Also In The News - part 3

[The Guvnor]

2 minutes ago, StanSP said:

I don't disagree at all. I know emotions run high and decisions are made in the heat of the moment, within a split second. 

 

But I think it's fair to mention that these are highly-trained professionals, no doubt experienced in their role. All it takes is a moment of calm, perhaps also a split second, to not kick and stamp on someone's head when they're prone on the floor and not even looking at you, despite what's happened moments before. 

I think everyone agrees that action was not acceptable, ironically he would have been justified to have broken the cnuts arm or leg with a baton strike, and  I’m pretty sure if he could rewind that’s what he would have done.

[Foxdiamond]

6 minutes ago, StanSP said:

I don't disagree at all. I know emotions run high and decisions are made in the heat of the moment, within a split second. 

 

But I think it's fair to mention that these are highly-trained professionals, no doubt experienced in their role. All it takes is a moment of calm, perhaps also a split second, to not kick and stamp on someone's head when they're prone on the floor and not even looking at you, despite what's happened moments before. 

All it takes as you put it rather underplays it I think

[Kisnorbo fox]

1 hour ago, hackneyfox said:

People from right across the political spectrum came out to march against ex BNP member Tommy Robinson and his Muslim hating, anti-vax cronies.

It wasn’t left wing whereas Yaxley Lennon’s was most certainly right wing.

Wasn’t the left wing counter protest lead by that anti-Semitic fool Jeremy corbyn ? 
where during the protests did it state any of them where anti-vax ? How can you be sure it wasn’t left wing counter protesters ? Were you there ? 
Or are you just one of those left wing types who try and shout the loudest and anything that doesn’t fit your agenda must be racist, anti-vax or bigoted ?. 

Edited 28 July by Kisnorbo fox

[MPH]

5 hours ago, Mickyblueeyes said:

The escalation between Israel and Hezbollah is worrying. I can’t see it going any other direction than full scale war. Diplomats are going to earn their money over the next few days to stop this. 

 

I think even Hezbollah realize they have made a mistake on this one..

 

I doubt they targeted the children purposefully  but what  do they expect when firing rockets into residential areas…and Israel have every right to be angry.

 

However, is it fair for the Israelis  to complain about these children being killed after all the children that have been killed in Gaza? sure they will say they didn’t target them, but they are firing rockets into civilian areas… so what do they expect?

 

 

it’s all descending into a tit for tat  and a he did they did scenario  and , in short, I agree with you, I dont see anything else other than troops on the ground in Lebanon now…

 

Edited 28 July by MPH

[StanSP]

22 minutes ago, Foxdiamond said:

All it takes as you put it rather underplays it I think

But 'all it takes' is part of the high level of training they have, surely? To act in the right way at the most intense of times, as opposed to acting with vengeful emotion, as it appears to have been done? I can't say for sure that's how he's acted and only he knows the thinking behind it, but that's how it's perceived to me. 

[Salisbury Fox]

35 minutes ago, StanSP said:

I'm not sure, on this point, where the law allows for the police to kick and stamp on someone's head. 

 

Happy to be corrected!! 

Technically it doesn’t, but it also doesn’t say you can’t either as it has to be a reasonable use of force in the circumstances. He therefore has to justify his use of force which some seem too eager to condemn or defend him based upon watching a short clip and applying their own biases.

[StanSP]

3 minutes ago, Salisbury Fox said:

Technically it doesn’t, but it also doesn’t say you can’t either as it has to be a reasonable use of force in the circumstances. He therefore has to justify his use of force which some seem too eager to condemn or defend him based upon watching a short clip and applying their own biases.

Having watched the whole clip available, as in the extended footage, I'm still of the opinion that his use of force was not reasonable. 

 

There's no bias from me. I'm all for offenders getting their appropriate comeuppance, but kicking and stamping on the head is beyond the line for me. If the guy was charging at the officer, and was acting threatening in that moment, then fair play. But the main point for me is he had been Tasered and therefore that threat he initially was showing was significantly decreased. 

 

I'll condemn it quite strongly, and die on that hill to be fair! I appreciate that some will defend it and I will respect their opinion. I just can't seem to justify the officer's actions from my perspective. 

[Foxdiamond]

13 minutes ago, StanSP said:

But 'all it takes' is part of the high level of training they have, surely? To act in the right way at the most intense of times, as opposed to acting with vengeful emotion, as it appears to have been done? I can't say for sure that's how he's acted and only he knows the thinking behind it, but that's how it's perceived to me. 

That is why the whole situation should be investigated and the kick and stamp not seen in isolation by Joe Public 

[st albans fox]

32 minutes ago, MPH said:

 

I think even Hezbollah realize they have made a mistake on this one..

