Also In The News - part 3

[bmt]

12 hours ago, MPH said:

 

 you can’t decide someone is complicit in genocide for deleting this post

Made a lot of sense after a few shandies haha

[bmt]

6 hours ago, st albans fox said:

No problem with having an opinion 

denying someone an alternative opinion isn’t a great starting point and inferring complicity for not agreeing with your point reflects the whole problem that exists in the region. 

Fair point.

[bmt]

3 hours ago, ClaphamFox said:

He clearly believes he can. That’s the level of moral authority he possesses 😉

It's nothing to do with moral authority it's just looking at a situation objectively. Yeah my post was stupid but what is going on now is abhorrent 

[Mickyblueeyes]

2 hours ago, Jon the Hat said:

If the people of Gaza can find leadership who will build them a sustainable mini state and not one obsessed with attacking the Jews for an unobtainable goal that might help.  Look at how Gaza was before the Israeli left last time, and how it was before this kicked off.  

Sorry but couldn’t you flip this and say even if the Gazans found leadership working towards a sustainable state, it’s irrelevant given the long standing leadership team in Israel. You know the Govt our Govt is backing blindly ? The one that the basic idea of a Palestinian state is considered a non starter by many in the cabinet and subsequently sharing the obsession of their Hamas counterparts ?

 

The cabinet that includes a deputy PM who openly believes in the expulsion of all non-Jews (not just Muslims, ALL non-Jews) because that’s Jewish land - a man heavily criticised and hated by Orthodox Jewish groups. How about Head of Security, Ben Givir - a CONVICTED terrorist who happily admits a picture of a killer of 22 innocent civilians sits on top of his mantle piece. A man who said the spitting on Christians in Jerusalem is not only funny but should be protected and encouraged. A man who happily lives in a settlement illegal according to international law to show his support for the displacement of innocent families. 
 

How about Nethanyahu who was championing the Hamas cause (as it worked against the peace process) only a few years ago. 
 

Both sides are murderous scumbags. The problem is our taxes are currently backing one of those group of scumbags when we should be calling them out. 

 

This approach, currently, that is being supported by our Govt (and high ranking opposition) is only going to create more heartache which will lead to many years of conflict which, the regimes of both entities are encouraging. 
 

 

Edited 28 October 2023 by Mickyblueeyes

[MPH]

2 hours ago, Jon the Hat said:

If the people of Gaza can find leadership who will build them a sustainable mini state and not one obsessed with attacking the Jews for an unobtainable goal that might help.  Look at how Gaza was before the Israeli left last time, and how it was before this kicked off.  

 

interestingly there WAS a somewhat competent  ( I use that term lightly) government structure  in Gaza  with the Palestinian Authority that was governed by Fatah who, in comparison to Hamas , had political ambitions  in which they wanted to achieve their goals but they were  violently  and murderously driven out of Gaza by Hamas.. so it might be a little unfair to say ‘ if the people of Gaza can find leadership’  as they DID find leadership..

[MPH]

37 minutes ago, bmt said:

Made a lot of sense after a few shandies haha

 

i do very much sympathize with what you were saying though..

[st albans fox]

22 minutes ago, Mickyblueeyes said:

Sorry but couldn’t you flip this and say even if the Gazans found leadership working towards a sustainable state, it’s irrelevant given the long standing leadership team in Israel. You know the Govt our Govt is backing blindly ? The one that the basic idea of a Palestinian state is considered a non starter by many in the cabinet and subsequently sharing the obsession of their Hamas counterparts ?

 

The cabinet that includes a deputy PM who openly believes in the expulsion of all non-Jews (not just Muslims, ALL non-Jews) because that’s Jewish land - a man heavily criticised and hated by Orthodox Jewish groups. How about Head of Security, Ben Givir - a CONVICTED terrorist who happily admits a picture of a killer of 22 innocent civilians sits on top of his mantle piece. A man who said the spitting on Christians in Jerusalem is not only funny but should be protected and encouraged. A man who happily lives in a settlement illegal according to international law to show his support for the displacement of innocent families. 
 

