The "do they mean us?" thread pt 4

[dmayne7]

11 minutes ago, Sampson said:

See this is what I’m talking about. It’s mad that enough when neutrals repeat it, even madder when Leicester fans do it. Kante was not on “another level” than Vardy or Mahrez and neither did he “transform” us more than either them or our defensive changes we made after the Arsenal game. Plenty of games that season were incredibly tight games where we had little possession and ground it out with incredibly disciplined performances from all 11 players which were then won simply by one player being in the right place at the right time, often by the so called “lesser” players even like Ulloa, after, Huth or Morgan.
 

He was a great player but making out he was this cut above transformational player is so disrespectful to the likes of Mahrez, Vardy, Morgan and the rest,. I mean I remember us being under pressure all game by Spurs for 90 minutes but Morgan and Huth being incredible and then Huth coming up with a last minute header. Similarly I remember disciplined performed vs Palace (home and away), Watford, Sunderland, Southampton, Bournemouth (home and away), West Brom, West Ham, Chelsea, Everton, ManUtd (home and away) Liverpool just off the top of my head where we won or drew by one or two moments from nothing by the likes of Vardy, Mahrez, Morgan, Ulloa, Drinkwater or whoever else. 

 

Kind of think him leaving when our players all looked emotionally spent the following season kind of retroactively added to his legend somewhat as people started saying “see, you’re just relegation strugglers without him”. Never mind that Mahrez and Vardy proved themselves plenty as incredible players in the years since. 
 

If there was one genuinely most transformative personnel change in that season it was bringing Fuchs and Simpson into the back 4 for Schlupp and De Laet after the Arsenal game. Which happened several games after that Bournemouth game.

I'm not taking away from the others. All good players who peaked at the right time and were superb in that system. Couldn't have won it without any of them, especially Vardy or Mahrez. But he's the only player I've seen, where it took literally 5 mins for me to see just how freakishly good he was and that was from a couple of tackles! Then watched him for France in the Euros that summer and couldn't believe we had the best midfielder in the world playing for us (for about 2 more days ha).

 

It's of course a massive over simplification to say that we were crap because he left, given the other factors at play. But if you are simplifying it, look at our position before and after he left, look at Chelsea's before he came and then when he arrived. Look at what he did to the likes of Drinkwater, Matic and Jorginho. So much worse without him. He's won the PL, CL and the world cup as a key player in all those teams.

 

I wasn't, and I don't think others are, trying to say that we only won the PL because of him because there were so many collosal performances in there. But that doesn't mean he wasn't irreplaceable. I've never seen a player do what he did and haven't since. If you were Chelsea and had the ability to replace any of our other players from that team, you could find an adequate replacement. But not for Kante.

[Steve Earle]

4 hours ago, honeybradger said:

Haaland himself said vardy was the best in the world at making runs behind the opponent's defence. Vardy is the only englishman to get a top 10 ballon d'or finish in the last 10 years. Pep Guardiola said he was one of the best strikers he has seen (although his word isnt always to be trusted). Aguero called Vardy a 'phenomenon'. Suarez, arguably the best striker of the 2010s, asked Vardy for his shirt after our friendly against Barcelona. 

 

I think the opinions of some of the best strikers in recent years might be worth something. You wont find similar quotes for strikers like Morata, Werner or Aubameyang.

Belllingham klaxon incoming!

[Lillehamring]

15 hours ago, don_danbury said:

probably because he was so successful since leaving, so they'd see him as our most important player that season. vardy, kante and mahrez were the 3 world class players that season tho.

nah, even before he'd played a game for chelsea it started.  

[Lillehamring]

15 hours ago, Jon the Hat said:

I don't think we would have won it without him, which is slightly different.  I think people say that because he came in that season and then left, whereas those others who we would not have won it without stuck around a bit longer, and other than Mahrez did not go on to win it again.

But based on the 'whole being stronger than the component parts' theory, you could say that about anyone, so it's true by default. I'm not saying he hasn't become one of, if not the most successful members of that squad, i'm just whining about the fact that the moment he went to chelsea the narrative flipped from him being 'one of the whole that was stronger than it's component parts'  (certainly less important than mahrez or vardy), to 'we only won it because we had kante'.