 

I doubt they targeted the children purposefully  but what  do they expect when firing rockets into residential areas…and Israel have every right to be angry.

 

However, is it fair for the Israelis  to complain about these children being killed after all the children that have been killed in Gaza? sure they will say they didn’t target them, but they are firing rockets into civilian areas… so what do they expect?

 

 

it’s all descending into a tit for tat  and a he did they did scenario  and , in short, I agree with you, I dont see anything else other than troops on the ground in Lebanon now…

 

Whether you believe them or not, the IDF will claim that they are targeting Hamas fighters and Hamas infrastructure.and that Hamas embeds itself in civilian areas. I made the point yesterday about secondary explosions.   Hamas and Hezbollah are often using much less advanced weapons which means they are fired in a general direction and land where they land.  I’m surprised that Hezbollah didn’t own up to yesterday’s strike and apologise for a terrible mistake. 

[Salisbury Fox]

1 minute ago, StanSP said:

Having watched the whole clip available, as in the extended footage, I'm still of the opinion that his use of force was not reasonable. 

 

There's no bias from me. I'm all for offenders getting their appropriate comeuppance, but kicking and stamping on the head is beyond the line for me. If the guy was charging at the officer, and was acting threatening in that moment, then fair play. But the main point for me is he had been Tasered and therefore that threat he initially was showing was significantly decreased. 

 

I'll condemn it quite strongly, and die on that hill to be fair! I appreciate that some will defend it and I will respect their opinion. I just can't seem to justify the officer's actions from my perspective. 

I appreciate that you may be trying to look at this objectively, but my point is that the police officer will have to justify his use of force based upon the threat he felt there was. We could never really understand that threat from a couple of short clips, especially given I don’t believe we know yet why they approached one of the individuals in the first place which is a factor in itself. Other factors to consider will include that the officers were armed (I can’t imagine there are many circumstances that an armed police officer is attacked in training that doesn’t result in an attempt to take the weapon), the speed of the attack, unknown number of assailants (the video shows how many but did the police know at the time given they were being attacked from behind at the start), injuries to fellow officers, what was being said e.g. I’m going to kill you etc.
 

[Trav Le Bleu]

39 minutes ago, StanSP said:

But 'all it takes' is part of the high level of training they have, surely? To act in the right way at the most intense of times, as opposed to acting with vengeful emotion, as it appears to have been done? I can't say for sure that's how he's acted and only he knows the thinking behind it, but that's how it's perceived to me. 

Some people just believe that harmful action validates retaliation of equal or greater force.

 

They don't agree with rising above anything or being the better person, nor do they understand how revenge breeds revenge.

 

People have been tried for murder because they murdered someone who murdered their friend or relative. Often it was a snap moment, a lapse. People are imperfect. Nevertheless, they still pay for their action.

 

We are all accountable. Anything else is anarchy.

Edited 28 July by Trav Le Bleu

[nnfox]

1 hour ago, StanSP said:

I'm not sure, on this point, where the law allows for the police to kick and stamp on someone's head. 

 

Happy to be corrected!! 

I was going to respond directly but @Salisbury Fox pretty much says what I was going to say:

 

21 minutes ago, Salisbury Fox said:

Technically it doesn’t, but it also doesn’t say you can’t either as it has to be a reasonable use of force in the circumstances. He therefore has to justify his use of force which some seem too eager to condemn or defend him based upon watching a short clip and applying their own biases.

Police are permitted to use force in certain circumstances - heck, they can shoot someone dead if it needs to be done.

 

This is, in law, a question of reasonableness and there are lots of things to take into account before an answer can satisfactorily be reached, not least what the thought process of the officer was.

 

I'm not saying that it's ok to kick people in the head, it should certainly be the exception rather than the rile, but this is a complex situation and the full(est) facts should be taken into consideration before reaching a conclusion. Not just a 5 second video clip.

[StanSP]

14 minutes ago, Salisbury Fox said:

I appreciate that you may be trying to look at this objectively, but my point is that the police officer will have to justify his use of force based upon the threat he felt there was. We could never really understand that threat from a couple of short clips, especially given I don’t believe we know yet why they approached one of the individuals in the first place which is a factor in itself. Other factors to consider will include that the officers were armed (I can’t imagine there are many circumstances that an armed police officer is attacked in training that doesn’t result in an attempt to take the weapon), the speed of the attack, unknown number of assailants (the video shows how many but did the police know at the time given they were being attacked from behind at the start), injuries to fellow officers, what was being said e.g. I’m going to kill you etc.
 