How about Nethanyahu who was championing the Hamas cause (as it worked against the peace process) only a few years ago. 
 

Both sides are murderous scumbags. The problem is our taxes are currently backing one of those group of scumbags when we should be calling them out. 

 

This approach, currently, that is being supported by our Govt (and high ranking opposition) is only going to create more heartache which will lead to many years of conflict which, the regimes of both entities are encouraging. 
 

 

Israel will not elect BN in the next GE which won’t be far away whereas Hamas would stay in control in Gaza 

[Mickyblueeyes]

1 minute ago, st albans fox said:

Israel will not elect BN in the next GE which won’t be far away whereas Hamas would stay in control in Gaza 

The reality is, it isn’t just BN to be worried about. His cabinet contains a convicted terrorist. We shouldn’t be supporting any govt, anywhere in the world that includes such an individual. Not to mention the other nutjobs who find themselves onto our tv telling us about good and evil. 
 

The point is, the “reset” is not just needed in Gaza. It’s very much needed in Israel too - alongside its allies being the UK and US in its approach to this situation.

[st albans fox]

20 minutes ago, Mickyblueeyes said:

The reality is, it isn’t just BN to be worried about. His cabinet contains a convicted terrorist. We shouldn’t be supporting any govt, anywhere in the world that includes such an individual. Not to mention the other nutjobs who find themselves onto our tv telling us about good and evil. 
 

The point is, the “reset” is not just needed in Gaza. It’s very much needed in Israel too - alongside its allies being the UK and US in its approach to this situation.

The cabinet is a consequence of a lack of sensible partners prepared to enter coalition with BN’s likud 

that will change at the next GE 

 

we have a situation where both sides are being governed by people desperate to stay in power as their primary focus  - netenyahu to stay out of court and Hamas to stay alive.  

[Mickyblueeyes]

33 minutes ago, st albans fox said:

The cabinet is a consequence of a lack of sensible partners prepared to enter coalition with BN’s likud 

that will change at the next GE 

 

we have a situation where both sides are being governed by people desperate to stay in power as their primary focus  - netenyahu to stay out of court and Hamas to stay alive.  

You and I certainly agree on this. 
 

i do have two further concerns which I am unsure as to how it will resolve the Israeli side of this (to be fair, I have the same concerns on Palestinian side but they are blatantly obvious).

 

1. Nethanyahu has been in power as a result of subsequent re-elections since 2009. He’s also been in power before between 96-99 where he caused real issues with the Oslo Accord and yet was re-elected in 2009. Has public perception in Israel change that much to keep a brute like this (or those of his thinking) out of power. This situation perhaps hasn’t helped that. 
 

2. The position of mainstream politicians in both the UK and US has been frightening. They’ve repeatedly showed a clear lack of knowledge of the conflict and in our case, the leader of the opposition has again been found lacking. I don’t see that changing anything especially with the position of the opposition. It isn’t helping to say the least. 

Edited 28 October 2023 by Mickyblueeyes

[st albans fox]

1 hour ago, Mickyblueeyes said:

You and I certainly agree on this. 
 

i do have two further concerns which I am unsure as to how it will resolve the Israeli side of this (to be fair, I have the same concerns on Palestinian side but they are blatantly obvious).

 

1. Nethanyahu has been in power as a result of subsequent re-elections since 2009. He’s also been in power before between 96-99 where he caused real issues with the Oslo Accord and yet was re-elected in 2009. Has public perception in Israel change that much to keep a brute like this (or those of his thinking) out of power. This situation perhaps hasn’t helped that. 
 

2. The position of mainstream politicians in both the UK and US has been frightening. They’ve repeatedly showed a clear lack of knowledge of the conflict and in our case, the leader of the opposition has again been found lacking. I don’t see that changing anything especially with the position of the opposition. It isn’t helping to say the least. 