[Babylon]

58 minutes ago, dmayne7 said:

Took 5 mins of him coming on against Bournemouth and winning the ball in a way I'd never seen before.

 

At his peak, and used properly (i.e. not as a holding midfielder because anybody who describes him as that has never seen him play or they just don't understand football), he's by far and away the best player I've seen play for us. I'm quite liberal in my use of world class but Vardy, Mahrez and Ricardo are players I'd have called world class at their best, but Kante was on another level. Transformed us and look at what he did to Chelsea. If it wasn't for injuries and maybe a bit more time, he'd probably be in the conversation for best ever PL midfielder such was his effect on his team.

 

I'm talking about pundits who weren't really watching us other than highlights. Obviously, to the fans, it was pretty instant. 

[Lillehamring]

15 hours ago, ClaphamFox said:

I think your memory is serving you poorly. There were plenty of people who realised that Kante was something special from very early on with his time with us. The perception was that having him in the team was the equivalent to having two midfielders, such was his energy and stamina - hence the phrase 'the Kante twins'. Along with Mahrez and Vardy, he was regarded as one of the three players were absolutely essential to our title win. Drinkwater played his part but was nowhere near at Kante's level, and I think most fans could see that at the time.

Not saying my memory is flawless, but during the season i think we can all agree that he was never considered to be the 'only' reason we were playing the way we were playing, whereas from the moment he was playing for a 'proper club' that has increasingly become the narrative.

[James_lcfc]

2 minutes ago, Lillehamring said:

But based on the 'whole being stronger than the component parts' theory, you could say that about anyone, so it's true by default. I'm not saying he hasn't become one of, if not the most successful members of that squad, i'm just whining about the fact that the moment he went to chelsea the narrative flipped from him being 'one of the whole that was stronger than it's component parts'  (certainly less important than mahrez or vardy), to 'we only won it because we had kante'.

Are you just referring to the media and wider football world though?

 

Our fans were waxing lyrical about him being unbelievable extremely early. As another poster mentioned - When he came on against Bournemouth away, you could tell there was something different about him...and he played left wing IIRC!

[Lillehamring]

6 hours ago, James_lcfc said:

Very much this.

 

We had two genuinely world class players in our team that year - Which isn't something I've ever seen before or since. (I didn't start going to games until '92 before anyone starts!)

 

Other players have done much more for the club, of course they have, but Kante was the best I've seen play for us.

Be that as it may be, the point is, unlike the current inclination to believe in the media, he wasn't the only reason we won the league.

It isn't about his quality as a player, it's about his contribution and he contributed as much as players like morgan and simpson who, honestly, aren't the best defenders the premier league has ever seen by any stretch of the imagination, nowhere near the quality of a kante, mahrez or vardy - but it wasn't about the quality of individuals, it was about the quality as a team.

[HighPeakFox]

Can we argue about our strangely silent miserable fans instead? This is getting boring....

[Lillehamring]

5 hours ago, honeybradger said:

Haaland himself said vardy was the best in the world at making runs behind the opponent's defence. Vardy is the only englishman to get a top 10 ballon d'or finish in the last 10 years. Pep Guardiola said he was one of the best strikers he has seen (although his word isnt always to be trusted). Aguero called Vardy a 'phenomenon'. Suarez, arguably the best striker of the 2010s, asked Vardy for his shirt after our friendly against Barcelona. 

 

I think the opinions of some of the best strikers in recent years might be worth something. You wont find similar quotes for strikers like Morata, Werner or Aubameyang.

He's probably have won it if he'd gone to a 'proper club' in 2016.  Couldn't have a leicester player anywhere near that award 

[Lillehamring]

4 hours ago, Babylon said:

It took a good 6 or 7 months for people to realise what they were seeing, but they were mostly on the train end of Jan onwards. 

Yes, about how good he was, but not that he 'won it for us'.  subtle difference.

[AjcW]

Guys... we're in the Championship now, should probably move on  

[Stopharage]

5 hours ago, honeybradger said:

Haaland himself said vardy was the best in the world at making runs behind the opponent's defence. Vardy is the only englishman to get a top 10 ballon d'or finish in the last 10 years. Pep Guardiola said he was one of the best strikers he has seen (although his word isnt always to be trusted). Aguero called Vardy a 'phenomenon'. Suarez, arguably the best striker of the 2010s, asked Vardy for his shirt after our friendly against Barcelona. 