 

8 minutes ago, nnfox said:

I was going to respond directly but @Salisbury Fox pretty much says what I was going to say:

 

Police are permitted to use force in certain circumstances - heck, they can shoot someone dead if it needs to be done.

 

This is, in law, a question of reasonableness and there are lots of things to take into account before an answer can satisfactorily be reached, not least what the thought process of the officer was.

 

I'm not saying that it's ok to kick people in the head, it should certainly be the exception rather than the rile, but this is a complex situation and the full(est) facts should be taken into consideration before reaching a conclusion. Not just a 5 second video clip.

I agree, and the act of the investigation will perhaps reveal more of the motivations of the actions. And so be it. 

 

Even from the short clips though that have been visible, some things could be sensibly presumed, perhaps? 

 

Speed of the attack - yes it happened quickly, no qualms about that. But the attack is stopped when he's down on the floor. As quickly as he's decided to kick and stamp on his head (and not any other part of his body for instance), he could have also quickly decided not to do that action). 

 

Unknown number of assailants - again, agreed that this is a contributing factor. However what I will say is that police clearly knew who to approach and speak to and no one else seemed to get involved barring the two men that started throwing fists around.

 

Injuries to fellow officers - yeah this is shit that the cop got her nose broken and I hope the offender gets a lengthy sentence, but in no police force is it then suitable for one officer to take the law into their own hands and act vengefully in the way that he did. So I don't think this point holds as much weight as others. 

 

If there's killing threats made then that's different, but it still ends up taking me back to the point that he was Tasered and therefore incapacitated. 

 

It'd be interesting to know what the actual point, from a police perspective is, for the use of a Taser. Is it to nullify an offender and a threat to buy police time? 

 

 

[MPH]

24 minutes ago, st albans fox said:

Whether you believe them or not, the IDF will claim that they are targeting Hamas fighters and Hamas infrastructure.and that Hamas embeds itself in civilian areas. I made the point yesterday about secondary explosions.   Hamas and Hezbollah are often using much less advanced weapons which means they are fired in a general direction and land where they land.  I’m surprised that Hezbollah didn’t own up to yesterday’s strike and apologise for a terrible mistake. 

 

I do know that Hezbollah have access to precision guided missiles made in Iran.

 

 

but you would think, within the contact of ‘Jihad’, that the killing of Israeli children would be a badge of honor and they would be lining up to accept blame for it…

[st albans fox]

Just now, MPH said:

 

I do know that Hezbollah have access to precision guided missiles made in Iran.

 

 

but you would think, within the contact of ‘Jihad’, that the killing of Israeli children would be a badge of honor and they would be lining up to accept blame for it…

 There is some nuance here 

the kids were all Druze. I assume Druze who hadn’t taken full Israeli rights as they are in the very north of the Golan. Israel would  however consider them to be part of its civilian population.  Word is that Israel will not go overboard on its response. I suspect that is what they are hoping Hezbollah are thinking. wouldn’t be surprised to see a huge strike on Hezbollah weapons dumps. 

[Wymsey]

The Gladiators game show referee has died at 92.

[Mickyblueeyes]

8 hours ago, MarshallForEngland said:

I see. So what is your position on kicking the rally attendees in the head? 

Read the post you quoted. The answer is there. 

[Super_horns]

30 minutes ago, Wymsey said:

The Gladiators game show referee has died at 92.

Yes remember him well .

 

https://news.sky.com/story/amp/gladiators-ready-contenders-ready-iconic-gladiators-referee-john-anderson-dies-13186548

[FoxyPV]

58 minutes ago, st albans fox said:

 There is some nuance here 

the kids were all Druze. I assume Druze who hadn’t taken full Israeli rights as they are in the very north of the Golan. Israel would  however consider them to be part of its civilian population.  Word is that Israel will not go overboard on its response. I suspect that is what they are hoping Hezbollah are thinking. wouldn’t be surprised to see a huge strike on Hezbollah weapons dumps. 

LOL

 

Druze define as Syrian.

 

Golan Heights has been Syrian territory occupied by Israel since 67. 

[Muzzy_no7]

5 hours ago, hackneyfox said:

People from right across the political spectrum came out to march against ex BNP member Tommy Robinson and his Muslim hating, anti-vax cronies.

It wasn’t left wing whereas Yaxley Lennon’s was most certainly right wing.

So everyone in London today at that march is right wing? 

[Muzzy_no7]

16 hours ago, StanSP said:

Police officers should be given a medal

Christ 

[MPH]

1 hour ago, FoxyPV said:

LOL

 

Druze define as Syrian.