Regarding point 1, netenyahu was continually able to form coalition governments because he played the strong man and just had the most seats each GE  - the only leader who could apparently guarantee security.  There were five elections between 2019 and 2022. (Sometimes democracy doesn’t work that well!). That mask has now firmly slipped - the public aren’t stupid. Just as golda meir was unable to survive the aftermath of the Yom Kippur war in 1973 (which remember was won by an Israel who were initially surprised and outflanked by Egypt, Jordan and Syria) so will that same fate befall BN.   Likud may well jettison him to try and avoid a really bad defeat. 

[Mickyblueeyes]

5 hours ago, st albans fox said:

Regarding point 1, netenyahu was continually able to form coalition governments because he played the strong man and just had the most seats each GE  - the only leader who could apparently guarantee security.  There were five elections between 2019 and 2022. (Sometimes democracy doesn’t work that well!). That mask has now firmly slipped - the public aren’t stupid. Just as golda meir was unable to survive the aftermath of the Yom Kippur war in 1973 (which remember was won by an Israel who were initially surprised and outflanked by Egypt, Jordan and Syria) so will that same fate befall BN.   Likud may well jettison him to try and avoid a really bad defeat. 

I agree his time is over but the far right wing of Israelies does appeal to electorate. I mean the illegal settlers are a brutal set of right wing murderers, they won’t settle for some suggesting any sort of peace with the Palestinians. It will be interesting what comes out of this. 
 

Realistically, on both sides, it’s such a brutal hatred, which is further ignited by fools and war mongers from the UK, US and Iranian Govts/politicians - I just don’t see how you can get sensible individuals with genuine hope for peace in play. And that’s what both sides want. 

[st albans fox]

32 minutes ago, Mickyblueeyes said:

I agree his time is over but the far right wing of Israelies does appeal to electorate. I mean the illegal settlers are a brutal set of right wing murderers, they won’t settle for some suggesting any sort of peace with the Palestinians. It will be interesting what comes out of this. 
 

Realistically, on both sides, it’s such a brutal hatred, which is further ignited by fools and war mongers from the UK, US and Iranian Govts/politicians - I just don’t see how you can get sensible individuals with genuine hope for peace in play. And that’s what both sides want. 

The ‘settlers’ are not large enough in number to swing an election but the PR formula of Israeli democracy often delivers unstable govt and right wing groups will have enough seats to sometimes be ‘king maker’ and have disproportionate influence to their vote. 
 

israel has tended to vote for right wing parties since 2005 because of Hamas being in control of Gaza - the right wing parties promise to protect the citizens and the electorate drift in that direction.  Likud currently have 27% of the knesset seats 

 

israeli arabs make up 20% of the electorate -  unfortunately for them they have several Arab politocal parties chasing them and their voice is muted in govt because of this. 

[StanSP]

Apparently Hamas are/were ready to let hostages leave if aid can come into the area. 

 

Are Israel willing to let them die if it means they can wrestle control back of Gaza? 

[westernpark]

22 minutes ago, StanSP said:

Apparently Hamas are/were ready to let hostages leave if aid can come into the area. 

 

Are Israel willing to let them die if it means they can wrestle control back of Gaza? 

Hamas are a terrorist group, why would Israel or anyone believe anything they are ‘apparently’ willing to do? 
I find this post almost to be blaming Israel for the potential deaths of the hostages, rather than Hamas! (I’m sure this wasn’t your intention) 

I would like to point out that I do not agree with Israel’s reaction and actions to the terrorist attack but Hamas are solely responsible for the fate of those hostages.

Edited 29 October 2023 by westernpark
Add the word potential

[StanSP]

10 minutes ago, westernpark said:

Hamas are a terrorist group, why would Israel or anyone believe anything they are ‘apparently’ willing to do? 
I find this post almost to be blaming Israel for the potential deaths of the hostages, rather than Hamas! (I’m sure this wasn’t your intention) 

I would like to point out that I do not agree with Israel’s reaction and actions to the terrorist attack but Hamas are solely responsible for the fate of those hostages.

Yeah that's not the intention, but my feeling is that Israel are just going to continue obliterating Gaza no matter what happens. They're showing no signs of relenting. 

[westernpark]

2 minutes ago, StanSP said:

Yeah that's not the intention, but my feeling is that Israel are just going to continue obliterating Gaza no matter what happens. They're showing no signs of relenting. 

