Clue: I haven’t. 
 

He was shit last season for multiple reasons.
The reasons became apparent and understandable.

He adjusted quickly to the new system.

He proved himself integral to the new system.

I’ve given him nothing but praise for that. 
 

 

[Foxy DK]

1 minute ago, Always Next Year said:

 

 

Its amazing how many on here jump back and forth over the fence when it comes to Vestergaard 

What’s amazing is your eagerness to dump one-liners instead of debating. I’m genuinely curious - how can we know that he wouldn’t make it in the prem when he’s played there and in the Bundesliga for years and are doing well now?

[SouthStandUpperTier]

His career goals against per 90 in the Bundesliga is 1.62.

 

In the PL it's 1.61.

 

That would equate to approximately 61 goals conceded over a 38 game season.

 

I like the guy and it's been a nice redemption story. But it's been proven that he's not a particularly solid defender at top-flight level. And I doubt he's going to get any better now he's over 30.

 

Edited 19 December 2023 by SouthStandUpperTier

[JimJams]

These 1 man defences are probably not the way forward.

[Jonezy]

His passing is absurd for a CB and key to our approach. 

[Marshall Cockney Fox]

I will repeatedly applaud his distribution skills. As he plays the quarter back passing role extremely well. Which suits us perfectly in this current champ season. But I won't be swayed into believing he can cope with Premiership/world class strikers. That ship sailed a long time ago. 

[Dahnsouff]

16 minutes ago, SouthStandUpperTier said:

His career goals against per 90 in the Bundesliga is 1.62.

 

In the PL it's 1.61.

 

That would equate to approximately 61 goals conceded over a 38 game season.

 

I like the guy and it's been a nice redemption story. But it's been proven that he's not a particularly solid defender at top-flight level. And I doubt he's going to get any better now he's over 30.

 

Are you seriously offsetting this season with his time at Southampton or in the Bundesliga 

Stats are super useful, but even they need context.

[Dahnsouff]

1 hour ago, Chelmofox said:

Do you think we should offer an extension to his deal which expires in the Summer.

Personally, no.

[Finnegan]

45 minutes ago, Always Next Year said:

 

 

Its amazing how many on here jump back and forth over the fence when it comes to Vestergaard 

 

I wouldn't say people are jumping back and forth. He was very poor, he's turned it around under a new manager and people are acknowledging that. 

 

The ability to change your opinion on something is a trait we should value a lot more in people. 

 

Stubbornly sticking to your opinion in the face of overwhelming evidence isn't commendable it's fvcking stupid. 

 

[StriderHiryu]

2 hours ago, Chelmofox said:

Do you think we should offer an extension to his deal which expires in the Summer.

If he accepts a 2 year deal then yes.

 

A good question for everyone out there, who do you sign as his replacement?! CBs to play his position are few and far between. The best in the league at the moment is Lewis Dunk for Brighton in terms of a like-for-like comparison, and we won't be able to sign him.

 

 

I'm sure we can find a player good enough to do what Vestergaard is doing but who is also good defensively, but it will take them time to get used to our style of play. Vestergaard has gotten better and better as the season has gone on, and that's why he's cemented his position in the team. So for that reason I think we have to keep Jannik and then try and get his understudy / rotation option into the club.

 

We thought Coady would be the one to play this role as he was the one that started out that way in the first ever friendly we saw on TV. But Coady himself was suspect in the Premier League and hasn't been as good on the ball as Vestergaard yet. So it might be that we sign another CB anyway, even if Jannik stays on.

 

 

[Jimmy]

I wouldn't extend him I'd be looking for someone younger and quicker that can replace him in the summer, there was a reason we signed Coady who was known for his ball playing in the middle of Wolves back 3, fair play to Vestergaard for keeping him out since his injury but its not like Enzo came in thinking Vestergaard would be key to this system he probably thought he was out the door until Coady broke his foot in that pre season game

[Chelmofox]

2 minutes ago, Jimmy said:

I wouldn't extend him I'd be looking for someone younger and quicker that can replace him in the summer, there was a reason we signed Coady who was known for his ball playing in the middle of Wolves back 3, fair play to Vestergaard for keeping him out since his injury but its not like Enzo came in thinking Vestergaard would be key to this system he probably thought he was out the door until Coady broke his foot in that pre season game

But Enzo keeps picking Vestergaard over Coady.  If that continues to be the case through the 2nd half of the season it would seem mad not to renew him. I think its very likely he would have a resale value as well.

[Chrysalis]

Assuming things carry on as is for rest of season, the sound thing would be to let coady go in the summer (assuming faes also stays), sign a new CB, let Vesty start in the EPL, but if it doesnt work out then the new signing is thrown in.