 

Golan Heights has been Syrian territory occupied by Israel since 67. 

 

 

Hmm.. Druze have willingly  fought alongside Jews for Israel in every Israeli war since its inception. It was my understanding they identify as Arab , but not necessarily Syrian. But there are seperate Druze communities living in Israel, Lebanon, Syria and the Golan heights and it’s possible that each community identify with each country..

[Jon the Hat]

5 hours ago, StanSP said:

 

I agree, and the act of the investigation will perhaps reveal more of the motivations of the actions. And so be it. 

 

Even from the short clips though that have been visible, some things could be sensibly presumed, perhaps? 

 

Speed of the attack - yes it happened quickly, no qualms about that. But the attack is stopped when he's down on the floor. As quickly as he's decided to kick and stamp on his head (and not any other part of his body for instance), he could have also quickly decided not to do that action). 

 

Unknown number of assailants - again, agreed that this is a contributing factor. However what I will say is that police clearly knew who to approach and speak to and no one else seemed to get involved barring the two men that started throwing fists around.

 

Injuries to fellow officers - yeah this is shit that the cop got her nose broken and I hope the offender gets a lengthy sentence, but in no police force is it then suitable for one officer to take the law into their own hands and act vengefully in the way that he did. So I don't think this point holds as much weight as others. 

 

If there's killing threats made then that's different, but it still ends up taking me back to the point that he was Tasered and therefore incapacitated. 

 

It'd be interesting to know what the actual point, from a police perspective is, for the use of a Taser. Is it to nullify an offender and a threat to buy police time? 

 

 

It appeared the guy who was kicked in the head had been tazered as he was lying stiff on the ground.  He was not restrained, but you don't bounce up and start hitting people after being tazered so it is hard to see how he was a specific threat which required the officer to kick him.  Hard to see this going any way other than a prosecution of the officer.  He did not act in the way his training told him to, and he will have to face the consequences.

[Salisbury Fox]

6 hours ago, StanSP said:

 

I agree, and the act of the investigation will perhaps reveal more of the motivations of the actions. And so be it. 

 

Even from the short clips though that have been visible, some things could be sensibly presumed, perhaps?  That would depend. Perhaps witness statements would corroborate this. 

 

Speed of the attack - yes it happened quickly, no qualms about that. But the attack is stopped when he's down on the floor. As quickly as he's decided to kick and stamp on his head (and not any other part of his body for instance), he could have also quickly decided not to do that action). Well the clearly supports this view, however an important consideration would include whether the officer thought the situation was under control and believed the threat to be over. 

 

Unknown number of assailants - again, agreed that this is a contributing factor. However what I will say is that police clearly knew who to approach and speak to and no one else seemed to get involved barring the two men that started throwing fists around. It was happening so fast and given that punches seem to be thrown from behind, some of the officers may not have known how many assailants there were until it was largely over. I would imagine that this would likely be this officer’s defence.

 

Injuries to fellow officers - yeah this is shit that the cop got her nose broken and I hope the offender gets a lengthy sentence, but in no police force is it then suitable for one officer to take the law into their own hands and act vengefully in the way that he did. So I don't think this point holds as much weight as others. Agreed, a lengthy sentence for the offender is required if we are to deter people from undertaking this sort of action. I would also agree that if the officer’s actions cannot be defended after a full consideration of the perceived threat then he will deserve punishment however I’m prepared to wait for the full process to conclude whereas you seem to be condemning him without a fair hearing.

 

If there's killing threats made then that's different, but it still ends up taking me back to the point that he was Tasered and therefore incapacitated. Well this is clearly something the officer is going to have to explain, which takes me back to the point of whether he felt that the threat was over, and I’m not just talking about the guy on the floor.

 

It'd be interesting to know what the actual point, from a police perspective is, for the use of a Taser. Is it to nullify an offender and a threat to buy police time? Couldn’t it be both?

 

 

 

[st albans fox]

7 hours ago, FoxyPV said:

LOL

 

Druze define as Syrian.

 

Golan Heights has been Syrian territory occupied by Israel since 67. 

Much more nuanced than that. There are approx 1 million Druze in the Middle East 

majority of Druze live in Syria. (600k) 

 

around 150k Druze live in Israel.and golan.  Approx 30% in golan where few have taken Israeli citizenship on offer to them. They are permitted to travel freely and work in Israel.  The other 110k  live within Israel’s internationally accepted borders with full civil rights ( and therefore serve in the IDF. ).

 

netenyahu’s govts have not helped the golan Druze with its progressive settlement policy. Ministers who attended some of the funerals yesterday did not receive much of a welcome.