Yeah it’s clear that they’ve written off the hostages, looks like Israeli’s are starting to realise this too. However , Sky News said yesterday that Netanhayu is being taunted domestically with the fact that in 2015 he released the mastermind behind this terrorist attack in exchange for one Israeli IDF hostage. 

[MPH]

21 hours ago, st albans fox said:

Israel will not elect BN in the next GE which won’t be far away whereas Hamas would stay in control in Gaza 

 

I’m not so sure on this. Because of the Hamas attack, they will want to elect a leader who will show a strong approach and ‘control’ Hamas. if he can successfully pass the Hamas attack off as a security services failure AND decimate what Hamas has to offer, he could be a  Shoe in for the next 10+ years, unfortunately..

Edited 29 October 2023 by MPH

[st albans fox]

8 hours ago, MPH said:

 

I’m not so sure on this. Because of the Hamas attack, they will want to elect a leader who will show a strong approach and ‘control’ Hamas. if he can successfully pass the Hamas attack off as a security services failure AND decimate what Hamas has to offer, he could be a  Shoe in for the next 10+ years, unfortunately..

The only intelligent thing he’s done is bring some other party leaders to form a govt  of national unity to try and palm off the stench of responsibility. 
 

however, that simply won’t be enough - he’s politically toast irrespective of what happens with Hamas - infact what will transpire in Gaza with many IDF conscript casualties will only make things worse for him.  I could see Likud getting even getting rid to try and retain a respectable vote share. 

[MPH]

43 minutes ago, st albans fox said:

The only intelligent thing he’s done is bring some other party leaders to form a govt  of national unity to try and palm off the stench of responsibility. 
 

however, that simply won’t be enough - he’s politically toast irrespective of what happens with Hamas - infact what will transpire in Gaza with many IDF conscript casualties will only make things worse for him.  I could see Likud getting even getting rid to try and retain a respectable vote share. 

 

thats the thing though. I don’t think he IS political roast because the simple fact he’s been able to link up with the opposition will show you the deep rooted feeling amongst the Israeli people against Hamas. Another way to look at it is that the opposition had no option but to form an alliance over this simply so he didn’t get left behind in the polls and amongst popular opinion.

 

Also, I don’t think he cares one bit about international feeling when it comes to, as he sees this, defending the nation of Israel. Neither does the international community vote for the Israeli Prime Minister.

Edited 29 October 2023 by MPH

[st albans fox]

35 minutes ago, MPH said:

 

thats the thing though. I don’t think he IS political roast because the simple fact he’s been able to link up with the opposition will show you the deep rooted feeling amongst the Israeli people against Hamas. Another way to look at it is that the opposition had no option but to form an alliance over this simply so he didn’t get left behind in the polls and amongst popular opinion.

 

Also, I don’t think he cares one bit about international feeling when it comes to, as he sees this, defending the nation of Israel. Neither does the international community vote for the Israeli Prime Minister.

There is no point is debating any further what may or may not happen with the future of BN because no one can predict the future 

 

he’s toast though 

 

[MPH]

53 minutes ago, st albans fox said:

There is no point is debating any further what may or may not happen with the future of BN because no one can predict the future 

 

he’s toast though 

 

 

 

You had to get the last in there one last time.

 

and I hate that it comes across as debating, I didn’t mean to make anything sound as harsh as that, just two people discussing their thoughts

[st albans fox]

6 minutes ago, MPH said:

 

 

You had to get the last in there one last time.

 

and I hate that it comes across as debating, I didn’t mean to make anything sound as harsh as that, just two people discussing their thoughts

Not harsh - debating is pretty much the same as discussing 

if I wasn’t really confident then I wouldn’t be pushing the point 

 

 

[MPH]

1 minute ago, st albans fox said:

Not harsh - debating is pretty much the same as discussing 

if I wasn’t really confident then I wouldn’t be pushing the point 

 

 

yeah I know but debating has a bit more of an aggressive undertone and I just didn’t see it that way

[Nalis]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-67258939

 

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