 

I think the opinions of some of the best strikers in recent years might be worth something. You wont find similar quotes for strikers like Morata, Werner or Aubameyang.

Kane in 2018. And 2017. 

[Lillehamring]

3 hours ago, Sampson said:

Disagree that you’d have to side with this tbh. Mahrez and Vardy won us more points over the season than Kante imo and ultimately we had the best 2 attacking players in the division and regardless of how good your defence and midfield is, your defence and midfield can only draw you games, your attack wins you games. How many tight games in that season were decided by Mahrez or Vardy pulling something out the bag when it seemed like there was little on?

 

Not taking anything away from Kante who was great that season but I do think people are almost forgetting just how g many games Vardy and Mahrez won us and how rarely Kante was actually involved in setting up counter attacks etc.

Spot on - kante won a lot of possession but so did the defence - for me the most overlooked player that season is drinkwater, as he was so often the trigger for mahrez and vardy - but again, one of many that year who raised their standard.

[James_lcfc]

1 hour ago, Sampson said:

See this is what I’m talking about. It’s mad that enough when neutrals repeat it, even madder when Leicester fans do it. Kante was not on “another level” than Vardy or Mahrez and neither did he “transform” us more than either them or our defensive changes we made after the Arsenal game. Plenty of games that season were incredibly tight games where we had little possession and ground it out with incredibly disciplined performances from all 11 players which were then won simply by one player being in the right place at the right time, often by the so called “lesser” players even like Ulloa, after, Huth or Morgan.
 

He was a great player but making out he was this cut above transformational player is so disrespectful to the likes of Mahrez, Vardy, Morgan and the rest,. I mean I remember us being under pressure all game by Spurs for 90 minutes but Morgan and Huth being incredible and then Huth coming up with a last minute header. Similarly I remember disciplined performed vs Palace (home and away), Watford, Sunderland, Southampton, Bournemouth (home and away), West Brom, West Ham, Chelsea, Everton, ManUtd (home and away) Liverpool just off the top of my head where we won or drew by one or two moments from nothing by the likes of Vardy, Mahrez, Morgan, Ulloa, Drinkwater or whoever else. 

 

Kind of think him leaving when our players all looked emotionally spent the following season kind of retroactively added to his legend somewhat as people started saying “see, you’re just relegation strugglers without him”. Never mind that Mahrez and Vardy proved themselves plenty as incredible players in the years since. 
 

If there was one genuinely most transformative personnel change in that season it was bringing Fuchs and Simpson into the back 4 for Schlupp and De Laet after the Arsenal game. Which happened several games after that Bournemouth game.

Kante was the best player in the team that year.

 

Obviously that's just an opinion, don't expect anyone to agree, but saying it's disrespectful to anyone else is a bit weird.

 

Pretty much every player in the squad was phenomenal.

[Lillehamring]

1 hour ago, Sampson said:

I think the following season would’ve been very similar with or without Kante in it tbh. A lot of our players just looked emotional spent. The likes of Vardy, Mahrez, Morgan, Huth, Fuchs all played significantly below their best the following season compared to what they showed in seasons before and/or after, Kante wouldn’t have changed that. 

Agreed - 15/16 for most of those players was beyond their natural level; the following season they showed in the UCL that they could still play to an amazing standard if the will was there, but in the PL it wasn't - the team settled back to it's natural level, particularly the back four - i guess they had nothing left to prove - even with kante in the middle we'd never have overcome that mindset.

 

The real question is: had he stayed would we have won the champions league?

[honeybradger]

6 minutes ago, Stopharage said:

Kane in 2018. And 2017. 

You are correct,  I dont know where i got that stat from. It might have been that Vardy has the highest Ballon d'or finish out of any englishman in the last 10 years.

[tylesta]

56 minutes ago, TrentFox said:

If they offer a 16.40 service on a Saturday, that would be great ……

16.25

[Lillehamring]

22 minutes ago, James_lcfc said:

Are you just referring to the media and wider football world though?

 

Our fans were waxing lyrical about him being unbelievable extremely early. As another poster mentioned - When he came on against Bournemouth away, you could tell there was something different about him...and he played left wing IIRC!

Yes.  For me it was all a part of the whole pattern of the press from the early patronising days of 'bless em, aren't they doing well', to the 'well, i knew they'd do it all along, i was the first to say so', to the final 'dear god, let that never happen again' -  to have kante playing for chelsea was almost a lifeline for the media to justify how we only won it because we had a chelsea player playing for us.

[Sampson]

24 minutes ago, James_lcfc said:

Kante was the best player in the team that year.

 

Obviously that's just an opinion, don't expect anyone to agree, but saying it's disrespectful to anyone else is a bit weird.

 

Pretty much every player in the squad was phenomenal.

That wasn’t what he said though. He said he was transformative and a level above everyone else including Mahrez and Vardy which is kinda disrespectful to everyone else tbh. No one is arguing that you can’t think Kante was great or even our best player that season (I disagree but I don’t think it’s an outrageous opinion), but there definitely has been a more and more  prelevant narrative in the years since that he won us the league on his own or was a level above the rest of the squad which simply was never true. 

Edited 13 December 2023 by Sampson

[Golden Fox]

1 hour ago, Lillehamring said:

The real question is: had he stayed would we have won the champions league?

Nah - the real question is: had he stayed, how many Champions Leagues would we have won?? 

[fuchsntf]

17 hours ago, ClaphamFox said:

I think your memory is serving you poorly. There were plenty of people who realised that Kante was something special from very early on with his time with us. The perception was that having him in the team was the equivalent to having two midfielders, such was his energy and stamina - hence the phrase 'the Kante twins'. Along with Mahrez and Vardy, he was regarded as one of the three players were absolutely essential to our title win. Drinkwater played his part but was nowhere near at Kante's level, and I think most fans could see that at the time.

I totally agree but it proves those small time misgogs, can leave stains over a forum. Or starts & creates unwitting agendas over players…

Kante was given a solid strong base support,though took some weird hits..

Which in Kings case too much negative over a top club player wafted and stook..in some Posters minds. 

[fuchsntf]

33 minutes ago, Golden Fox said:

Nah - the real question is: had he stayed, how many Champions Leagues would we have won?? 

No not won necessarily..but competed for..!!

But not to be fooled Leicester knew and he himself said 1- max 2 seasons at Leicester or he “ fair enough” said he wouldn’t sign…Chelsea was his aspiration & only target…

His time at Chelsea were probably their best successfull Europe period..

 

I prefer mostly players who commit longer to “my” Club,

 Kante was that 1-4 exceptions we have seen stay for agreed short times.

And I am bloody ecstatic club handled the business,and the little fox played behind the fox badge for HIS time.

I just wish also other legends are also well appreciated..

[coolhandfox]

3 hours ago, Sampson said:

I think the following season would’ve been very similar with or without Kante in it tbh. A lot of our players just looked emotional spent. The likes of Vardy, Mahrez, Morgan, Huth, Fuchs all played significantly below their best the following season compared to what they showed in seasons before and/or after, Kante wouldn’t have changed that. 

They did, but you don't think Kante would have made a difference over Mendy who played 9 games.

 

A Kante who that season was named the PFA Players' Player of the Year, the FWA Footballer of the Year and the Premier League Player of the Season.

 

Interesting.....

 

Personally I think we would have done better then 13th in the league.

Edited 13 December 2023 by coolhandfox

[Lillehamring]

25 minutes ago, fuchsntf said:

I totally agree but it proves those small time misgogs, can leave stains over a forum. Or starts & creates unwitting agendas over players…

Kante was given a solid strong base support,though took some weird hits..

Which in Kings case too much negative over a top club player wafted and stook..in some Posters minds. 

yeah, but we're not talking about perception on FT, we're talking about perception in the media.

The worry is that the stronger the media narrative becomes that Kante essentially won us the league on his own or was a level above the rest of the squad, the more fans will buy into that idea and the brilliance of that season will become distorted and move away from the ultimate TEAM performance that it was.

 

I think most FTers know how things really were.